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Fairwinds
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this is why protestants hate us and why atheists hate christians.
when God wants you to speak for Him, He’ll let you know.
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when God wants you to speak for Him, He’ll let you know.
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aemcpa
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These aren’t my words. God commanded the Apostles and their successors to speak for Him; these are their words. Hence “divinely revealed truth”.
Catholicism isn’t a Christian denomination. It’s the Church founded by Jesus Christ, outside of which there is no salvation. At the end of the day, Protestants will have to either hate us or join us. If they can bear the existence of Catholicism without being compelled to enter the Church, we’re doing it wrong.
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JamesCaruso
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Naturally, we would disagree. The first thought that comes to mind reading your post is, “I wonder what his source of dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church was/is?” If there was something specific, it can be addressed, but not in this thread.
If it was something vague and nebulous, I would challenge your discernment as valid. I don’t think God leads based on vague, undefined feelings.
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guanophore
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Actually, every human person IS subject to the Roman Pontiff, just as every human person is subject to Christ, in whose shoes the successor of the Fisherman now stands. It is his duty to feed and care for the flock, whether they accept it or not.
There are many people who do not realize they are subject, and others who deny it. Some are in outright defiance. Rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff, but subjects still.
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guanophore
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He has. Every baptized person is called to evangelize, and to speak about what He has done for us to those who need to hear. He is the source of all Truth, and it is His Truth that we are to bring into the world.
Eph 4:15
15 But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
We must be very cautious here to avoid judging or criticizing the faith walk of another. If anyone wants to learn more about the faith journey of this particular member, one need only go back and read his posts for the past several years, where the whole thing was pretty well posted in public. It will become very clear that it was not something “vague and nebulous”.Naturally, we would disagree. The first thought that comes to mind reading your post is, “I wonder what his source of dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church was/is?” If there was something specific, it can be addressed, but not in this thread.
This is not the place to challenge if a persons’ discernment was “valid”, but I do agree that God does not lead on “vague undefined feelings”. We can disagree without discounting.
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pocohombre
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Where did you find her? Actually, my interrpretation is she looks like her immediate reaction is no, no, but then she slowly rolls her eyes up, stops nodding no and hmm,… thinks about it. Perfect!
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PRmerger
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JamesCaruso
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So rather than discern for yourself, you let your wife discern for you?
I would have thought that doctrinal differences between Orthodox and Catholic would have everything to do with whether a person left one church for the other. Frankly, you seem to treat these different faiths as if they were equal in all respects, and that you were only looking to see which one suited you the best, but at the same time you wanted God to ratify your choice (which he didn’t, as you explained it, your wife did, and that is not the same thing. Sounds almost like you were looking for permission to do something wrong. But that’s just me talking… ).
Your approach to spirituality seems self-centric as if truth were relative to the particular person. The doctrinal differences apparently do not matter as much to you as the feeling or personal sense of fit the particular church gives you. In the end you satisfied your unwilling conscience, or so you thought, by allowing your wife to make the decision for you.
Is it your opinion that doctrinal differences are “higher level differences” that do not have any meaning at the lower levels of practicing your faith? Apparently you did “not” discern that either of the churches, Catholic or Orthodox, was the “one, true church” founded by Christ. If you had, discernment would have been no problem.
Christ is not for disunity, and yet these two faiths are split apart from each other. But since you did not discern one or the other to be the “one” church, then you were already departed from the Catholic Church at the outset of your discernment without your realizing it. Does it matter? Noticing that the two churches have grown apart more and more by doctrines they do not have in common is proof to me that it does in fact really matter. The Holy Spirit cannot be guiding the two churches into error. One or the other (or both) is not in sync with the Spirit of God. This should be of paramount importance to anyone wishing to deepen his faith and spiritual walk.
I’d say your search is not yet over. Eventually, if you are open, the attraction of truth will cause you to question where the fullness of truth resides. The attraction of truth, for those spiritually open to it, is the greatest attraction on earth, and will overcome all personal preferences and biases. Does the Orthodox Church claim to have the fullness of truth as does the Catholic Church? Be sure you don’t allow the comfort you feel in your new church persuade you that it is the one true church. If you decide on that basis you do not deserve to know and follow the truth. Many there are who settle for less than the fullness of truth that God wants for them. Nor does he want disunity.
