Does God Still Kill Some People?

[comrade1789]

I believe yes, based on Acts 5, the story of Saphira and Ananias. The reason i ask is that a presenter in my Catechist Certification Program answered a student’s question about how could God kill people like He did in the OT? The teacher answered that God doesn’t do that, that the people of Israel were immature in their faith and they understood the outcomes of wars and illness, etc as God’s will, that Jesus shows that God is love and that God doesn’t kill people.

I answered that God sometimes does kill people, and when He does it isn’t wrong for him to do so because we ar3e his creation, just like it isn’t wrong for an artist to destroy his own painting, but it would be wrong for someone else to destroy his painting( an argument I once heard on Catholic Radio). I reference Acts 5 as a NT example. The teacher said that the Church would disagree with me, that as Catholics we don’t believe God kills people, and that the CCC makes it clear that we don’t believe in the death penalty.

I told her that we aren’t talking about people killing people, we are talking about God killing people, and actually, the CCC doesn’t exactly say what she is saying it does, although in our society in our circumstances it would be difficult to present a Catholic case where capital punishment would be acceptable…however, again, capital punishment isn’t the question, the question is whether or not God can and does kill some people.

Some things are kinda hinky in her class, she required us to purchase and use new second edition of The Catholic Study Bible NAB Revised Second Edition, which seems to have a liberal slant to it, I don’t like how it leans so heavily on the historical critical method.

Any thoughts or comments would be welcome.

Thanks.

 

[BigFellaMick]

My RCIA class used the NAB and while my RCIA team has been very on subject for everything, which is a blessing, it did bug me that they used it. I feel it is too liberal as well. I don’t like things being changed around lol I’m set in my ways. So I just bring my good old Ignatius and all is well. But my team is great, they offer their own views and experiences on things but when it comes to teaching the matter at hand the Deacon always guides it directly from the Church or Christ Himself. So this always helps add perspective as I’m able to see what the Church says and then how they view things (and to be fair their perceptions have always been synonymous with Rome) so I’m happy with where I am.

 

[centurionguard]

I believe yes, based on Acts 5, the story of Saphira and Ananias. The reason i ask is that a presenter in my Catechist Certification Program answered a student’s question about how could God kill people like He did in the OT? The teacher answered that God doesn’t do that, that the people of Israel were immature in their faith and they understood the outcomes of wars and illness, etc as God’s will, that Jesus shows that God is love and that God doesn’t kill people.

I answered that God sometimes does kill people, and when He does it isn’t wrong for him to do so because we ar3e his creation, just like it isn’t wrong for an artist to destroy his own painting, but it would be wrong for someone else to destroy his painting( an argument I once heard on Catholic Radio). I reference Acts 5 as a NT example. The teacher said that the Church would disagree with me, that as Catholics we don’t believe God kills people, and that the CCC makes it clear that we don’t believe in the death penalty.

I told her that we aren’t talking about people killing people, we are talking about God killing people, and actually, the CCC doesn’t exactly say what she is saying it does, although in our society in our circumstances it would be difficult to present a Catholic case where capital punishment would be acceptable…however, again, capital punishment isn’t the question, the question is whether or not God can and does kill some people.

Some things are kinda hinky in her class, she required us to purchase and use new second edition of The Catholic Study Bible NAB Revised Second Edition, which seems to have a liberal slant to it, I don’t like how it leans so heavily on the historical critical method.

Any thoughts or comments would be welcome.

Thanks.

Interesting; there are areas in the Old Testament during the time of Moses where God’s unquestionable Justice or Wrath whereby one might have deduced that God had smitten people from this earth, but it would seem to me rather that it was the deliberate actions of the people themselves that caused their own death as in during the time of Moses with the Ten Plagues and the Killing of the First born. The killing of Pharaohs army as the Red Sea closed in upon them.

There is also a place in scripture that speaks of the Ark of the Covenant which was carried and often placed in sacred tents during their travels on their way to the Promised Land where only Moses and his priests only had permission to enter. I can’t quote exact chapter and verse right now, but I though one person was said to have entered the sacred tent where the Ark of the Covenant was kept and defiled himself just being before the sight of the Holy Ark itself and was said to have vanished from sight. Not sure if this is written in Numbers or Leviticus. I could also be wrong about this.

 

[Lonely_guy]

Hi and God bless.
I believe that God can kill people but I don’t think that He do it. Once He did,yes,but the world was a different place then as where the rules. What I think is that we do it our self. Not the body of ours but the soul. Committing a sin is one way to kill our soul. But God gave us the greatest gift anyone can,His Son,Jesus Christ who did for our sins. There is no need to kill anyone anymore. Jesus did die so that we can live. All we need to do is what is right in the eyes of The Lord and we are safe. What ever you tell others,let it come from your heart. If your faith is strong,it is the right answer you will provide,and if you don’t know what to say,check your CCC or ask your priest first. A swift answer may be in order some time but thees are matters where we need to know what the RCC teaches and to be sure,ask those who know for sure. And I think,this is my first time I answer a question here,that on this forum are many that also may give you a better answer then mine. One thing I know though. Before you answer a “big” question,pray. In the silence of your prayer God will tell you what you shall say.

