Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

[JamesCaruso]

Are the Protestant ecclessial communities also gateways to Christ ? Do they also preach ‘Christ and Christ Crucified’ ? Have they entered by the ‘narrow’ gate … that Christ said is essential ?

Was my Trinitarian Baptism as Protestant not Efficacious, or deemed unacceptable to the CC ?

Ignorance of the true Church through no fault of their own does not disqualify souls from entering the narrow gate. As there is Baptism by desire, there is also Catholicism by desire. Satan has had 2,000 years to sow his seeds of confusion. Misunderstandings abound! The Lord will credit anyone membership in his Church so long as their ignorance is innocent and had they known better they would have joined. And, of course, they must live godly lives, just as Catholics must, as well. That’s my understanding.

 

[berk60]

Jesus defined the church and put Peter in charge. read matthew 16: 16-19

“upon this rock I will build my church” I believe is what you are referring to as far. Could it be possible that Jesus was referring to building His church on what Peter testified to? “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

 

[Chez]

Read you clearly, even feel what you are saying but…as we have discussed before, there is a tone that suggests a lack of assurance in salvation with words such as “best chance”, “better chance”. Seeing how so much is riding on your shoulders I can see why one might be more concerned with what church they are “banking” on. I am heart broken at your paradigm, for it is not necessary, not up to “best chance”. Calvary should be much more the “only” chance. Blessings.

Forgive me,

I am not an intellect. And I am not patient enough to be an Apologist!.. I am a Catholic!

I know Protestants like to say things like, “Calvary is the only chance”… But with all due respect, what exactly do you mean?

I mean really!.. Jesus suffered and died on the Cross at Calvary, and that’s it?

You are not required to cooperate in any way, other than saying things like, “Calvary is the only chance”?

Do you realize that at every Mass, Catholics, by the grace of God, are taken back to Calvary to take part in His “one” and “final” sacrifice. To offer Him and ourselves to the Father.

Honestly, I love my separated brothers and sisters, and I’ll pray for you always. But I am so tiered of your platitudes.

You pull out Scripture like a weapon… But you take out all the ammo… You know, the parts that show the establishment of a Church with a magisterium and a visible head.

A Church that is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth!

A Church with the authority to loose and to bind.

A Church with the authority to forgive or retain one’s sins.

A Church that was commanded to go and teach all that He had taught them.

Don’t just talk about Calvary… Live it!

Don’t just talk about The Way, The Truth, and The Life… Receive Him… Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity! (As He said we must do to have life)

You people are being deceived!.. If you love our Christian Faith as you say you do, research it! And don’t stop in the 1500’s… Keep going! Christianity is not 500 years old!

Read Jimmy Akin’s book, The Fathers Know Best… Stop believing the lies about the Church Christ gave us to administer His Truth’s, and His beautiful Sacraments.

God Bless all of us… We need it!

 

[Chez]

“upon this rock I will build my church” I believe is what you are referring to as far. Could it be possible that Jesus was referring to building His church on what Peter testified to? “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Sure!.. That’s part of it! But what’s up with those keys?

Why the name change? And the loosing and binding business, what’s with all that?

The Holy Bible is not a pick’n pull… Read all of it!

 

[paul_c]

“upon this rock I will build my church” I believe is what you are referring to as far. Could it be possible that Jesus was referring to building His church on what Peter testified to? “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Do you think its coincidental that Jesus called Simon “rock”? because that’s what peter means in greek. If they weren’t worried about keepign the name Peter, the translation would be " You are rock and on this rock I will build my church. Pretty straight forward
[BIBLEDRB]matt 16: 16-19[/BIBLEDRB]

And how would your interpretation make sense with verse 19, where Jesus is giving the keys to heaven and the power to bind and loose to Peter?

