Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

[JamesCaruso]

That’s a really bad argument x.x the church is the body of christ, including every denomination who believes in Christ’s resurrection. Doctrine keeps us from being one, and The catholic church has far too much doctrine

That’s like arguing that the Bible has far too many books.

Which doctrine do you want the Catholic Church to put aside? Could it be the ones where it disagrees with the Protestant churches? And what would be the result? The opportunity for a coming together of Christianity into one church which you might call the essentials of Christianity, and what we would call a watered down Christianity devoid of many essentials, not the least of which would be the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist?

Or look at it this way: if the Church eliminated all of its doctrines except one, transubstantiation, would that be acceptable? I’ll answer my own question. No! There would still be no progress made with Protestantism. Orthodoxy is a different case; different doctrines separate us.

It is not totally, but largely, the Holy Eucharist that keeps Catholics and Protestants apart, just as it kept many from following Jesus.

After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. John 6:66.

 

[pocohombre]

This perfectly fits with my understanding of Christ’s teaching. Thank you.

No, thank you. Perfect timing for your word of encouragement.

 

[JamesCaruso]

That’s like arguing that the Bible has far too many books.

Which doctrine do you want the Catholic Church to put aside? Could it be the ones where it disagrees with the Protestant churches? And what would be the result? The opportunity for a coming together of Christianity into one church which you might call the essentials of Christianity, and what we would call a watered down Christianity devoid of many essentials, not the least of which would be the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist?

Or look at it this way: if the Church eliminated all of its doctrines except one, transubstantiation, would that be acceptable? I’ll answer my own question. No! There would still be no progress made with Protestantism. Orthodoxy is a different case; different doctrines separate us.

It is not totally, but largely, the Holy Eucharist that keeps Catholics and Protestants apart, just as it kept many from following Jesus.

After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. John 6:66.

Sorry, edit time ran out.

The way to proceed is to sit down, as we have been doing, and discuss our doctrinal differences, going back to study the biblical sources that are the cause of our differences. Maybe we have missed something. Maybe additional light can be shed on existing understandings as was the case in the Lutheran/Catholic joint declaration on the doctrine of justification.

In the above post, I was talking at you, which is admittedly no way to resolve differences. We have to begin talking with each other and not at each other nor past each other.

 

[Michele_Boyer]

The Eucharist is present in the Orthodox Churches as well, but their separation from Rome is not God’s will.

I asked about that once while we were traveling and a priest told me that Roman Catholics are free to take Communion from the Orthodox Church, but that the Orthodox Church does not recognize Roman Catholicism, and will not permit us to take Communion there, just as Protestants, Evangelicals, etc. cannot (should not) take Communion in the Roman Catholic Church.

He also told me that one of the main reasons the Orthodox split from the Roman Church was over the Council of Nicaea, where the Nicene Creed acknowledged the Trinity, and equality of the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox Church held to the pre-Nicene Council tenets.

I also understand that the Eucharist MAY be present in some of the Protestant churches where the priest/minister was ordained by a bishop who can trace succession back to a valid ordination by a Catholic Bishop, but with each generation that becomes less likely. I’m not at all sure how true that is, or if I remember it correctly.

 

[Michele_Boyer]

… I am a Ukrainian Catholic (Byzantine Rite). I…

I didn’t see your post before I made my comment about the Orthodox church. I think you’re (name removed by moderator)ut here could be very educational and interesting.

I’ve always asked Protestants and other non-Catholics if they learned what they believe about Catholics from Catholic leaders or from their pastors (who are biased and influenced by their teachers, who were influenced by their, etc, etc.)

I heard what I stated from a Roman Catholic priest. It would be nice to hear from you about those rules on receiving Communion in the Orthodox Church. Since I would respect that should I attend Mass there, I would like to know. On the other hand, I’d hate to miss receiving the Eucharist because I was misinformed.

 

[paul_c]

asked about that once while we were traveling and a priest told me that Roman Catholics are free to take Communion from the Orthodox Church, but that the Orthodox Church does not recognize Roman Catholicism, and will not permit us to take Communion there, just as Protestants, Evangelicals, etc. cannot (should not) take Communion in the Roman Catholic Church.

This is incorrect. the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orthodox holy orders but it requires a joint agreement between bishop and catholic bishops for a CAtholic to recieve Orthodox communion.oca.org/questions/divineliturgy/receiving-communion

He also told me that one of the main reasons the Orthodox split from the Roman Church was over the Council of Nicaea, where the Nicene Creed acknowledged the Trinity, and equality of the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox Church held to the pre-Nicene Council tenets.

This is also incorrect. the great schism was in 1054 AD. the council of Nicea was in 325 AD. Both the CAtholics and Orthodox accept the teaching of the council of Nicea There were many subtle reasons that the schism occurred, some theological, some political.