 

[TimothyH]

God demands everyone’s life in the end.

Sooner or later, whether you like it or not, ready or not…

-Tim-

 

[johnbres2]

I think the original post is one of those un-answerable questions, where people are just kidding themselves if they think they know the answer. My answer is this: I am a father, and I would never do anything to hurt one of my children, unless it was to prevent a potentially greater harm. Most of the examples in the Bible where God is supposedly killing people are because the people were considered blasphemers; in other words, God is punishing them. Frankly, I think attributing these killings to God was a way Moses, Joshua, etc. were justifying the slaughters and genocides that they were advocating and conducting. Jesus came that we might have life and have it abundantly. He did not come here to kill people.

 

[TimothyH]

I think the original post is one of those un-answerable questions, where people are just kidding themselves if they think they know the answer. My answer is this: I am a father, and I would never do anything to hurt one of my children, unless it was to prevent a potentially greater harm. Most of the examples in the Bible where God is supposedly killing people are because the people were considered blasphemers; in other words, God is punishing them. Frankly, I think attributing these killings to God was a way Moses, Joshua, etc. were justifying the slaughters and genocides that they were advocating and conducting. Jesus came that we might have life and have it abundantly. He did not come here to kill people.

If the killing in the old Testament was ordered by Joshua and falsly atributed to God, then parts of the Bible are a lie.

The people who were ordered killed by God were not just blasphemers. They were homosexual gang rapists. They sacrificed their children to the god Molech by heaping burning coals into a statue of the God and laying their own children in the arms of the statue to be seared alive while everyone cheered. They had sex with their mothers. They drank human blood and ate human flesh as part of their worship, and boy prostitution was part of the organization of their pagan temples. All of this is documented in the Bible and confirmed by acheologists and many extra-biblical sources. These weren’t people who said bad things about God. They were the worst human beings who ever lived on the planet. They made the Joseph Goebbels look like a ballerina.

The killing in the old Testament was ordered by God, and that God is the same God who became man to die on a cross to redeem all of us, who murder 1.5 million unborn infants every year, cut them apart with wires and suck them out of their mother’s wombs into jars. If anything brings back the wrath of the Old Testament, it will be our contracepting and aborting of children.

-Tim-

 

[cap76]

Death was God’s promise to Adam for his disobedience; and that same promise belongs to us:
Romans 5.12, ‘Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.’

 God is not only the law-giver and judge of mankind, but He is also the executioner:

1 Samuel 2:6, ‘The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.’

 Notice Job's own confession after his children were destroyed:

1.20-21, ‘Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.’

 Notice Jesus' strong implication that men die as a result of God's judgement:

Luke 13.2-5, ‘And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.’

 Finally, Jesus' own death came by the hand of our executioner as God the Father tortured and murdered His Son in the place of guilty sinners. The New Testament church realized this as evidenced by this prayer to God:

Acts 4.27, ‘For of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done.’ (emphasis mine)

 

[Julia_Mae]

I answered that God sometimes does kill people, and when He does it isn’t wrong for him to do so because we ar3e his creation, just like it isn’t wrong for an artist to destroy his own painting, but it would be wrong for someone else to destroy his painting( an argument I once heard on Catholic Radio). I reference Acts 5 as a NT example. The teacher said that the Church would disagree with me, that as Catholics we don’t believe God kills people, and that the CCC makes it clear that we don’t believe in the death penalty…

Well, in point of fact, God kills everybody. But He doesn’t destroy anybody. There is a point when it’s time to leave here and go on to the next part of our lives, God knows that moment and makes that happen just as He knew when to create us here.

I read something from Saint Teresa of Avila where she said she asked God why, in a battle between Spanish Christians and infidels of some sort, God did not give the battle to the Catholics and allowed them to be slaughtered when a victory would have done great things for the Church.

God told her, she reports, that every one of those soldiers was ready and willing to die for Christ at that moment of battle. By taking them then, He assured they went to Heaven and their souls were safe. God’s great interest is not in any thing that humans can imagine, but in the welfare of every individual human soul.

There is not one thing wrong with going Home and God’s Will and Timing are always perfect. God kills. I am so grateful.

 

[johnbres2]

If the killing in the old Testament was ordered by Joshua and falsly atributed to God, then parts of the Bible are a lie.