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JamesCaruso
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Yes, we, including you, should be very cautious about judging or criticizing the faith walk of another. If you refer to my post, I used the word “if”, that is, I neither said your discernment was based on specific disagreements with the Catholic Church nor on vague, undefined feelings. Since I was not aware of your forum fame, being a relatively new member, I have no idea of how you came to believe that God was leading you away from the Catholic Church to the Orthodox church. You rightly anticipated that many would disagree with you. By definition, all Catholics will disagree with your discernment away from what we believe to be the one, true Church of Christ.
If you check my post, I was the first one to say that this is not the place to challenge a person’s discernment, so if you will kindly give me the link to the posts that best capsulize your argument with Catholicism, I’d be happy to read them and comment by private message. If you are not interested, we can drop it here.
Your original post interests me, because having found the fullness of truth, it is interesting to me that someone else has decided that it contains error. ** If** you are interested in others finding the fullness of truth that you have found, you should be desirous of sharing your truth. ** If**, however, it is only your defense against those who would disagree, then it is not worth my trouble to pursue. Not a criticism, just a statement of fact. Will it lead to argument? Only if you want it to. One man believes one thing, and another man, another thing. Without debate in spirit and truth, the two stand apart. With two who are open to reason, unity is possible.
Returning to the topic of this thread, your answer will be “No,” and my answer will be “Yes.” One of us is in error.
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JamesCaruso
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A good point you make! To this day, a parish is determined by geographical boundaries, and the Pastor of that parish is the pastor of every person in that geographical area, whether Catholic or not. Either the height of arrogance or the truth that Catholicism is the one, true Church of Christ!Actually, every human person IS subject to the Roman Pontiff, just as every human person is subject to Christ, in whose shoes the successor of the Fisherman now stands. It is his duty to feed and care for the flock, whether they accept it or not.
There are many people who do not realize they are subject, and others who deny it. Some are in outright defiance. Rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff, but subjects still.
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ConstantineTG
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There is no disaffection, I found the truth in Orthodoxy. It is as simple as that.Naturally, we would disagree. The first thought that comes to mind reading your post is, “I wonder what his source of dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church was/is?” If there was something specific, it can be addressed, but not in this thread.
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ConstantineTG
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Why not? We are of one flesh, it does not make sense that I become Orthodox and she does not. I know some people do it, but not for me. My previous bishop gave me a wonderful advice about it (he was actually referring to canonically transferring to the UGCC). He said that we should always do it as a family. I sort of dragged her into the UGCC, so it is also only fair that she makes a call on this one. If she said at the time that she wants us return to the Roman Catholic Church instead, I would have sucked it up and gone.
There were doctrinal issues. At the time I wasn’t that deep into learning, I was aware of the usual issues about the Pope. Frankly, to this day, I don’t think anyone of us can make a clear indication what the true teaching is on that one. Everything the Catholics have to say, the Orthodox has a response. Everything the Orthodox has to say, the Catholics has a response. If hundreds of years of theological debates and discussions between seasoned theologians haven’t been able to resolve this, what hope does you and I have at resolving this? At the end of the day, we can only inform ourselves as much, pray, and follow our conscience.
God did ratify my choice, through my wife. What are you expecting, a writing in the sky? Stone tablets? In Orthodoxy the purpose of every Sacrament is to lead us to the Kingdom of God. Marriage is a Sacrament. Therefore God can speak to me through my wife, and to my wife through me. Why does that sound ridiculous to you?
Of course it matters to me. Read up all my recent posts. Do you think converting is easy? Do you think you just read up on something and have that “aha!” moment? The reason I even found myself in an Orthodox parish visiting is because in my mind, in my heart, I was already Orthodox. But giving up the Catholic Church is a huge deal (or any faith, for that matter) especially that I come from a culture that is fully integrated with the Roman Catholic faith, and all my family are Roman Catholics.
