Does God relate to Non-Christians?

[Tantum_ergo]

Could you give us some specifics, fin? It’s hard to understand what you’re referring to without a bit more information.

 

[Montalban]

What if God purposely relates (relate may be the wrong word to use) to different cultures and people in different ways?

Then he’d be denying his own ‘ways’.

Christianity makes an exclusive claim to the truth. So does Islam. Therefore they both can’t be true at the same time.

Your idea of God would be that he’d be telling all these groups that they are the only ones who have the truth, and would thus be lying

 

[Montalban]

True, from a Christian viewpoint . However, from the viewpoint and experience of millions, the Christian God is not the only, or even the highest, God (though most polytheists would likely allow that the Christian God may well exist but that His or His followers’ claims that He is the only God are incorrect). Based on the belief and real spiritual experiences of these people (which are just as real as those of Christians when compared by the same criteria), there are a multitude of Gods.

It’s illogical to accept a system that accepts all systems, including those that are themselves exclusivist.

Next there’s the problem that if I accepted a multitude of gods including a god worshipped as an exclusive god then I would need to reconcile how such a god allows his/her followers to believe an un-truth - that he/she is not the only god.

 

[Valke2]

Then he’d be denying his own ‘ways’.

Christianity makes an exclusive claim to the truth. So does Islam. Therefore they both can’t be true at the same time.

Your idea of God would be that he’d be telling all these groups that they are the only ones who have the truth, and would thus be lying

we are finite beings and our reasoning is finite. Accepting that God is infiinite than it is possible there are several ways, even if they seem to us to conflict with each other.

 

[Montalban]

we are finite beings and our reasoning is finite. Accepting that God is infinite than it is possible there are several ways, even if they seem to us to conflict with each other.

I accept that there can be seemingly conflicting ideals.

Such as “God is knowable” and “God is unknowable” the fact that we know of a God that is unknowable would itself seem to be a paradox. I accept that both are true, because it’s in its own way logical to know that something can be unknowable - a bit like one can describe something as indescribable.

However it’s different from you saying “My way of belief is the only truth” and me saying “My way of belief is the only truth” and even though our concepts of the truth specifically deny the other person’s ideas of truth, saying that we’re both right is to me unacceptable

And there you go, you’re trying to argue that my belief in it being unacceptable, is wrong! You are thus creating a paradox by arguing against me on this.

 

[Valke2]

I accept that there can be seemingly conflicting ideals.

Such as “God is knowable” and “God is unknowable” the fact that we know of a God that is unknowable would itself seem to be a paradox. I accept that both are true, because it’s in its own way logical to know that something can be unknowable - a bit like one can describe something as indescribable.

However it’s different from you saying “My way of belief is the only truth” and me saying “My way of belief is the only truth” and even though our concepts of the truth specifically deny the other person’s ideas of truth, saying that we’re both right is to me unacceptable

And there you go, you’re trying to argue that my belief in it being unacceptable, is wrong! You are thus creating a paradox by arguing against me on this.

So what’s wrong with paradox? You can embrace an infinite God without there being paradox. You can’t have infinite justice and infinite mercy without running into paradox. No one is going to argue that God is only justice. But if God is infinite Justice how can there be room for anything else?

 

[Montalban]

So what’s wrong with paradox? You can embrace an infinite God without there being paradox. You can’t have infinite justice and infinite mercy without running into paradox. No one is going to argue that God is only justice. But if God is infinite Justice how can there be room for anything else?

I’m trying to ascertain exactly what it is you mean by ‘infinite justice’

God has stated what his justice involves and it doesn’t allow for everything. So it’s not ‘infinite’ in that way.

You maintain the possibility that there’s a plethora of different interpretations of God’s will that are all valid.

Imagine if I said “God says that killing people is bad”. And you said “God says that killing people is good” these two ways are mutually exclusive. God allowing everything to be true would not be justice because it would immediately negate free will, because it’s not free will if there’s no real choice.