 

[JamesCaruso]

Thank you .Yes your bible should be "sufficient " for all truth, however it is not enough just to read it, hence my little story. Actually the bible ,the church, even Jesus Himself is of no avail unless one is born again. God is willing to illumine us, but He must first make a place in us, out of us, to contain himself and His light. You can clean up a pig ,but he is still a pig and will get dirty again. The pig must be made a lamb,metamorphise like a butterfly. Jesus, said ,“You must be born again to to see the kingdom of God.” Then the bible and church folk will make sense to a soul.

But of course this goes back to the same discussions of the past, regarding whether born again refers only to the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which Catholics believe is the sacrament of Confirmation) or water baptism, which alone is what Jesus commanded (Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.).

When Paul laid hands on people and they received the Holy Spirit (in a dramatic and full way), he did not say, "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and… " He, too, practiced water baptism as the commandment of the Lord. If the “born again” experience were critical to salvation, the Lord would have commanded it. Truth is, all baptized persons are “born again,” only their experience of it is not necessarily “felt” in any dramatic way.

To speculate a bit, I think the early Apostles just experiencing the descent of the Holy Spirit so strongly as to be visible as tongues of fire over their heads, and Paul, who had an amazing and unique personal encounter with the risen Lord, were all so greatly filled with the Holy Spirit that whoever they touched received the Spirit in a dramatic way.

In the sacrament of Confirmation we think of it as a strengthening of the Spirit in the person, who has already received the Holy Spirit in Baptism. Even today, "when adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation, as was the case in the days of Saint Paul. "

The CC expresses the effects of Confirmation in this way:

… Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

—it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, “Abba! Father!”;

—it unites us more firmly to Christ;

—it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;

—it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;

—it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:

I personally received the type of baptism of the Holy Spirit as done by Saint Paul. It was dramatic and it was a felt experience. I do not believe it rendered me saved. What it did was stir up what was already within me, and released the Spirit to an even greater degree in my life. Why, when I had already been baptized and confirmed? I believe it was because I was more ardently seeking a deeper walk with Christ, and because many people, already on fire with the Holy Spirit, were praying for God to let me experience a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit than I had ever experienced before.

Was I born again by this experience? No. I had already been born again through Baptism. Was I re-born again? No. If, for example, every time a holy person prayed and received more of God’s Spirit he was considered “re-born again” he would be born again several times a day, There is no indication in the Bible that God wants us to be born again and again and again. It is once and for all. We can fall away from it, but forgiveness is always available. Believe me, since my experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit I have not lived a perfect life. Far from it! But I do see things more clearly, and it has made a dramatic difference in my life, and yes, I agree with pocohombre that Catholics need to more than just read the truth, they must put it into practice. But real Catholics know that. It’s the nominal Catholic who gives lip service to the truth. It’s the practicing Catholic who allows the Holy Spirit to bring his life into conformity with that truth by conviction and conversion.

 

[Brendan_64]

Actually I did not say that God is looking down on us wondering what we would do next. I am merely saying that what God wants depends on our actions. If you are a good person, he may want us to associate with you…

What God wants does not depend on our actions at all. And God does not want people to associate with good people, he wants us to associate with all peoples. Christ made a point of associating himself with those considered to be ‘bad’ people - prostitutes, tax-collectors etc.

What God wants for us does not depend on how we behave. God loves us all unconditionally and wants the same for all of us. However, we have free will and if we choose to separate ourselves from God then we are damned by our own actions, despite the fcat that God does not want us to be damned.

Tomorrow if you do something evil, he may think it better for us not to be associated with you any longer.

Absolutely not. God does not want us to disassociate ourselves with sinners. He wants us to reach out to and associate with sinners, just as He did when he was on Earth.

You can not be so sure that God thinks the Catholic church is perfect for everyone right now.

The Catholic Church is the Church that He formed when He was on Earth. All other Christian Churches have been formed by mortal men, and in doing so they acted in direct contravention to God’s Law by committing schism.

It is not about what church is right for the individual, it is not about the individual at all, it is about God. He set up a Church to save mankind from damnation, it is not for men to act in opposition to Christ’s Church on Earth because he disagrees with it. Christ set up His Church, it is our duty to show obedience to the will of God.

