Does God want certain sufferings?

[distracted]

I don’t think God wants certain sufferings. but I do agree that for some people he can sure use them to get their attention. Most of our suffering is brought on either by us, or eachother. But I do see suffering as a way to get better understanding. Thats how I think God can make good out of it.

But I do know we are put in this world to suffer. We all will. One way or another. This is not heaven and it is not easy. Suffering is brought on by sin, and we sin not God. If there was no sin there would be no suffering. God took away sin by his suffering. But by our sin we cause suffering on ourself or others. But God loves us and promises us that he will be with us every step of the way if we ask.

God wants suffering as much as he wants sin. None. But he has given us free will. And by free will we do sin, and for that sin we must confess and repent, and that does pertain to some suffering.

Now the Devil oh yes he wants suffering, the more the better. He loves sin, because when people sin they cause suffering for themself and others. Now its him who wants suffering. All God can do is help us with it. And take away our suffering.

well said…

yeah, i kinda can’t understand the devil… What’s his blasted problem? I mean why does he want to cause so much trouble?? He was supposed to be so smart and yet he rebelled against God and got kicked out of heaven… How smart is that???

i guess he is jealous of us humans who have a chance to be saved…

i just don’t understand why some being who was in Heaven would want to be anywhere else/? why would he deliberately get kicked out of Heaven…?

 

[distracted]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

The commentary at New Advent reads; “Create evil, etc… The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin.” newadvent.org/bible/isa045.htm

God creates evil?

I don’t remember reading this in the bible… or hearing it being read @ Mass…

what version of the bible are you quoting from?

 

[redhen]

According to the New Advent website, newadvent.org/bible/index.html

The Holy Bible
Old Testament First Published 1609 by the English College at Douay
New Testament First Published 1582 by the English College at Rheims
Revised and Annotated 1749 by Bishop Richard Challoner
Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight
Imprimatur. +James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, September 1, 1899

I originally saw this Isaiah quote in the Summa Theologica, ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP049.html#FPQ49OUTP1

Objection 1: It would seem that the supreme good, God, is the cause of evil. For it is said (Is. 45:5,7): “I am the Lord, and there is no other God, forming the light, and creating darkness, making peace, and creating evil.” And Amos 3:6, “Shall there be evil in a city, which the Lord hath not done?”

ST, 1st part, question 49, article 2.

 

[distracted]

According to the New Advent website, newadvent.org/bible/index.html

The Holy Bible
Old Testament First Published 1609 by the English College at Douay
New Testament First Published 1582 by the English College at Rheims
Revised and Annotated 1749 by Bishop Richard Challoner
Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight
Imprimatur. +James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, September 1, 1899

I originally saw this Isaiah quote in the Summa Theologica, ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP049.html#FPQ49OUTP1

ST, 1st part, question 49, article 2.

I’m going to look it up in my Bible…

i’ve been attending daily mass for quite some time & nver heard of htis…

i know he allows evil but never heard that he created it… i believe he creates beings who choose on hteir own to do evil…

 

[rinnie]

According to the New Advent website, newadvent.org/bible/index.html

The Holy Bible
Old Testament First Published 1609 by the English College at Douay
New Testament First Published 1582 by the English College at Rheims
Revised and Annotated 1749 by Bishop Richard Challoner
Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight
Imprimatur. +James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, September 1, 1899

I originally saw this Isaiah quote in the Summa Theologica, ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP049.html#FPQ49OUTP1

ST, 1st part, question 49, article 2.

If I may. This does not say that God causes evil. It says that God permits evil for the sake of a greater good! To permit means to let something happen, but to permit does not mean to cause something to happen.

 

[redhen]

Looks like there is some debate on the meaning of the hebrew word רע (ra) used in Isaiah, it can denote either moral evil or harm, woe, disaster, etc.

 

[Heliotropium]

I believe suffering is good for the soul… hate it but still believe this…

Does the Church teach this, exactly?

I know the Church teaches we can offer our sufferings for

1. expiation of (the effects of or stain of) past sins
2. the souls in Purgatory
3. conversions

But how do we know what sufferings to accept & which to reject (run from)??

to me just getting out of bed in the morning is a terrible suffering…uch: but i have a plethora of other sufferings as well (celibate for 100 yrs, etc )… and sometimes don’t know which ones are… self-inflicted & totally un-necessary… and which ones i should (nonetheless? ) accept??

God does want and permits sufferings for punishment, correction, and testing. The question for why does God allow suffering, or will it is sometimes a mystery but what isn’t is that God will always pull a greater good from it, and that God only allows that which is beneficial His creation. For example God permitted Joseph to be sold into to slavery by his brothers but how much better did this benefit Joseph and his brothers? There are many account such as this in the Bible but the most import is Gods own Son was tortured, and killed but how great a benefit did this for all mankind since that Son was Christ and that he died so that are sins may be forgiven! Suffering in any case is used to fortify virtues.

