Does God save sinners apart from the person and work of Jesus Christ?

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All salvation which occurs is through the grace and mercy and work of God in Christ…whether the Carpenter from Nazareth is known or not…It is God in Christ who saves us…no one else.
 
All salvation is from Christ, but we shouldn’t be too quick to decide people outside of the church are outside of Christ even as we proclaim the Gospel to them. I think that’s what raphinal was saying.

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp is saying it better than I am, if I am saying it right at all.
 
spoiltvictorian said:
All salvation is from Christ, but we shouldn’t be too quick to decide people outside of the church are outside of Christ even as we proclaim the Gospel to them. I think that’s what raphinal was saying.

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp is saying it better than I am, if I am saying it right at all.
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That’s a good post and something we should explore. Can you explain your view of hope of sinners outside of Christ? I believe Raphinal was implying that we are not condemned until we hear and reject the gospel. I think Christ came to remove our condemnation instead of condemning us since we are already condemned prior to hearing the gospel (John 3). I’m open to hear other perspectives.
 
2nd_Adam said:
That’s a good post and something we should explore. Can you explain your view of hope of sinners outside of Christ? I believe Raphinal was implying that we are not condemned until we hear and reject the gospel. I think Christ came to remove our condemnation instead of condemning us since we are already condemned prior to hearing the gospel (John 3). I’m open to hear other perspectives.
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As I understand it, we cannot offer them any hope. We just don’t flip that around and say they’re damned because Christ might work their salvation in a way we don’t understand. I guess I don’t agree with raphinal that we can say to a certain person, “you haven’t heard us preach the Gospel and therefore you’re fine.” I do agree with him that we cannot say, “you haven’t heard us preach the Gospel and therefore you are damned.” Again, that’s speaking to an individual.
 
spoiltvictorian said:
As I understand it, we cannot offer them any hope. We just don’t flip that around and say they’re damned because Christ might work their salvation in a way we don’t understand. I guess I don’t agree with raphinal that we can say to a certain person, “you haven’t heard us preach the Gospel and therefore you’re fine.” I do agree with him that we cannot say, “you haven’t heard us preach the Gospel and therefore you are damned.” Again, that’s speaking to an individual.
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I think this is one of the Bible passages that we need to wrestle with on our thread.

The Message of Salvation to All - Romans 10

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

On our virtual reality missionary thread of saving the natives, are those natives condemned prior to the crash landing of the plane?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=391332&page=3
 
2nd_Adam said:
That’s a good post and something we should explore. Can you explain your view of hope of sinners outside of Christ? I believe Raphinal was implying that we are not condemned until we hear and reject the gospel. I think Christ came to remove our condemnation instead of condemning us since we are already condemned prior to hearing the gospel (John 3). I’m open to hear other perspectives.
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Actually, that is not what I was saying at all. In fact, I made no provisions as to the disposition of those who, through no fault of their own, had no chance to choose or reject Christ. I wanted YOUR position on it.

My position, as set forth by the Catholic Church and based on the Bible, is that those who had no chance to know Christ, through no fault of their own, are judged based on the natural law by a means unknown to us. It is possible that they are judged by God who knows HOW they would have chosen if they had known of Christ. That part does not matter.

Once Jesus finished his work on earth, we all fell under the New Covenant, even if we do not know it. Anyone who makes it to heaven does so because of the Work of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

There is a logical hole if you say “If you did not accept Jesus, you go to hell, even if it was impossible to know him,” then say “God is merciful and Just and fair.” The two things cannot both be true.

Now, once we know of Christ, as Jesus said, more has been given to us and more is expected. There is hope, however. If we know of Christ, we know of God’s mercy and forgiveness. Though we may sin, we know that we may always repent and God will forgive us.

The anti-Christian will say that we are better of not to know, as then we can escape under that blanket. However, if we choose not to know, we are worse off. Further, it is possible that it is harder to make it without a personal knowledge of Christ. That is speculation on my part
 
2nd_Adam said:
Does God save sinners apart from the person and work of Jesus Christ?
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No. All people who are saved are saved through Christ.

Does this mean that someone who knows nothing about Christ or has only been taught lies about Him will go to hell? Some Christians will say yes.

Catholics believe God loves these people too and wants them to be saved. It is thus possible that He can save them through the person and work of Jesus Christ.

❤️ Love is Patient
 
2nd_Adam said:
That’s a good post and something we should explore. Can you explain your view of hope of sinners outside of Christ? I believe Raphinal was implying that we are not condemned until we hear and reject the gospel. I think Christ came to remove our condemnation instead of condemning us since we are already condemned prior to hearing the gospel (John 3). I’m open to hear other perspectives.
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Sure. There are those who’d never heard of Christ who were still saved. In the parable of Lazarus and Dives, Lazarus is portrayed in the bosom of Abraham. There seems to be pretty strong evidence that the Old Testament faithful Jews were saved and are now in Heaven (this may have been why there was a resurrection of dead saints in Jerusalem at Jesus’ death).