I know today that Orthodoxy is the one true faith of the one true Church. Look, I told a story on how the process went. If I were to go into every little detail I would end up writing a novel. My post was long enough as it is, and I’m thankful that you read through it. Obviously you are expecting more, but my intention is not to tell everything about it. That just takes a lot of time for me to write and for people to read. The whole process from growing in faith in Roman Catholicism to Eastern Catholicism to Orthodoxy took at least 4 years. There are plenty of details there.
I hate the fact that you’d rather criticize than ask questions. As I said, the whole process is huge and it was never my intention to outline every little detail. Just because I didn’t mention it, you are now accusing me of all these thing. I did not take my conversion lightly. I did not write my life story here so do not be the judge of me.
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ConstantineTG
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I learned not to speak in finality. Before I became Eastern Catholic, I couldn’t imagine myself not being Roman Catholic. When I was in the UGCC, all I ever wanted to be was to be Ukrainian Catholic. And now I am Orthodox. Is this where I will spend eternity? I hope so, but who knows. For sure I will not be back in the Catholic Church. I have gone too much deep into Soteriology and Sacramental Theology just in the last year and I completely disagree with everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches on those two matters. Okay, maybe not everything, you might start judging me again here. My point is that in all aspects there is something I disagree with. I see the difference between East and West is more than a few minor issues such as the Papacy, Purgatory and the Filioque. The fundamental faith is completely different. And I have completely accepted the Orthodox teaching. If I were to move on, I can imagine the only place left for me to go to is the Oriental Orthodox Church. But at this point in time, I highly doubt it. We’d probably be in communion soon enough anyway. I can’t imagine what issue will drive me from Eastern Orthodoxy to Oriental Orthodoxy. I’m just saying this because I recognize their authenticity as a Church of Apostolic origin, and the fact that I’m not going back to communion with Rome, unless of course Rome accepts Orthodoxy.
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JamesCaruso
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I am glad to hear there was no disaffection, if by that you mean no feeling of dissatisfaction, but if you found the “truth” in Orthodoxy, does that not mean you found less truth in Catholicism, and readers of this thread might want to know what truth you found to be greater in Orthodoxy than what you had known in Catholicism? Thank you. James
PS-- I just saw that you have responded to other posts of mine, so maybe this question is answered in one of them.
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JamesCaruso
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When I stand before Christ, I will be alone. My moral decisions are my own. Can you imagine where that principle would leave me? My wife is Jewish!
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JamesCaruso
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You have decided that you cannot know. My reasoning didn’t take me there. I am not criticizing you, but my faith told me that Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would be present to lead his Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. When I see now two churches claiming to be the authentic Church of Christ, I must decide between the two, especially since they are teaching quite different things on important doctrinal matters. I cannot in good conscience stand before Christ and say that I could not decide which one was the true church. For me the evidence lines up on the side of the Catholic Church, and that is why I am a Catholic. I have felt more spiritually fed by homilies at times outside the Catholic Church. I have felt more Christian fellowship oftentimes outside the Catholic Church. I have felt more reverence for God and more heartfelt praise for God sometimes outside the Catholic Church. But I have never found more truth anywhere outside the Catholic Church. I have never had absolute confidence in any other Christian faith, Orthodoxy or Protestant. I respect you for your opposite conclusion, but for the life of me, I don’t know how you got there.
It’s true as you say that every thing that Catholics say has a response, and vice versa. But I do not feel that the erudition of scholars on either side has any bearing on my decision. Why? Because I believe that Jesus made us capable of reading the scriptures, listening to the arguments on both sides, and then deciding for ourselves. “My sheep hear my voice.” The essentials are not all that complicated. People come away with different answers for different reasons, but I believe with all my heart that his sheep hear his voice, and so, I conclude without passing judgment on either of us that one of us is in error and does not hear his voice in this matter for whatever reason. Whichever one of us it is will have to stand before Jesus where our innermost heart will be bared. Of course, it is possible to choose wrongly without guilt due to non-negligent ignorance. One of us may have to plead that defense. I hope it’s not me. But that is all the more reason to stay engaged in dialogue, since by exchanging of beliefs and the reasoning behind them, we can come to know if we have been ignorant and amend out lives accordingly. Do you agree?