I also understand that the Eucharist MAY be present in some of the Protestant churches where the priest/minister was ordained by a bishop who can trace succession back to a valid ordination by a Catholic Bishop, but with each generation that becomes less likely. I’m not at all sure how true that is, or if I remember it correctly.

thisis also incorrect. For Jesus to be present in the eucharist requires valid holy orders. this means not only apostolic succession but recognition by the Church of the validity of these orders. No Protestant church has that recognition. Most don’t even believe in the real presence of Jesus in the eucharist.

 

[Michele_Boyer]

This is incorrect. the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orthodox holy orders but it requires a joint agreement between bishop and catholic bishops for a CAtholic to recieve Orthodox communion.oca.org/questions/divineliturgy/receiving-communion.

That may have been what he told me, as he also said that the local Orthodox Church wouldn’t give permission. This was easily 8 or 9 years ago. Thanks.

 

[berk60]

Does God want everyone to be Catholic? I guess the question was answered by the Pope.

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!"

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

 

[paul_c]

Does God want everyone to be Catholic? I guess the question was answered by the Pope.

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!"

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

That’s not the question that the Pope answered. Did you read his statement? He was answering the question of whether an atheist can do good. From the article you quoted:

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Its not shocking that the Pope would teach that atheists can do good works. St. Paul testified to this fact in Romans where he discussed the concept of the Natural law. But if you asked Pope Francis if God wants everyone to be Catholic, I am pretty sure he would say , " yes, that’s the point of the new evangelization."

 

[berk60]

That’s not the question that the Pope answered. Did you read his statement? He was answering the question of whether an atheist can do good. From the article you quoted:

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Its not shocking that the Pope would teach that atheists can do good works. St. Paul testified to this fact in Romans where he discussed the concept of the Natural law. But if you asked Pope Francis if God wants everyone to be Catholic, I am pretty sure he would say , " yes, that’s the point of the new evangelization."

I know everyone is capable of doing good but I’m confused at the part where the Pope said that because of Christ blood everyone is redeemed. This would seem to mean that everyone has a shot of being saved because of Jesus completed work on the cross, not just Catholics but whoever accepts Christ as savior.

 

[paul_c]

I know everyone is capable of doing good but I’m confused at the part where the Pope said that because of Christ blood everyone is redeemed. This would seem to mean that everyone has a shot of being saved because of Jesus completed work on the cross, not just Catholics but whoever accepts Christ as savior.

St. Paul says this as well. Jesus died so that all men MIGHT be saved. God’s grace is available to all, He calls to all men through their consciences and their ability to reason. he’s calling to the atheists as well. Those that will be saved are those that answer that call. Pope Francis points out that if the atheists do good work, we can meet them there as a point of commonality. Many atheists are converted when they come in contact with God in a meaningful way. That often is through service.

it seems to me that you are confused because you think of salvation as a one time event, achieved through the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is more appropriate to describe salvation as a process of becoming truly holy, with your will aligned to God’s. For atheists, they can start aligning their will to God’s by following their consciences prior to actual belief in God. Pope Francis’ point is that the atheist should not be dissuaded from doing so, but in fact should be encouraged in doing good works as a stepping stone to salvation.

 

[berk60]

St. Paul says this as well. Jesus died so that all men MIGHT be saved. God’s grace is available to all, He calls to all men through their consciences and their ability to reason. he’s calling to the atheists as well. Those that will be saved are those that answer that call. Pope Francis points out that if the atheists do good work, we can meet them there as a point of commonality. Many atheists are converted when they come in contact with God in a meaningful way. That often is through service.

it seems to me that you are confused because you think of salvation as a one time event, achieved through the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is more appropriate to describe salvation as a process of becoming truly holy, with your will aligned to God’s. For atheists, they can start aligning their will to God’s by following their consciences prior to actual belief in God. Pope Francis’ point is that the atheist should not be dissuaded from doing so, but in fact should be encouraged in doing good works as a stepping stone to salvation.

Salvation is a one time event. You are only born again once just as you are physically only born once. Once you truly belong to Christ no one can snatch you away from Christ. An atheist can eventually repent and believe that Jesus died for his sins because God has written His law in every mans heart.

 

[PRmerger]

Does God want everyone to be Catholic? I guess the question was answered by the Pope.

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!"

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

I wouldn’t interpret this to mean that atheists need not be Catholic, anymore than it means that atheists need not believe in Christ, in order to be saved.

No one here who’s a Christian believes that atheists are saved except through saying Yes to Christ.

