Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

[brb3]

A) By finding Christ I meant being born again, meeting Him as Lord for the first time. perhaps ,but where have you plcaed it? Remeber most are "born "Catholic,that is baptized by parents and soon confirmed.It would be against cc teaching to apply the prayer if you are already “Catholic”,for you are already supposedly “born again”.,

B) I am reminded of worldly ,corporate competitiveness,and work ethic ,“What have you done for me lately.” That CC teaches we all are indebted to her does not change the fact of so many of her “kids” get saved in protetstantism today,still.

A— What’s water Baptism got to do with it ? … receipt of HS ?

B — Again, some Cradle Catholics / Baptized for sure … may leave church w/o receipt of H.S. as adult [never got Confirmed]. And, this [born or Spirit] … can certainly occur in the Protestant churches. You use term ‘getting saved’ … as equivalent to Baptism by Fire. But next, both Protestants & Catholics [confirmed in H.S.], must persevere in well doing…because OSAS is not Biblical teaching.

Recall Cornelius and Paul received H.S. … BEFORE they received water baptism.

 

[pocohombre]

A— What’s water Baptism got to do with it ? … receipt of HS ?

B — Again, some Cradle Catholics / Baptized for sure … may leave church w/o receipt of H.S. as adult [never got Confirmed]. And, this [born or Spirit] … can certainly occur in the Protestant churches. You use term ‘getting saved’ … as equivalent to Baptism by Fire. But next, both Protestants & Catholics [confirmed in H.S.], must persevere in well doing…because OSAS is not Biblical teaching.

Recall Cornelius and Paul received H.S. … BEFORE they received water baptism.

Again, I said some Catholics go thru this experience but they would not coin it born again, because they are taught they are born again at water baptism with Confirmation baptizing them in the Spirit.Are you not taught you are regenerated at water baptism ? Are you not taught you are baptized as soldiers of Christ,with power at Confirmation? …So Catholics who have had both rites/sacraments as youngsters later in CC or Protestant church have another experience, where they encounter Jesus in a very personal way.The protestant will say they were born again,where all things become new, where they understand the gospel as never before etc etc. Not talking about osas, and yes some get HS before water baptism,which tells you what ? Actually most people in Acts believed BEFORE they were water baptized and how can you believe except by the gift that the Spirit brings?

 

[pocohombre]

There are different levels on which we meet Our Lord. Don’t be quick to brush this one or that one off as not being born again of water and the spirit because no physical signs follow their baptism. Many have signs but still do not walk in the fullness of the light. Because of bad teaching, their minds reject sound doctrine. These will come to realize this when they come face to face with whom they think is the devil, and find it is the Lord, often not recognized after his resurrection from the dead. You may think you possess the fullness of the truth, but verily, I say that you have only begun to taste the feast I have prepared for you. Study, therefore, to show thyself approved, and do not accept every doctrine that men have placed before you. My truth is with and in my Church and I will not abandon it. Do not give up the little I have given you because your still darkened mind cannot understand what the Spirit speaks. You will find the nourishment you need to grow in wisdom and love and truth in my Church. It is time to partake of solid food, no longer the milk of babes. And after this fashion the Lord speaks to those who are not of the true Church but believe they are, who attack the true Church because they believe it is of Satan, and who, like Paul are zealous in their persecution, until mercifully the Lord appears to them, and asks, “Saul Saul, why persecutest thou me?”

yes but born again is born again, and that only happens once.I am not talking about physical or spiritual signs following or about being baptized in the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues and all that .This is simple rebirth most would say.Believe me these Catholics mull over very carefully just what there baptism/confirmation as child meant ,and the prayers they said and about their relationship to Jesus, like was it head knowledge ,or not in Spirit ? You wanna talk about fear and trembling working out your salvation? You forget it is a big deal to go protestant .They tell me they are ostricized by their parents and family, or at least leave them very disappointed. I say that only to show you the seriousness of the "event’,and it is not done cause it is easier etc.but done with much thought…bad teaching ,poor catechism is something to look at but many I talk to were very well catechized and were participants, fully,in the Catholic life.They would say it is something else, not ignorance.ummmm, most do not say somebody or something is the devil besides the devil himself whomever you meant .Most are appreciative of the CC seeds sown .You did read that as I posted it before?..Most do not persecute the CC church at all and have very little interface with CC, at least the ones I know. Sorry if you feel otherwise. Both “sides” should be praying for one another.

 

[pocohombre]

Were it not for that critical need for objectivity,.