Unless you wish to argue that “Killing is bad” only for those that believe like me, and that only us will be judged by those particular interpretations. This would mean that God’s not setting the agenda, but we are; and that what is true simply depends upon what we believe.

The ‘infinite’ part of it is that it is absolute. The one truth is everywhere the one truth

 

[lumendelumine]

Mike,

relativism only seems persuasive as long as you don’t look at the claims of the different religions.

• Pagan polytheisms (including today’s Hinduism) don’t claim to be “the truth” or worship any true god. (They are worshipping the transcendent, though ultimately unknowable powers of the universe by giving them names and histories [myths]. That’s why pagan gods are so easily interchangable and adaptable to different cultures.)
• Buddhism doesn’t claim to be “the truth”. (It claims to be an ascertained philosophical path. But that’s about it.)

The same goes for a multitude of other religions that combine the mythological (pagan) and the philosophical way.

It’s quite different with the three monotheistic religions. They claim that the One True God has actually revealed Himself to men.

• Judaism claims to worship the One True God Who has revealed Himself to one people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Such a religious claim was completely unique in pagan antiquity!
• Christianity is a direct spin-off of Judaism and claims to be its fulfillment, through God’s revelation by becoming Man in Jesus Christ. It claims to bring the One True God, hitherto only worshipped by the Jews, to all people of the world, thus opening them up for His redemptive will.
• Islam claims to worship the One True God that also Jews and Christians worship, but whose previous revelations have been “distorted” by these. Islams claims that God (Allah) has *revealed * himself again to the prophet Mohammed, rectified some “misconceptions” (such as the divinity and crucifixion of Jesus…) and established his definite revelation.

So, you see, the key is in revelation. As soon as you have concluded that God has the power and the will to reveal Himself, your choice is narrowed to to those religions that claim that He did so. Then, if you accept the claims of Judaism, then look into the claims of Christianity (that builds on the claims of Judaism) and compare them with the claims of Islam (that contradict the Christian and partly also the Jewish claims).

So, you see, all evidence from the claims of religions really points to the direction that there has to be a ‘true religion’, as soon as we accept that God reveals Himself. (Of course, if He doesn’t then it doesn’t really matter.)

The fault in your reasoning is thus mainly that you conclude that God has revealed Himself in different fashions to different peoples. But He didn’t - and no-one says so, except Western syncretists, who are ultimately working from Judaeo-Christian premises anyway.

Otherwise, for a good overview on the relationship between Christianity and paganism, read G. K. Chesterton’s classic *The Everlasting Man *(read here online).

 

[KarenNC]

It’s illogical to accept a system that accepts all systems, including those that are themselves exclusivist.

Not if you believe that those that claim they have the exclusive market are wrong. I have no problem believing that there is a Christian God and that He may indeed be the only God for Christians, just that He is not the only God for the entire universe. Henotheism makes sense to me.

Next there’s the problem that if I accepted a multitude of gods including a god worshipped as an exclusive god then I would need to reconcile how such a god allows his/her followers to believe an un-truth - that he/she is not the only god.

I’m afraid you’ll have to take that one up with your Deity. There is also the option that it is not the Deity who is mistaken, but His followers in interpretation.

 

[KarenNC]

**- Pagan polytheisms (including today’s Hinduism) don’t claim to be “the truth” or worship any true god. (They are worshipping the transcendent, though ultimately unknowable powers of the universe by giving them names and histories [myths]. That’s why pagan gods are so easily interchangable and adaptable to different cultures.) **

False assumption. Polytheists do not claim to have the “Sole Truth” but that does not mean they do not believe that their religion is true. Polytheists do indeed claim to worship several “true” Gods, just not that any one of them is the only God. How does a “transcendent though ultimately unknowable power of the universe” differ from a God?

Myths (including the Jewish, Christian and Muslim ones) are stories, sacred stories. Stories that tell a person how to relate to other humans and how to relate to that which is beyond current human understanding. They are the attempts by people limited by human language to describe interactions with that which is beyond humanity.