 

[paul_c]

Salvation is a one time event. You are only born again once just as you are physically only born once. Once you truly belong to Christ no one can snatch you away from Christ. An atheist can eventually repent and believe that Jesus died for his sins because God has written His law in every mans heart.

if this is true, why did Jesus and the Apostles spend so much time explaining how to live as Christians? And why did St. Paul say he was working on his salvation with fear and trembling? And why did Jesus say his was the vine and we are the branches adn that we must stay attached to the vine? And why in Luke 18, when the rich young man asked Jesus directly what it took to be saved, did Jesus answer " follow the commandments" if it was a one time, unalterable event.

Oh and by the way, the sheep can never be snatched away from Christ, but they can wander away on their own. Jesus respects our free will and will not force us to love and follow him against our will.

 

[PRmerger]

Salvation is a one time event.

Well, in one sense you are correct. Your timing is just a bit off.

We are saved when we die. Period. That’s the one time event that happens.

However, in another sense, salvation is ongoing. I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Salvation is a one time event. You are only born again once just as you are physically only born once. Once you truly belong to Christ no one can snatch you away from Christ. An atheist can eventually repent and believe that Jesus died for his sins because God has written His law in every mans heart.

I am confused, then, why Paul would exhort the Philippians to ‘work out your own salvation with fear and trembling’?

We receive initial justification once through the Holy Spirit in baptism, but salvation, just like sanctification, is a journey. We (mankind as a whole) have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, but even Our Lord teaches that He will separate the sheep from the goats on the basis of their works in faith, and that not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom.

 

[Chez]

Salvation is a one time event. You are only born again once just as you are physically only born once. Once you truly belong to Christ no one can snatch you away from Christ. An atheist can eventually repent and believe that Jesus died for his sins because God has written His law in every mans heart.

And there it is in a nutshell!.. “Once you truly belong to Christ, no one can snatch you away from Christ”.

We no longer have free will.

We can now do as we please, because we belong to Jesus Christ, and no matter how vulgar we get, no matter how uncooperative, no matter how sinful… We have a free ticket to heaven.

Heck!, We don’t even have to forgive anyone anymore… No wait! That can’t be right!
The Protestants final authority doesn’t even say that!

I’m telling you berk60, you can’t keep making it up as you go. That’s just too easy.

The world is going to hell in a hand basket and you Protestants keep pushing the line further and further back to suit your needs!.. That’s not Faith. That’s wishful thinking!

Please, for Gods sake and your own… Go attend a Mass in an orthodox Catholic Parrish!

You will see for yourself… It’s not just a bunch of fluff! It is truly the worshiping of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!

God wants you to be Catholic!

 

[berk60]

I wouldn’t interpret this to mean that atheists need not be Catholic, anymore than it means that atheists need not believe in Christ, in order to be saved.

No one here who’s a Christian believes that atheists are saved except through saying Yes to Christ.

Of course atheists have to come through Christ for salvation but the atoning sacrifice has opened salvation up to them as well as the Catholic’s, Protestant’s, the murderers the tax collectors, everyone. Everyone who will put their trust in Christ. You don’t have to belong to a certain church, you don’t have to add anything to the the completed work of God on the cross. Seek the truth with all your heart and have a teachable spirit and you will find it.

 

[paul_c]

Of course atheists have to come through Christ for salvation but the atoning sacrifice has opened salvation up to them as well as the Catholic’s, Protestant’s, the murderers the tax collectors, everyone. Everyone who will put their trust in Christ. You don’t have to belong to a certain church, you don’t have to add anything to the the completed work of God on the cross. Seek the truth with all your heart and have a teachable spirit and you will find it.

Agreed, If you seek the truth with a teachable spirit, you will find it. If you do indeed have this teachable spirit, you will most certainly find that the fullness of truth lies in the original church founded by Jesus himself: the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Indeed, the Holy Spirit has led you here. Take that as the first sign of His intent for you. On these pages, if you engage honestly, all your questions will be answered and the truth will set you free, as the thousands of converts on these pages will readily attest.

 

[berk60]

Agreed, If you seek the truth with a teachable spirit, you will find it. If you do indeed have this teachable spirit, you will most certainly find that the fullness of truth lies in the original church founded by Jesus himself: the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Indeed, the Holy Spirit has led you here. Take that as the first sign of His intent for you. On these pages, if you engage honestly, all your questions will be answered and the truth will set you free, as the thousands of converts on these pages will readily attest.

I don’t see anything freeing about no eternal security that is promoted by the Catholic faith. To even have a chance you must keep all the sacrament as a lay person and then most likely when you die your suffering doesn’t end there and only God knows how long you will need to be purged in purgatory until you fit for the Kingdom of God. Whoever leaves this faith will have no part in salvation unless he returns to it.

I have seeked God with all my heart and He led me out of the Catholic faith and into the reality of His truth as found in the Bible and I’m trying to show you that reality but it seems you do not want any part of it. That is certainly your choice as God has given us a free will.

** “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10**