One book that I will recommend is called. The Heliotropium “Conformity to the Divine Will” written by a priest in the 17th century and published by TAN. It addresses God’s Will, Why He Wills this or That, How to tell between your Will and Gods, and how to conform your Will to God’s Will. Please get a copy and read it.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I believe suffering is good for the soul… hate it but still believe this…

Does the Church teach this, exactly?

I know the Church teaches we can offer our sufferings for

1. expiation of (the effects of or stain of) past sins
2. the souls in Purgatory
3. conversions

But how do we know what sufferings to accept & which to reject (run from)??

to me just getting out of bed in the morning is a terrible suffering…uch: but i have a plethora of other sufferings as well (celibate for 100 yrs, etc )… and sometimes don’t know which ones are… self-inflicted & totally un-necessary… and which ones i should (nonetheless? ) accept??

Man along with the evil one cause suffering.

 

[distracted]

One book that I will recommend is called. The Heliotropium “Conformity to the Divine Will” written by a priest in the 17th century and published by TAN. It addresses God’s Will, Why He Wills this or That, How to tell between your Will and Gods, and how to conform your Will to God’s Will. Please get a copy and read it.

thanks… no one can accuse TAN of not being orthodox!!

 

[distracted]

Man along with the evil one cause suffering.

so true…

man sins, then suffers because of it…

and blames God… :whacky:

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

so true…

man sins, then suffers because of it…

and blames God… :whacky:

That’s cuz everyone blames God …but no one blames the Devil. Just remember this Psalm:

**The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want.
In verdant pastures He gives me repose;
Beside restful waters He leads me;
He refreshes my soul.
He guides me in right paths for His name’s sake.

EVEN THOUGH I WALK IN THE DARK VALLEY, I FEAR NO EVIL;
for you are at my side with your rod and your staff that give me courage. **

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I also found in 1 Peter 5:8:

“Stay sober and alert. Your opponent the devil is prowling like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Resist him, solid in your faith, realizing that the brotherhood of believers is undergoing the same sufferings throughout the world. The God of all Grace, who called you to His everlasting glory in Christ, will restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish those who have suffered a little while. Dominion be His throughout the ages. Amen.”

1 Peter 3:17:

"If it should be God’s Will that you suffer, it is better to do so for good deeds than for evil ones".

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

One more…

1Peter 1:6:

"You may for a time have to suffer the distress of many trials; but this is so** that your faith, which is more precious than the passing splendor of fire-tried gold, may be by its genuineness lead to praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ appears".******

 

[distracted]

One more…

1Peter 1:6:

"You may for a time have to suffer the distress of many trials; but this is so** that your faith, which is more precious than the passing splendor of fire-tried gold, may be by its genuineness lead to praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ appears".******

it seems a devout Christian goes through a hundred martyrdoms a day (or thereabouts )… becaue it is so hard to always do the right thing… or even sometimes…

the older one gets, the more tired one gets (or do i only speak for myself??? No, i don’t think so… i know a lot of "old " people… )

anyway… it is so easy to fall preyto the devil… he is smarter than we are … been around longer… etc…

but … anyway… forgot what more i was going to say… :whacky:

God bless…

 

[rinnie]

To say that God wants certain suffering is like saying God wants certain sin. Impossible. God allows suffering, the same as sin because we have free will. But it is when we do suffer because of our sin or the sin of others that God shows his love and compassion for us. Read the poem footprints. It is when we can no longer suffer that God takes our cross and carry’s it for us. He loves us that much!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

certain sufferings are necessary for salvation…

it is suffering to change…

because we humans are not angels… and we don’t necessarily want to be angels… and yet we must be changed in order to enter Heaven… where no impure thing will ever enter…

so suffering IS required of God and he is not a sadist…

So much for God as father .​

Agreed, that “we humans are not angels” - but it does not follow that God desires us to suffer. Which is what has to be established. That there is suffering, does not make it God’s will. Does God really desire the gassing of millions of Jews ? Sorry, but a god like that is indistinguishable from the devil. And that is one of the problems - if God’s moral character is indistinguishable from that of the devil, to worship God is but devil-worship under another name

just about sums it up.

One way out - or one way to lighten the difficulty - is to distinguish between the antecedent & consequent will of God; though this has difficulties of its own; it can be enunciated so as to save God’s moral character at the price of giving us a disinterested spectator God, an impersonal God.

There is nothing improving in suffering as such - otherwise, Hell would be our true home, & every tyrant & man of blood would be a benefactor of the human race; those most of all who have caused most suffering. The dregs of mankind would be those who have relieved the suffering of others.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Here is what I do know Jesus Christ made it very clear - those who believe in me and follow me will also be persecuted, we will also suffer, each of will pick up our own cross…

I do not know of any one Church who has been attacked more that our Catholic Church - likewise the Catholic Church has always fought destructive heretical teachings which has come from within her.