If it’s true that they’re saved, they’re saved because they followed YHWH, Who we now know to be a Trinity. So in following God the Father, they’re following God the Son, and vice versa. John 12:45, Luke 10:16, etc. A rejection of Christ is a rejection of YHWH, but following YHWH is following Christ, since He’s part of the Godhead.

We should be careful not to get too much in the weeds, because there’s a lot we don’t know. But we do know that there were faithful Jews in OT times who were saved and who (1) didn’t know the person of Christ [or didn’t know they knew Christ, at least]; and (2) probably would have said that there was no Trinity if asked. So if they can be saved through their ignorance, we have hope for:
  • Babies
  • The severely mentally retarded
  • Those who lived in the pre-1492 New World
  • Those who honestly seek God, but who are confused on certain issues (including perhaps, whether Jesus Christ is God, or just the Son of God)
  • Those who believe in God, but who unknowingly believe in false prophets as well (Islam, for example).
We know from Luke 12:48 that “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.” So conversely, those who have fewer resources to know about God seem like they’ll be judged by different (and lower) standard than those of us who have been given much more. Do we know exactly how a Perfect God will judge them? Nope, and it’s not our business. We do know that the purpose of every human life is to have relationship with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and to share in a Life of Communion with Them forever. So those who have little, we should aid, by giving them more. Arguments that we should leave them in their ignorance, since they’ll be more likely to be forgiven are perverse, and against the Gospel.

We can say this, though. The most important thing isn’t that we know Christ. It’s that He knows us. Matthew 7:23.
 
We basically have two kinds of revelation from our Great Triune God. We have universal general revelation in which all mankind receive by our conscience and through natural revelation in what God has made. General or natural revelation leaves mankind without excuse and does not rescue us from our condemned conditon. All humans receive general revelation which condemns us as sinners.

We also have special revelation which saves us from our already condemned condition. Special revelation is about the person and work of Jesus Christ, or Christ and Him crucified for sinners.

Romans 1

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,

To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God’s will I may now at last succeed in coming to you. For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith, both yours and mine. I want you to know, brothers, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles. I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
 
Belloc_Fan said:
Sure. There are those who’d never heard of Christ who were still saved. In the parable of Lazarus and Dives, Lazarus is portrayed in the bosom of Abraham. There seems to be pretty strong evidence that the Old Testament faithful Jews were saved and are now in Heaven (this may have been why there was a resurrection of dead saints in Jerusalem at Jesus’ death).
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I believe the Old Testament Saints are saved by the blood of Christ. How do you believe Old Testamenst Saints were saved from their sins. Please consider the Book of Hebrews before you answer. The parable of Lazarus is a parable. Accordining the the Book of Galatians, the gospel was preached to Abraham in advance. In addition, Job proclaimed that His redeemer lived. Even Jesus told the Jews that the Old Testament Scriptures pointed to Him for live.
 
I think that Romans Chapter 2 has some important information
12 For whosoever have sinned without the law shall perish without the law: and whosoever have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these, having not the law, are a law to themselves. 15 Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them: and their thoughts between themselves accusing or also defending one another, 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
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In the story of the last judgement in Matthew, Jesus says “I was hungry…I was thirsty…I was naked…and you did not…” The “righteous” asked “Lord when did we see you…” in as much as you have done it to the least of these…you have done it to me"…then the Judge says to the same thing to a group of others who did feed the the hungry, the naked…" and they wonder why he is telling them they did when they were ignorant of the Judge…implying…at least IMO, that they had no knowledge of the Judge…but they “knew” him in others as they sought to serve. “In as much as you did it for others…you did it for me.”
 
2nd_Adam said:
I believe the Old Testament Saints are saved by the blood of Christ.
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Absolutely. There’s no other way to be saved. The only way to be saved is through the Blood of Jesus. If any of the people I mentioned on the bulleted list are saved, they’re saved through Christ. It’s possible for Christ to save them without them calling on Him literally by name as a literal understanding of Romans 10 might suggest. Even though there were some who had foretastes of the Gospel even under the Old Covenant, those were only a select few, even of the saints.

All the saved are saved by the name of Christ whether they know that name or not. So the question isn’t, “is there another way to be saved than through Christ?” The question is “is there more than one type of salvific relationship with Christ?” And we already know the answer to that latter question is yes, since relationship with Christ is inherently individualistic.
 
I think if you want to understand what I believe, you need to understand the doctrine of election, predestination, chosen, etc that is revealed in the Bible. You will find that the great Protestant missionaries were Calvinists, driven to bring the saving gospel to those who never heard of Christ. You will find in Scripture that God raises up individuals to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to His chosen ones.

You are all welcome to play the virtual reality missionary game with me.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=391332&page=3
 
2nd_Adam said:
I think if you want to understand what I believe, you need to understand the doctrine of election, predestination, chosen, etc that is revealed in the Bible. You will find that the great Protestant missionaries were Calvinists, driven to bring the saving gospel to those who never heard of Christ. You will find in Scripture that God raises up individuals to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to His chosen ones.