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JamesCaruso
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I understand that you believe that God ratified your choice through your wife, but I don’t have to agree with you, do I? Not stone tablets or writing in the sky, but I am expecting to find the answer in my heart, sometimes, but not necessarily corroborated by outside events, but one of them would not be the opinion of my wife. That opinion is based on “her” discernment or lack thereof. My moral decisions must be based solely on my discernment, not that of others. Just like Adam had to discern for himself, I feel the same moral obligation. And please don’t read anything into that reference more than I believe the sole responsibility for my decisions rest on me alone. I believe God gives all who seek sufficient light to make the right decision. Sometimes it’s not easy and it seems to drag out forever, but as a nun once told me, “Perseverance wins the crown!”
When I feel drawn to another religion, I ask myself, “Does the reason why I am drawn to this religion make it superior overall to my religion?” That is the only criteria that I believe is valid. As I have said before, many religions have given me something I did not have in my particular parish, but when weighed in their totality, I have never found a religion that had what is offered by the Catholic religion with all its human failings. Until it can be shown that the Holy Spirit does not in fact keep the Catholic Church inerrant in its teachings of the faith, I will remain Catholic, even though I know the same Holy Eucharist may be present elsewhere. But I will not shut my eyes. God does not want blind faith.
I don’t believe it sound ridiculous that God can speak though one’s spouse. God can speak though a rock if he so desires. What I am saying is that in making moral decisions, only we ourselves can decide. What your wife says is not the point-- your belief that it is God speaking through her is the critical part. Being one flesh has nothing to do with making personal moral decisions. My wife is the last one I would rely on for the particular discernment we are talking about-- Why? Because she has a vested interest. I would give more weight to a disinterested party. But in the end, it always comes back to our own discernment, not someone else’s. If we are pure of heart, with no baggage biasing us one way or the other, no impatient desire to get an answer when one does not seem forthcoming, then our decision is either God’s will or our ignorance has misled us. Again, that is why it is important to always stay engaged, answering whenever someone questions our faith.
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ConstantineTG
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In Orthodoxy we are taught that we are condemned alone, but we are saved together. Salvation is not a one-on-one thing. As I said, Marriage as a Sacrament is for our salvation, including the one we are married to. Becoming one flesh is a mystery of communion the same was that we become one with Christ without being absorbed or assimilated.
My journey is my own. Like I said, I cannot tell everything as if I am writing a novel. I don’t think anyone is interested in my life anyway save for God. God has led me to where I am and I found the truth, no matter what the journey may be like.
I believe I chose rightly with my own conscience. My wife’s own decision gives me the confidence that what I feel to be the truth is indeed the truth. Any apprehension I had was removed when she herself wanted to do this. Even today she surprises me how much “into it” she is with Orthodoxy that I have never seen with her when we were Catholics.
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JamesCaruso
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I’m sorry you feel I am judging you. I am only trying to judge/weigh your written words and respond to them with honesty. Isn’t that what we should be doing? Please don’t take it personally. I don’t want to alienate you. I would rather have you for a friend. I don’t believe in covering up my real beliefs and opinions on such important discussions as our respective religious faiths, as one might do at a cocktail party. But I will try to take your word for it and tone it down a notch or two. The last thing I want to do is be offensive. Peace.
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ConstantineTG
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And isn’t my wife my heart? Like I said in my previous post, salvation is not to be worked on individually. That is why we assemble as a Church, that is why Christ commands us to love one another, including our enemies. We are never saved alone, we are only condemned alone when we separate ourselves from everyone else, especially those whom we share Sacramental Union. That is, those who belong to the same Church as we do sharing the same Eucharist, and of course those who share the Sacramental bond of marriage with each of us.
My faith isn’t blind. As you said, you won’t leave the Catholic Church unless you found it to have erred in doctrinal matters. I have.
Well, I completely disagree with you here. What else is the purpose of the Sentimentality of the marriage if it is not used to bring us to the Kingdom? Why does every other Sacrament is for the grace of coming back to God, but marriage isn’t? That doesn’t make sense to me, and it doesn’t make sense to the Fathers of the Orthodox faith.
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