Does God want something from us?

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buildingwings

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I came across this thought in my head after discussing Spinoza one day:

Does God wanting something from us? If so, would that make him imperfect?

God wants us to stop sinning
If God wants something, it means he does not have it
If he does not have it, it means he is incomplete
If he is incomplete, it means he is not perfect
Since God is perfect, he has everything he wants

Discuss.
 
Does a parent’s desire for their children make them any less then parents? Be careful with the logic you choose, especially if you opt to scrutinize God, that’s a big no no.

Peace, Brian
 
God wants us to be His hand in the world. Jesus isn’t on earth anymore. It’s up to us.

He allows the world to be incomplete because that’s how much He loves us. It was free will which led to evil, the free will of the angels and of the first people. He lets it happen because we want it. He wishes for us to not want it… and so when we come back to Him of our own free will, choosing Him over evil, that’s when our love for each other is complete.
 
No, God does not want something FROM us, He wants something FOR us. There is an important distinction there. In the example given, i.e. God wants us to stop sinning, He wants that because it is good FOR US to stop sinning, but because He is somehow lessened by our sinning.
 
prodigalson12 said:
Does a parent’s desire for their children make them any less then parents? Be careful with the logic you choose, especially if you opt to scrutinize God, that’s a big no no.

Peace, Brian
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I’m not scrutinizing God. And I really hope that wasn’t an insult on my logic.

If parents were supposed to be infinite, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then a desire for their children would seem to undermine them, because there would be no need to have those desires.
 
Katholish said:
No, God does not want something FROM us, He wants something FOR us. There is an important distinction there. In the example given, i.e. God wants us to stop sinning, He wants that because it is good FOR US to stop sinning, but because He is somehow lessened by our sinning.
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The for us distinction makes more sense to me. I reject the premise of my question, because I feel that a good God would make us free, as opposed to determined.

And for the record, I am not a Spinozist, pantheist, or anything related to my original post. It’s just one of the few questions that a non-theist may ask me, that I don’t have a what I feel is a satisfactory answer for.

I guess a better question would be why would God even allow sin into this world? I mean, I understand free will, but why the need for free will when we could all be hanging out in heaven instead of struggling here on earth?
 
buildingwings said:
The for us distinction makes more sense to me. I reject the premise of my question, because I feel that a good God would make us free, as opposed to determined.

And for the record, I am not a Spinozist, pantheist, or anything related to my original post. It’s just one of the few questions that a non-theist may ask me, that I don’t have a what I feel is a satisfactory answer for.

I guess a better question would be why would God even allow sin into this world? I mean, I understand free will, but why the need for free will when we could all be hanging out in heaven instead of struggling here on earth?
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Ummm…there are 1/3 of the angels that no longer hang around in heaven, why do you think it’s a situation only man has to contend with. Eve knew full well what she was getting into, the same as with Adam, it wasn’t God that let sin into the world, it was man.
 
prodigalson12 said:
Ummm…there are 1/3 of the angels that no longer hang around in heaven, why do you think it’s a situation only man has to contend with. Eve knew full well what she was getting into, the same as with Adam, it wasn’t God that let sin into the world, it was man.
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1/3 of angels? How many angles are there to begin with? How do you know this?

I wasn’t saying that he brought sin into the world, I’m saying that he could have prevented it from ever happening.
 
buildingwings said:
I’m not scrutinizing God. And I really hope that wasn’t an insult on my logic.

If parents were supposed to be infinite, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then a desire for their children would seem to undermine them, because there would be no need to have those desires.
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You mistake the fact, we have free will, that we as humans are a work in progress, and it’s up to us to take heed to our parents correction, for a good parent will know right from wrong more then we do, thus keeping their children from trouble.
 
prodigalson12 said:
You mistake the fact, we have free will, that we as humans are a work in progress, and it’s up to us to take heed to our parents correction, for a good parent will know right from wrong more then we do, thus keeping their children from trouble.
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Your post didn’t even make grammatical sense to me, much less logical sense. Let me simplify my original question to where there is no room for misinterpretation:

If I am perfect in every way possible, why would I want anything from you, especially when I could have it out of my own power?

I suggest you watch the youtube video that was posted on this page. It’s helped me out and I’m sure you’ll enjoy it. With that said, I have to go write a paper now. Have a blessed day, brother!

-Building_Wings
 
God has sacrificed his omnipotence for us by giving us free will so that we are capable of love. He wants us to love Him as well as others because He knows love fulfils us and gives us happiness - especially when it reciprocates His infinite love.

By giving us the power to reject His love He has made Himself vulnerable to indifference and even hatred. That is why He wants our love - for our sake and also for His. He forgives us as we forgive others - and He also loves us as we love others. The more love there is the more happiness there is.

It is not a sign of imperfection for God to want love. On the contrary, it would be a sign of inconsistency and imperfection if He didn’t want love! That is why He created us…
 
God has sacrificed His omnipotence for us by giving us free will so that we are capable of love. He wants us to love Him as well as others because He knows love fulfils us and gives us happiness.

By giving us the power to reject His love He has made Himself vulnerable to indifference and even hatred. That is why He wants our love - for our sake and also for His. It is not a sign of imperfection for God to want love. On the contrary, it would be a sign of inconsistency and imperfection if He didn’t want love! After all, that is why He created us…
 
buildingwings said:
Your post didn’t even make grammatical sense to me, much less logical sense. Let me simplify my original question to where there is no room for misinterpretation:

If I am perfect in every way possible, why would I want anything from you, especially when I could have it out of my own power?