**Judaism claims to worship the One True God Who has revealed Himself to one people, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Such a religious claim was completely unique in pagan antiquity!

What exactly are the parameters for saying that a deity has “revealed” Him/Herself?**

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

What if God purposely relates (relate may be the wrong word to use) to different cultures and people in different ways?

For instance, God originally related to Jews in the form of Jesus Christ (he was a Jew) which fullfilled there ancient Hebrew/Jewish prophesies, and taught them God’s Word in a way that they would eventually accept. The fact that Christianity spread much further than the Jews is a good thing, but maybe the Jewish people were the primary target.

What if did the same thing happened with the culture that developed Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam among the more common non-Christian faiths? Maybe he knew that because of the many different cultures in the world, he had to relate differently to them to make his Word stick and flourish. In that case, does that make a good Christian any better than a good Hindu?

Most of the world’s many religions have several things in common concerning peace, love, etc. (assuming these faith’s good virtues are not twisted to evil to fit in someone’s agenda). Maybe these things are the cornerstones of God’s Word and thats why these different faith’s have them in common.

I find it very hard to believe that all the non-Christians in the world are doomed, even though many of them have lived good and peaceful lives. Now the Catholic Church does make some allowance for people who do not know the Church yet make an honest and sincere attempt to follow God the best of their ability. However, is the Christian God actually maybe the same as the Hindu one, the Muslim one, etc.?

What do you think? Please try to think a little deeper than “No, if they are not Christian and/or Catholic they are doomed”. I hesitiated posting this knowing some of the audience, but I thought I’d give it shot.

Just a reminder as to the topic of this thread…

Continue your discussion with this in mind.

Rachel

 

[hermitcrab]

Forgive me, please, if this is not on thread… My reading of the OT is that the God of Abraham and Isaac, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is not the only god. Loyalty to Him was something the Israelites struggled with and failed in often.

“Thou shalt have none other gods…”

Jesus opens the door to all believers; Jewish and non-Jewish, if they choose to follow Him.

“I am the Way, the Truth and the Life… no man comes to the Father but by me.”’

It is hard to see divisions among Christians with the increase of relativism obscuring the Great Commission.

Yes, God relates to all; but there is a real choice to be made as to whether all relate to Him in Christ. And how we who know Jesus act to each other and to others can help that choice or hinder it.

Makes me shiver.

 

[Montalban]

"Montalban:

It’s illogical to accept a system that accepts all systems, including those that are themselves exclusivist.

Not if you believe that those that claim they have the exclusive market are wrong. I have no problem believing that there is a Christian God and that He may indeed be the only God for Christians, just that He is not the only God for the entire universe. Henotheism makes sense to me.

The problem’s already been stated. I state my religion is an absolute truth. You state that it isn’t, whilst at the same time establishing that your faith is an absolute truth - that there’s no one religion that is true. Making your one religious view true. Which is to argue against itself as you state no one religious view has the absolute truth. You’re in effect saying “No one person is right (in an absolute sense)”, which means that even you (one person) can’t be right. You simply offer a self-refuting belief.

Further, to say that there is a Christian God only the God of Christians is to turn the universe upside-down. It makes man supreme because my God can only be my God if I believe in him. He is dependant on me.

Imagine if you would that my God says he’s going to punish me for being evil. I say “Okay, I’ll simply stop believing in you”. Suddenly he can’t punish me because (according to you) he’s no longer my God.
"Montalban:

Next there’s the problem that if I accepted a multitude of gods including a god worshipped as an exclusive god then I would need to reconcile how such a god allows his/her followers to believe an un-truth - that he/she is not the only god.

I’m afraid you’ll have to take that one up with your Deity. There is also the option that it is not the Deity who is mistaken, but His followers in interpretation.

That’s the point I don’t believe my God lies. You obviously do. For you you’re arguing that my God must be allowing us to be mistaken by coming to us and telling us that we’re the only true faith. And it doesn’t stop there, there’s many other exclusivist faiths, most notably Islam.

also… lest I be deemed going off-topic…

From my persepective, in relation to the OP, my God, the only God in absolute terms, does not deal with non-Christians through masks pretending to be other gods so he relates to non-Christians.