Again,the “switchover” is done with much thought and much objectivity, especially everything of their past Catholic life.in fact they may ponder it much more than they did while a practicing Catholic.

 

[Church_Militant]

So, I wouldn’t say " there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church " …but, I would say " if not for the Catholic Church — there would be no hope for anyone" !!

Yet the Church does actually say that.

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

It’s always best to cite specifically what the church actually teaches and not just what we think.

To be honest, I personally cannot think of a good reason that anyone would resist being Catholic if one is Christian because nowhere else will anyone find the tremendous and beautiful depths (“the genius of Catholicism” as Matthew Kelly calls it) of the Christian faith. I am constantly in awe of the never-ending and incomparable richness I encounter in my journey of faith as a Catholic which moves me to an ever deeper conversion. This is what drives me to share our most holy faith with others.

 

[JamesCaruso]

yes but born again is born again, and that only happens once.I am not talking about physical or spiritual signs following or about being baptized in the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues and all that .This is simple rebirth most would say.Believe me these Catholics mull over very carefully just what there baptism/confirmation as child meant ,and the prayers they said and about their relationship to Jesus, like was it head knowledge ,or not in Spirit ? You wanna talk about fear and trembling working out your salvation? You forget it is a big deal to go protestant .They tell me they are ostricized by their parents and family, or at least leave them very disappointed. I say that only to show you the seriousness of the "event’,and it is not done cause it is easier etc.but done with much thought…bad teaching ,poor catechism is something to look at but many I talk to were very well catechized and were participants, fully,in the Catholic life.They would say it is something else, not ignorance.ummmm, most do not say somebody or something is the devil besides the devil himself whomever you meant .Most are appreciative of the CC seeds sown .You did read that as I posted it before?..Most do not persecute the CC church at all and have very little interface with CC, at least the ones I know. Sorry if you feel otherwise. Both “sides” should be praying for one another.

And likewise it is a big deal when someone goes Catholic,

But if you really want to cause a big deal, try going Jesus. I an reading the life of st. francis by St. Bonaventure. Can you imagine leaving home to follow Jesus, your father finding you, dragging you back home, then chaining you in the basement, and trying to beat the “Jesus” out of you, literally? Yes, fear and trembling. Each man must find his own personal salvation, but like Francis, I believe it is God’s Will that the best place to find that salvation is within, not without, the Catholic Church. You might not be accepted. You might become an object of derision. They might think you’ve lost your marbles. You might suffer persecution within your own church and your own family. You might be avoided like the plague. Your constant companions might be Brothers Suffering and Pain, and your best friend might be Brother Poverty. But you will have the consolation of traveling with angels as you follow in the footsteps of the Only Begotten.

If this is where you are coming from, I can appreciate your sentiment. But I cannot, will not, ever consider leaving Jesus found only in the Blessed Sacrament in so special a way, and Mary, Mother ever solicitous for my care and well being, both enshrined in Holy Mother Church, to follow some other way to God.

 

[JamesCaruso]

The best of all examples of following Christ within the Church actually happens before the Church began. It is, of course, the holy family. Remembering that at that time, the one true church founded by God for the benefit of mankind was the Jewish faith. The Savior of the World came into that holy home, nestled in that one true faith, obeyed all its teachings, and ultimately, lived that faith to the fullest, becoming at one time its strongest proponent as a faithful member, and its fulfillment as its heralded Messiah. And if His example was that of one living His Jewish faith to the fullest, it was also an example of one living the New Faith to its fullest, the crowning achievement of Judaism, the crowning achievement of God’s relationship with His people, the crowning achievement of humankind from which everything else is at best a poor imitation, the forevermore melding of God and man, the beginning of the new and final covenant with the great I Am. Jesus, Mary and Joseph are our perfect example for living the true faith. They reveal to us God’s preference for a quiet life of humility and poverty, but rich in godliness, love and trust.

I was reading the revelations to Mary of Agreda. Describing the lives of Mary and Joseph, she writes:

In order properly to understand some of the great miracles which happened through the ministry of angels to most holy Mary and Joseph, it is necessary to take into account the magnanimity and generous faith of the saint, for these virtues were so great in him that not even the shadow of covetousness, or greediness, could find entrance into his soul. Although he labored for others, as did also his heavenly Spouse, yet never did they ask for any wages, or set a price on their work, asking payment therefor; they performed all their work not for gain, but in obedience to a request or for charity, leaving the payment of wages entirely in the hands of their employers and accepting it not as a just return for their labors, but as freely given alms. This is the perfection of sanctity, which saint Joseph learnt from the heavenly example given to him in his house by the most holy Virgin. Owing to this circumstance, that he was not paid for his work, it happened sometimes that they were in total want of food and sustenance until the Lord would provide for them.