 

[openmind77]

Only if you take your eyes off the fullness of truth that it conserves; focusing on the human element will show the Church deficient in every age. Even Christ’s original contingent, handpicked by the Lord of lords, contained a betrayer and a denier. That’s one sixth of the original twelve, and we really don’t know the details of the rest, other than the fact that they all fled at his capture and only one of the twelve, John, we are told, was present at his execution.

So I say, “Yes!” you can be sure that God thinks the Catholic Church is perfect for everyone right now.

+Peace.

This is indeed very logical. To paraphrase your post: The Catholic Church maybe deficient at times (maybe sometimes more than other churches) … some stuff about apostles 2000 years ago … hence you can be sure about what God thinks - that the Catholic Church is perfect for everyone right now.

My point being - it is presumptuous to claim you know what God thinks/wants when there is even a small reason that it may not be so.

 

[berk60]

Sure!.. That’s part of it! But what’s up with those keys?

Why the name change? And the loosing and binding business, what’s with all that?

The Holy Bible is not a pick’n pull… Read all of it!

Maybe the keys are the salvation message.

 

[berk60]

Do you think its coincidental that Jesus called Simon “rock”? because that’s what peter means in greek. If they weren’t worried about keepign the name Peter, the translation would be " You are rock and on this rock I will build my church. Pretty straight forward
[BIBLEDRB]matt 16: 16-19[/BIBLEDRB]

And how would your interpretation make sense with verse 19, where Jesus is giving the keys to heaven and the power to bind and loose to Peter?

It seems that a key would open something. Since we are talking about the kingdom of Heaven I would think that the only key that would open the lost to it would be the salvation message that the believers are to be ambassadors of delivering to unbelievers.

 

[pocohombre]

Are the Protestant ecclessial communities also gateways to Christ ? Do they also preach ‘Christ and Christ Crucified’ ? Have they entered by the ‘narrow’ gate … that Christ said is essential ?

Was my Trinitarian Baptism as Protestant not Efficacious, or deemed unacceptable to the CC ?

Back in 3-4 th Century Pope Stephen made a ruling that such baptisms are aceptable and no need for re- baptism.The ruling still stands today. It is interesting that I read that the reasoning was flawed however,at least by todays dogma. He ruled such because he said baptism is not regenerational,(giving of the H S) but merely for remission of sins.

 

[pablope]

“upon this rock I will build my church” I believe is what you are referring to as far. Could it be possible that Jesus was referring to building His church on what Peter testified to? “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

No. Can you explain how was the church built on a testimony?

We catholics take both, the testimony and Peter himself, you cannot separate one from the other.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Jesus is the gate but so too is the Catholic Church. As Pope Francis says, you can’t separate the two.

So, too, is the Most Blessed Virgin.

St. Bonaventure said in his concise way, “No one can enter Paradise unless he passes through Mary, who is the gate.”

St. Augustine said that all the predestined on earth are enclosed in the womb of Mary.

St. Alphonsus ventured to say, “He who loves Our Lady can be as sure of Paradise as if he were already there.”

St. Anselm adds, “O Mary, it is impossible that anyone who has recourse to you should perish.”

“Mary,” St. Bernard writes, “is the ark by means of which one escapes the shipwreck of eternal damnation.

There is a chorus of strong voices from St. John Chrysostom to St. Bernard, from St. Alphonsus to St. Maximilian M. Kolbe, who teach that, while Jesus is King of Mercy and Justice, Our Lady is Queen of Mercy only.

All of this and more can be found at theotokos.webs.com/marys_page/art_02am25.html

 

[berk60]

No. Can you explain how was the church built on a testimony?

We catholics take both, the testimony and Peter himself, you cannot separate one from the other.