You are all welcome to play the virtual reality missionary game with me.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=391332&page=3
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I understand the doctrine of election, predestination, chosen, etc. that is revealed in the Bible. I’m Catholic. 😉 My Church has been teaching those doctrines since before the Bible was compiled.

What I don’t understand is the 16th/17th century Calvinist interpretation of the Bible.

Why don’t you explain that to me? 🙂

❤️ Love is Patient
 
2nd_Adam said:
I think if you want to understand what I believe, you need to understand the doctrine of election, predestination, chosen, etc that is revealed in the Bible.
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Both Catholics and Calvinists believe in these concepts. From my understanding, the Catholic concept is a stronger motivater to evangelize, since in Calvinism, the elect will be saved no matter what. Works are a result of their justification, which is a result of their faith, which is a result of their election, and that election is the real saving part. So the notion of a “saving faith” isn’t really accurate, any more than “saving works” would be - both are fruits from the same seed of “always-saved” election. Evangelizing or not evangelizing makes 0 difference in terms of who is ultimately saved, from what I can tell of the Calvinist view.

That said, most Calvinists clearly don’t seem to see it that way, and a great number have been powerful and wonderful missionaries for Christ. (Obviously, there are exceptions - those like Fred Phelps, whose Westboro Baptist Church just preaches damnation so that we, having heard the word, will be held accountable – that’s just cruel and vile).
2nd_Adam said:
You will find that the great Protestant missionaries were Calvinists, driven to bring the saving gospel to those who never heard of Christ. You will find in Scripture that God raises up individuals to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to His chosen ones.
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There have been a great number of missionaries in both of our traditions. While the Reformation was raging in Europe, the Jesuits were doing things like converting huge swaths of the Far East - people like St. Francis Xavier, who preached by speaking in tongues he’d never learned, or the Catholics who were crucified in Nagasaki for the Faith.

You *seem *to think that since Catholics (a) acknowledge the possibility that God, in His wisdom and mercy, will save some who don’t know the name of Jesus, that we (b) therefore think that all the ignorant are saved, and therefore evangelism is evil or at least pointless; and/or (c) that these people are saved other than by Christ.

B and C are flatly rejected by the Catholic Church, even if some ignorantly embrace those positions . We don’t know how many people will be saved without having heard the name of Christ, but we can be sure that all of those who put their faith in Him and walk in His path will be.
 
Love_is_Patient said:
I understand the doctrine of election, predestination, chosen, etc. that is revealed in the Bible. I’m Catholic. 😉 My Church has been teaching those doctrines since before the Bible was compiled.

What I don’t understand is the 16th/17th century Calvinist interpretation of the Bible.

Why don’t you explain that to me? 🙂

❤️ Love is Patient
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Do you want to hear the long or short version? The short version is John 3;16 together with 2 Cor 5:21… to the praise of His glorious grace. Calvinism is about glorifying God and enjoying Him forever! The long version is monergism.com. 🙂

monergism.com/

Long version above.
 
Belloc_Fan said:
Both Catholics and Calvinists believe in these concepts. From my understanding, the Catholic concept is a stronger motivater to evangelize, since in Calvinism, the elect will be saved no matter what. Works are a result of their justification, which is a result of their faith, which is a result of their election, and that election is the real saving part. So the notion of a “saving faith” isn’t really accurate, any more than “saving works” would be - both are fruits from the same seed of “always-saved” election. Evangelizing or not evangelizing makes 0 difference in terms of who is ultimately saved, from what I can tell of the Calvinist view.

That said, most Calvinists clearly don’t seem to see it that way, and a great number have been powerful and wonderful missionaries for Christ. (Obviously, there are exceptions - those like Fred Phelps, whose Westboro Baptist Church just preaches damnation so that we, having heard the word, will be held accountable – that’s just cruel and vile).

There have been a great number of missionaries in both of our traditions. While the Reformation was raging in Europe, the Jesuits were doing things like converting huge swaths of the Far East - people like St. Francis Xavier, who preached by speaking in tongues he’d never learned, or the Catholics who were crucified in Nagasaki for the Faith.

You *seem *to think that since Catholics (a) acknowledge the possibility that God, in His wisdom and mercy, will save some who don’t know the name of Jesus, that we (b) therefore think that all the ignorant are saved, and therefore evangelism is evil or at least pointless; and/or (c) that these people are saved other than by Christ.

B and C are flatly rejected by the Catholic Church, even if some ignorantly embrace those positions . We don’t know how many people will be saved without having heard the name of Christ, but we can be sure that all of those who put their faith in Him and walk in His path will be.

Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church is not within the Reformed Calvinist’s circles. You will find the great Protestant missionaries and Evangelists found in the last 500 years were primarily Calvinists. That’s a true statement where anybody can verify through the history books. How about saving the natives on Catholic Answers? It’s fun to play the missionary game.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=391332&page=3
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