 

[StillCatholic]

I have read so many great responses to this question in this thread. I just want to thank everyone for their thoughtful (name removed by moderator)ut.

I once left the Catholic Church, not for an easier way of living my faith but because I was trying to understand it from a human/finite point of view forgetting that Christianity is above all a subject of eternal infinte relationships with God and each other.

If one trys to understand infinite reality with finite tools of understanding, it is going to take a very long time to come to anything close to the truth. It took me 37 years. I’m now 62 years old and finally back home where I belong in the Catholic church relearning and now understanding the truths being taught.

What I can say, however, is that much of what I can now understand in the Catechism of the church, I understand through the lens of what I learned outside the church. This puzzles me. I don’t know why that seems to have been necessary in my case. At any rate, I am now back and I am so full of peace and joy in Christ.

 

[R_C]

Some believe salavation is found only in the Church.

Yes, the Church Fathers.

 

[pocohombre]

I have read so many great responses to this question in this thread. I just want to thank everyone for their thoughtful (name removed by moderator)ut.

I once left the Catholic Church, not for an easier way of living my faith but because I was trying to understand it from a human/finite point of view forgetting that Christianity is above all a subject of eternal infinte relationships with God and each other.

If one trys to understand infinite reality with finite tools of understanding, it is going to take a very long time to come to anything close to the truth. It took me 37 years. I’m now 62 years old and finally back home where I belong in the Catholic church relearning and now understanding the truths being taught.

What I can say, however, is that much of what I can now understand in the Catechism of the church, I understand through the lens of what I learned outside the church. This puzzles me. I don’t know why that seems to have been necessary in my case. At any rate, I am now back and I am so full of peace and joy in Christ.

Thank you, but what do you mean you learned much outside the church? Do you mean in another non-catholic christian church?

 

[pocohombre]

And likewise it is a big deal when someone goes Catholic,

But if you really want to cause a big deal, try going Jesus. I an reading the life of st. francis by St. Bonaventure. Can you imagine leaving home to follow Jesus, your father finding you, dragging you back home, then chaining you in the basement, and trying to beat the “Jesus” out of you, literally? Yes, fear and trembling. Each man must find his own personal salvation, but like Francis, I believe it is God’s Will that the best place to find that salvation is within, not without, the Catholic Church. You might not be accepted. You might become an object of derision. They might think you’ve lost your marbles. You might suffer persecution within your own church and your own family. You might be avoided like the plague. Your constant companions might be Brothers Suffering and Pain, and your best friend might be Brother Poverty. But you will have the consolation of traveling with angels as you follow in the footsteps of the Only Begotten.

If this is where you are coming from, I can appreciate your sentiment. But I cannot, will not, ever consider leaving Jesus found only in the Blessed Sacrament in so special a way, and Mary, Mother ever solicitous for my care and well being, both enshrined in Holy Mother Church, to follow some other way to God.

OK

 

[pocohombre]

But that is barely the point at hand. The point is whether or not the Son, in deciding to take flesh and form a mystical body of baptized of which He is head, also decided to establish a visible body with a head and a hierarchy… Why must we be so bold as to pretend that a congregation founded a few centuries ago is closer to Christ than the most ancient ,

Yes that is the CC point, a very strong emphasis on the visible but my question was to the phenomenom of so many Catholics being found in these new churches where they would say the emphasis is on finding Jesus thru rebirth for the first time, something they did not find in the “ancient” church.

Perhaps it is a rejection of the idea of a hierarchical, ministerial priesthood, of a visible head to whom we must be subject by obedience…but is this not pride? Is this not blatant disregard of all our forefathers in the Early Church did amidst the harshest persecutions?

Perhaps, but not really. Most understand the idea of discipleship,which means having someone “over” you, even a spiritual father, that you want to emulate, not to mention teachers and pastors(presbyter/bishop).

 

[JamesCaruso]

OK

Then I’m not sure what your point is, other than you believe that because so many people leave the Church, there must be something lacking in the Church.

It’s the other way around. There is something lacking in the Catholics who leave. I will wager that not a single Catholic leaves the Church for an evangelical church who believes in the Holy Eucharist, which is an essential belief of Catholicism and has been since year one of Christianity.

Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

 

[Darryl_B]

Yes that is the CC point, a very strong emphasis on the visible but my question was to the phenomenom of so many Catholics being found in these new churches where they would say the emphasis is on finding Jesus thru rebirth for the first time, something they did not find in the “ancient” church.

Can you tell me please why the protestant church has to reinvent itself with every new generation. The latest phenomenon sweeping the “what I’m looking for in a church because this one is boring and doesnt give me what I want” generation is the non-denominational buzz-word and the evangelical buzz-word. (Once it was reformed, there was reformed this and reformed that. Why reform? Because we appear modern new exciting vibrant even).

The term ‘evangelical’ often gets stuck on the front of other denominational terms as a qualifier because it is the latest craze. eg Evangelical-Presbyterian. A way of saying it’s an older church but hey we’re modern, to attract people in, but the pews are generally filled with Christians from other older churches. Church hoppers and reverts not converts.

To start a church these days you draw in the members of other churches with attractive glamour and glitz, with promises of progressive. The protestant church has become like individually branded restaurants seeking customers in a competitive market with the latest flavours to tantalize your taste-buds.

How is this finding Jesus thru rebirth for the first time as you so put it?

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

But God specifies, in word and deed, the specific acts one must do to accomplish this, starting with baptism. While the Catholic Church fulfills these tasks, it was not the Church, but Christ Himself, who defined the process. Simple declarations are not always enough in most instances (Matthew 7:21). We must act not only in word, but in action to illustrate and glorify God using the grace He gives us with such a declaration.

Salvation is not confusing, at least it should not be.

It is a gift of God. Works do not give it to you.

 

[pocohombre]

Salvation is not confusing, at least it should not be.

It is a gift of God. Works do not give it to you.

Amen.It’s in the old BaltimoreCatechism. What is faith? Faith is a gift from God.

 

[pocohombre]

Then I’m not sure what your point is, other than you believe that because so many people leave the Church, there must be something lacking in the Church.

It’s the other way around. There is something lacking in the Catholics who leave. I will wager that not a single Catholic leaves the Church for an evangelical church who believes in the Holy Eucharist, which is an essential belief of Catholicism and has been since year one of Christianity.

Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

No point, just discussing the phenomenom. I quess they would say something was lacking, for sure in themselves and perhaps something in church doctrine fundamentally . I don’t think real presence doctrine was /is the issue.The ones I talk to understood/understand CC Eucharist doctrine. So don’t make that wager, but you are right, something was lacking in them (the "departed’) .

 

[JamesCaruso]

No point, just discussing the phenomenom. I quess they would say something was lacking, for sure in themselves and perhaps something in church doctrine fundamentally . I don’t think real presence doctrine was /is the issue.The ones I talk to understood/understand CC Eucharist doctrine. So don’t make that wager, but you are right, something was lacking in them (the "departed’) .

I cannot fathom a person who truly believes in the Holy Eucharist leaving it for any reason whatsoever. That is tantamount to saying that they reject the life of Christ.

I can see going to the Catholic Church, and at the same time going somewhere else, as well, to take in some good preaching, some good Christian fellowship, or some other spiritual goodies (I’ve done it myself), but to leave the Eucharist with full understanding of what they are doing-- that, my friend, is incomprehensible. If their soul is not lost, it is close to it.

Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

 

[brb3]

No point, just discussing the phenomenom. I quess they would say something was lacking, for sure in themselves and perhaps something in church doctrine fundamentally . I don’t think real presence doctrine was /is the issue.The ones I talk to understood/understand CC Eucharist doctrine. So don’t make that wager, but you are right, something was lacking in them (the "departed’) .

Had they been Confirmed in HS as young adults ? If not, that might of been what caused them to seek out the HS elsewhere. As St. Augustine said … “Our hearts are restless oh Lord, until they find their rest in thee”.

Maybe some didn’t like the idea of having to persevere, and perferred the OSAS idea. Some clearly desire a Church that will allow them birthcontrol contracepting, no-fault divorces — with easy re-marriage.

But, there are alot of Catholic ‘reverts’ here … having left for Protestanism, and come back home to the Catholic Church. Ask them, what caused them to leave for a fortnite.

 

[AloysiusBologna]

Let me think about that…One God, three persons in One, made One man, One woman, selected One people, only One son, through One virgin birth, One baptism, One last supper, One Resurrection, One Church seems to be the trend…at least in this One (uni)verse……