See post #536

 

[Bballer32]

“upon this rock I will build my church” I believe is what you are referring to as far. Could it be possible that Jesus was referring to building His church on what Peter testified to? “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

no because he then references the other apostles in Mat. 18:18

 

[Mgray82]

it is presumptuous to claim you know what God thinks/wants when there is even a small reason that it may not be so.

Out of curiosity, what religion claims that they don’t know what God thinks/wants?

Why would you want to be Hindu if the religion didn’t claim to have all the answers? Why would someone of full conscious join a religion that claimed that they didn’t know God’s revelation to humanity while another religion claims that they have God’s full revelation?

Your comment there contradicts your own religious claim as a “Hindu”.

 

[Chez]

Maybe the keys are the salvation message.

Wow!.. You’re a contortionist!

“I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom.”

That Peter was a lucky guy!.. He’s the only one who got the message!

Hey!.. What’s it like to be able to interpret Scripture all on your own?
It must get pretty daunting!

I hope you get it right!.. Better still, why don’t you let His Church handle that sort of thing.

You know, Jesus was a pretty smart guy! I think He knows, how fickle, stubborn, proud, indulgent and lazy we can all be. Why on earth would He leave us on our own to decern matters such as these?.. Think about it!

I beats all the bending and twisting you Protestants have to do in denying His One, True Church.

P.S.- you are still ignoring the name change, the binding and loosing and so on… Try again, but don’t break anything as you bend, twist and squirm!

I love you brother! And I’m praying for you!

 

[berk60]

no because he then references the other apostles in Mat. 18:18

After reading Matt. 18:15-20 I think your right.
In the context of those verses Jesus was telling how to deal with brethren sins. As believers we have the authority to call him out on it. Whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. It says if you have to take it finally all the way before the church. If that doesn’t help give him the boot.

Matthew 18- 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’** 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again I say[c] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”**

 

[paul_c]

It seems that a key would open something. Since we are talking about the kingdom of Heaven I would think that the only key that would open the lost to it would be the salvation message that the believers are to be ambassadors of delivering to unbelievers.

No one can help you if you won’t accept the simple reading of the text. Can’t you see what a convoluted explanation you need to deny that Peter was put in charge of the church. Notice also in John 21, Jesus, the good shepherd, tells Peter to tend his flock. How do you answer that? And how do you explain away Peter’s leadership in the first half of Acts, where he is shown replacing Judas, interpreting scripture, defining baptism as needed for salvation, speaking for the Apostles to the people and the authorities, excommunicating Simon Magnus and defining the doctrine that Christians didn’t need to follow the Jewish ceremonial laws.

 

[brb3]

I personally received the type of baptism of the Holy Spirit as done by Saint Paul. It was dramatic and it was a felt experience. I do not believe it rendered me saved. What it did was stir up what was already within me, and released the Spirit to an even greater degree in my life. Why, when I had already been baptized and confirmed? I believe it was because I was more ardently seeking a deeper walk with Christ, and because many people, already on fire with the Holy Spirit, were praying for God to let me experience a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit than I had ever experienced before.

Was I born again by this experience? No. I had already been born again through Baptism. Was I re-born again? No. If, for example, every time a holy person prayed and received more of God’s Spirit he was considered “re-born again” he would be born again several times a day, There is no indication in the Bible that God wants us to be born again and again and again. It is once and for all. We can fall away from it, but forgiveness is always available. Believe me, since my experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit I have not lived a perfect life. Far from it! But I do see things more clearly, and it has made a dramatic difference in my life, and yes, I agree with pocohombre that Catholics need to more than just read the truth, they must put it into practice. But real Catholics know that. It’s the nominal Catholic who gives lip service to the truth. It’s the practicing Catholic who allows the Holy Spirit to bring his life into conformity with that truth by conviction and conversion.

Interesting testimonial !

Did this ‘Baptism of Fire’ come at occasion of your Catholic Confirmation by Priest / Bishop … like did for Apollos and friends, in Acts ?

Sounds like it happened later in life …