Most often, by inflicting suffering on others: deprivation of office, disgrace, exile, imprisonment, pariah status, torment, death, denial of burial, & singling out of the relatives of those so treated. The CC has inflicted far more woe on others than any other Church - & much of what Catholics have suffered has been no more than the application to them of the measures they have dealt out to others. So it is not easy to have much sympathy for them. If others give Catholics a little dose of what Catholics have so generously dealt out to others when able to, that is no more than fair; it is far less than would be fair, so the CC is getting off lightly.​

Just for the record: Jesus said nothing about Catholicism, so it is self-serving to apply those words to the CC. Especially as the CC is criticised not for Christlikeness, but for its countless crimes. Defending or minimising or denying them does not suggest that Catholicism is the good thing it wants people to think it is.

 

[josie_L]

Most often, by inflicting suffering on others: deprivation of office, disgrace, exile, imprisonment, pariah status, torment, death, denial of burial, & singling out of the relatives of those so treated. The CC has inflicted far more woe on others than any other Church - & much of what Catholics have suffered has been no more than the application to them of the measures they have dealt out to others. So it is not easy to have much sympathy for them. If others give Catholics a little dose of what Catholics have so generously dealt out to others when able to, that is no more than fair; it is far less than would be fair, so the CC is getting off lightly.​

Just for the record: Jesus said nothing about Catholicism, so it is self-serving to apply those words to the CC. Especially as the CC is criticised not for Christlikeness, but for its countless crimes. Defending or minimising or denying them does not suggest that Catholicism is the good thing it wants people to think it is.

Personally, you shouldn’t be speaking for Jesus as you pretty much called him a “failure” in another thread.

P.S. Yes, the Church is sooooo bad. Her crimes truly outnumber her virtues and past/ present accomplishments. But let’s focus on the bad why don’t we (especially when those deeds are taken out of context by present day secular forces). And furthermore, you state things so vague (without the requisite context one would need to understand the misdeeds) that I have to wonder how much of it is your interpretation of events? News flash: the Church had every right to defend her faithful from heretical views (that there were exaggerations committed in the name of Jesus is obvious). But they were not as prevalant as you make it out to be.

 

[josie_L]

So much for God as father .​

Agreed, that “we humans are not angels” - but it does not follow that God desires us to suffer. Which is what has to be established. That there is suffering, does not make it God’s will. Does God really desire the gassing of millions of Jews ? Sorry, but a god like that is indistinguishable from the devil. And that is one of the problems - if God’s moral character is indistinguishable from that of the devil, to worship God is but devil-worship under another name

just about sums it up.

One way out - or one way to lighten the difficulty - is to distinguish between the antecedent & consequent will of God; though this has difficulties of its own; it can be enunciated so as to save God’s moral character at the price of giving us a disinterested spectator God, an impersonal God.

There is nothing improving in suffering as such - otherwise, Hell would be our true home, & every tyrant & man of blood would be a benefactor of the human race; those most of all who have caused most suffering. The dregs of mankind would be those who have relieved the suffering of others.

I suffered for Christ many times and have found that suffering leads to perseverance which leads to character which leads to hope (I’m pretty sure that’s in the Bible).

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Most often, by inflicting suffering on others: deprivation of office, disgrace, exile, imprisonment, pariah status, torment, death, denial of burial, & singling out of the relatives of those so treated. The CC has inflicted far more woe on others than any other Church - & much of what Catholics have suffered has been no more than the application to them of the measures they have dealt out to others. So it is not easy to have much sympathy for them. If others give Catholics a little dose of what Catholics have so generously dealt out to others when able to, that is no more than fair; it is far less than would be fair, so the CC is getting off lightly.​

Just for the record: Jesus said nothing about Catholicism, so it is self-serving to apply those words to the CC. Especially as the CC is criticised not for Christlikeness, but for its countless crimes. Defending or minimising or denying them does not suggest that Catholicism is the good thing it wants people to think it is.

There you go again…The Scriptures are so thoroughly Catholic it isn’t funny. Just as the early church was Catholic.
I wish you and others would stop criticizing the Catholic church for what you call “crimes” it had committed. As if the CC were the only members ever to have flaws in it. The Catholic church did nothing but protect it’s doctrines and it’s faith from day one. Anyone who tried to destroy or change the Word of God were either destroyed or excommunicated. I agree with this. And since the church is on the side of Jesus Christ, I’d of done the same thing.
And although God had said “Thou shalt not kill”, there are thousands of Palestinians being killed today by the Jews for whatever reasons they have every day. So much for their Ten Commandments. And not to mention the Protestants who killed and are still killing hundreds of Catholics.
If you’d like to start a thread about other so called “churches” who have killed Catholics, then let’s bring it on.