The people who were ordered killed by God were not just blasphemers. They were homosexual gang rapists. They sacrificed their children to the god Molech by heaping burning coals into a statue of the God and laying their own children in the arms of the statue to be seared alive while everyone cheered. They had sex with their mothers. They drank human blood and ate human flesh as part of their worship, and boy prostitution was part of the organization of their pagan temples. All of this is documented in the Bible and confirmed by acheologists and many extra-biblical sources. These weren’t people who said bad things about God. They were the worst human beings who ever lived on the planet. They made the Joseph Goebbels look like a ballerina.

The killing in the old Testament was ordered by God, and that God is the same God who became man to die on a cross to redeem all of us, who murder 1.5 million unborn infants every year, cut them apart with wires and suck them out of their mother’s wombs into jars. If anything brings back the wrath of the Old Testament, it will be our contracepting and aborting of children.

-Tim-

This is ridiculous and an attempt to justify genocide. Joshua and his slaughtering hosts killed every living person in those towns. While some were no doubt grievous sinners (your Joseph Goebbels bit of hyperbole was over the top) who have to pay the price of sin (e.g. the wages of sin is death), God would not tell people to murder children because many of the parents in the community were blasphemers and sinners. While many people have been able to perceive the will of God, anyone who says that God ordered them to kill someone is on an extremely slippery slope, especially when God clearly ordered (in writing!) to teach the people, “Thou shalt not kill.”

Your reasoning could be used by religious extremists to kill Americans as well, for the abortions, the licentiousness, the greed, etc. of this society. Many American are blasphemers, etc. Would this justify, in your eyes, that every American be killed? You might say, well, the scriptures say God ordered those deaths. I won’t go there. The New Testament was the fullness of God’s message to man. Clearly, what Jesus Christ said to us directly is a more telling testimony of God than what Joshua might think he heard. Jesus said “forgive them for they know not what they do,” and taught a Gospel of love.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This is ridiculous and an attempt to justify genocide. Joshua and his slaughtering hosts killed every living person in those towns.

Are you referring to Jericho, where all living creatures but the prostitute and her household, including the sheep and goats were slaughtered after the walls fell down? I was taught that archeology shows that Jericho was a long abandoned ruin when the Israelites came upon it that gave rise to the legend because they found the walls still clearly marking the boundaries but collapsed.

 

[johnbres2]

Are you referring to Jericho, where all living creatures but the prostitute and her household, including the sheep and goats were slaughtered after the walls fell down? I was taught that archeology shows that Jericho was a long abandoned ruin when the Israelites came upon it that gave rise to the legend because they found the walls still clearly marking the boundaries but collapsed.

Jericho, and a whole litany of other towns, as described in the Book of Joshua. I am not saying there is no deeper meaning for us in these OT books with these genocidal-slaughters. To me, the idea is that we have to completely eradicate sin in our lives, and that you cannot “spare” a little bit of it in yourself.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Jericho, and a whole litany of other towns, as described in the Book of Joshua. I am not saying there is no deeper meaning for us in these OT books with these genocidal-slaughters. To me, the idea is that we have to completely eradicate sin in our lives, and that you cannot “spare” a little bit of it in yourself.

I agree about the sin. I always wonder what the writer of the tale had in mind, however, and what the rabbis had to say in preChristian times.

 

[comrade1789]

I do appreciate all of the responses. I was also wondering if the fact the the Church celebrates the Battle of Lepanto, also now known as the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary, is, in a way, also a validation that as a Church we believe that God can and does continue to kill, because he gave us a military/naval victory over the muslims…and that victory came with real human deaths.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I do appreciate all of the responses. I was also wondering if the fact the the Church celebrates the Battle of Lepanto, also now known as the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary, is, in a way, also a validation that as a Church we believe that God can and does continue to kill, because he gave us a military/naval victory over the muslims…and that victory came with real human deaths.

I wouldn’t read too much into this if I were you. God allows freewill. Whether or not God directly intervened in one battle or another is unknown. What it means if He does, also beyond our ability to understand.

 

[theblindlead]

what you are talking about is hugely controversial in the church and is normally brought down to the question of Abraham and Issac. would it be Morally Right (MR) to kill Issac since god commanded it. Thomas Aquinas, who i only have the shadow of the intellect of, stated that the killing of Issac would be MR because it is impossible for God to do anything that is wrong thus the actions which he had commanded even though it would normally be wrong would have been made right by the command of God. So does God condone the killing of Muslims in the battle of Lepanto if so then i would say that the act is morally right. you also have to remember that god didn’t kill anyone at that battle humans did. (hope this helped and i didn’t talk out of my butt too much)

 

[Julia_Mae]

So does God condone the killing of Muslims in the battle of Lepanto if so then i would say that the act is morally right. you also have to remember that god didn’t kill anyone at that battle humans did. (hope this helped and i didn’t talk out of my butt too much)

I agree. But the operative phrase is “if so.” We don’t know God’s mind here.