I suggest you watch the youtube video that was posted on this page. It’s helped me out and I’m sure you’ll enjoy it. With that said, I have to go write a paper now. Have a blessed day, brother!

-Building_Wings
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I am speaking of things you as a Catholic should clearly know what I say. If not, seriously, you are in no position to be defending the faith, much less God.
 
buildingwings,
I guess a better question would be why would God even allow sin into this world? I mean, I understand free will, but why the need for free will when we could all be hanging out in heaven instead of struggling here on earth?
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I know it doesn’t seem like it sometimes, but having free will truly is a great gift. As far as I know, it would have been logically possible for God to create an intellectual being without free will that could participate in the Beatific Vision (I say “as far as I know” because it might actually be an impossibility that I am unaware of). However, God wanted us to be more perfect beings, and having the capacity to love (a will) is a greater perfection than not having that capacity. God is love itself, and He wanted us to be like Him in this small respect.

P.S. the more I think about it as I write this response, the more I suspect that it might be impossible to have an intellectual being without a will, so it might simply be a logical contradiction for us not to have free will.
 
buildingwings said:
I came across this thought in my head after discussing Spinoza one day:

Does God wanting something from us? If so, would that make him imperfect?

God wants us to stop sinning
If God wants something, it means he does not have it
If he does not have it, it means he is incomplete
If he is incomplete, it means he is not perfect
Since God is perfect, he has everything he wants

Discuss.
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God wants faith from us. It does not make God incomplete or imperfect in any way.
 
tonyrey said:
God has sacrificed His omnipotence for us by giving us free will so that we are capable of love. He wants us to love Him as well as others because He knows love fulfils us and gives us happiness.

By giving us the power to reject His love He has made Himself vulnerable to indifference and even hatred. That is why He wants our love - for our sake and also for His. It is not a sign of imperfection for God to want love. On the contrary, it would be a sign of inconsistency and imperfection if He didn’t want love! After all, that is why He created us…
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God did not sacrifice His omnipotence. That is neither possible nor logical.

While the old Baltimore Catechism answer that God created us to know, love, and serve Him is correct in one sense, that really just refers to our proper end and formal cause, but not God’s “reason” for creating per se. There is a real danger in the statement that God made us so that we might love Him because it implies some deficiency in God or unfulfilled desire which again is neither possible nor logical.
 
Katholish said:
God did not sacrifice His omnipotence. That is neither possible nor logical.
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If God cannot choose to limit His power He cannot be omnipotent! How could a person defy God and frustrate His will unless God has relinquished some of His power? To the extent that the world is under our control it must be out of God’s control.
Moreover we cannot have free will if we are compelled by God’s omnipotence to do what God wants. He is directly responsible for all the evil we do if His omnipotence does not have self-imposed limitations. We would be incapable of love if everything we do is determined by God. We are made in the image of God precisely because we share in His divine power, **freedom **and capacity for love.
While the old Baltimore Catechism answer that God created us to know, love, and serve Him is correct in one sense, that really just refers to our proper end and formal cause, but not God’s “reason” for creating per se. There is a real danger in the statement that God made us so that we might love Him because it implies some deficiency in God or unfulfilled desire which again is neither possible nor logical.
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It is not a deficiency in God to have an unfulfilled desire. He took that risk when He gave us free will. He does not desire anyone to be in Hell. If He did He would be a monster! He accepts their decision to reject Him but He continues to love them because they are His children and He desires their repentance. Jesus sought out the lost sheep and continues to do so in Heaven. And He shares our suffering even now because there cannot be genuine love without suffering, sacrifice and unfulfilled desires…
 
tonyrey,

Just to clarify, I take no personal offense that you disagree with me, but I honestly think that what you are saying violates explicit Church teaching on several levels.
If God cannot choose to limit His power He cannot be omnipotent! How could a person defy God and frustrate His will unless God has relinquished some of His power? To the extent that the world is under our control it must be out of God’s control.
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Omnipotence does not imply the power to create logical contradictions, which is in fact what you are proposing. It is just like the example of the rock so heavy that God cannot lift it. no such rock is possible, and the impossibility of it does not violate God’s omnipotence. Likewise, having a limit to one’s powers means that one is not omnipotence, so if you say that God’s power is limited, you are explicitly denying this attribute. God does not have the power to limit His own power. That is a contradiction.

God is the first cause of everything that is, and so there is a sense in which the world is in no way “out of His control”.
Moreover we cannot have free will if we are compelled by God’s omnipotence to do what God wants. He is directly responsible for all the evil we do if His omnipotence does not have self-imposed limitations. We would be incapable of love if everything we do is determined by God. We are made in the image of God precisely because we share in His divine power, freedom and capacity for love.
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It is an inherent contradiction to say that God could create a free will that is not free, so the fact that God cannot force our will doesn’t imply a limit to His power but refers to a logical contradiction.
It is not a deficiency in God to have an unfulfilled desire. He took that risk when He gave us free will. He does not desire anyone to be in Hell. If He did He would be a monster! He accepts their decision to reject Him but He continues to love them because they are His children and He desires their repentance. Jesus sought out the lost sheep and continues to do so in Heaven. And He shares our suffering even now because there cannot be genuine love without suffering, sacrifice and unfulfilled desires…
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An unfulfilled desire is by definition a deficiency! A desire involves a moment of the will toward an absent good. There is, however, no good that God does not encompass and possess for He is Goodness Itself.

God does desire people to be in hell according to His consequent will but not according to His antecedent will.
 
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