 

[Montalban]

Forgive me, please, if this is not on thread… My reading of the OT is that the God of Abraham and Isaac, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is not the only god. Loyalty to Him was something the Israelites struggled with and failed in often.

“Thou shalt have none other gods…”

For some people can make a false god and that should not be their god.

God is the only god.

If, for instance, you dedicated your life solely to the accumulation of wealth you’ve made money your god. This does not mean that simply because you’ve made it YOUR god that it becomes another like God.

 

[fin]

Could you give us some specifics, fin? It’s hard to understand what you’re referring to without a bit more information.

Hi Tantumergo. I was referring to, for example, yoga. i know that it originated in India and all. many people here are saying don’t do yoga for exercise, it’s pagan, blahblahblah. but we’re forgetting, maybe yoga really is good for the body. As long as we are not worshipping some false idol or doing anything against our Faith or offending God, then I don’t think we should run away from anything that’s labeled as “new age”. after all, Yoga is a very old form of meditation/exercise.

And yes. I do agree with the OP’s opinions. the Church has the fullness of truth. but God does work through other people, even unbelievers, because He works in mysterious ways.

 

[Montalban]

And yes. I do agree with the OP’s opinions. the Church has the fullness of truth. but God does work through other people, even unbelievers, because He works in mysterious ways.

I look at it more like God’s working through them, but the message is getting much more inference than within Christianity, and thus the results are (often) far more removed from God’s intent.

The false religions put barriers up between people and God.

Yoga, by the way, is one of them.

 

[Montalban]

Or, another way of putting it is God is always loving us. So he’s there for everyone, Christan or not.

However some people are better and building walls between themselves and God’s love.

Walls such as Islam, which is to turn your back on God and worship a created being called Al-lah. Or, to a lesser extent, if you’re a Christian and you follow non-Christian (or in effect anti-Christian) practices, such as astrology, yoga, tarrot, etc.

 

[cheddarsox]

I’ve stayed out of this discussion till now because I wasn’t sure how to answer. I mean if the Christian God related to others…wouldn’t He show himself as the Christian God?

The Divine relates to me, but whether or not it is the same God Christians worship, I don’t know.

When I was Christian, God didn’t relate to me the way Christians describe Him working in their lives, yet I knew the Divine. I stayed with the Divine I knew, and while it shares some characteristics with the Christian God, it clearly is not what Christians are referring to when they describe their God.

I am certain of my faith, but agnostic about others. I don’t think people are just fantasizing their experiences, so I assume there is something behind them, but I only KNOW my own faith and my own experience. I don’t know if the one Divine manifests itself differently to different cultures/people, though that seems a rational explanation, in some ways, for what we observe.

I expect that much of what we know of religion is the one Divine revealed to humanity through the many filters of different cultures and times. I don’t think that the human mind can fully comprehend,know and experience all of the Divine, so none of us has the full truth, we have what ourselves and our ancestors have cobbled together from our collected experience of the Divine.

I only know one Divine, it is not as Christianity traditionally describes it, but it definitely relates to me.

cheddar

 

[Montalban]

I’ve stayed out of this discussion till now because I wasn’t sure how to answer. I mean if the Christian God related to others…wouldn’t He show himself as the Christian God?
cheddar

This is similar to ‘why do people sin?’ We know there’s a God, but people still sin because we are fallen creatures. Sin is a denial of God’s love. Likewise God who is love wishes us to love him. People being people turn their back on God, as he continually calls us.

Some as I’ve noted build up walls to prevent them from hearing God.

 

[hermitcrab]

That is not what the OT or Jesus teaches.

For some people can make a false god and that should not be their god.

God is the only god.

If, for instance, you dedicated your life solely to the accumulation of wealth you’ve made money your god. This does not mean that simply because you’ve made it YOUR god that it becomes another like God.