Does God will death?

[MarcoPG]

Well a wage isn’t a punishment. In the Garden God didn’t say if you eat of the fruit surely I will kill you, He said if you eat of the fruit surely you will die. If I tell you if you jump of that bridge you will die if you go ahead and jump I didn’t kill you. In fact I tried to warn you. God is the source of life so when we cut ourselves off from Him we died. God certainly didn’t kill us.

I hear you, but you don’t how wage is used here. The “salary” for sin is death. That means, the reward for a life grace is eternal life (is that God who gives it to us? Yes) and the negative reward for sin is death (does God judge us? Yes. Did God curse us? Yes. Jesus took this punishment on Himslef, what we should have suffered.)

That’s why it is a just punishment. That we have a Saviour doesn’t mean that death wasn’t a punishment. It was always a consequence, sure but of something prohibited. The sin came from man, the consequence comes from Adam’s sin, yes, but what is that consequence? The punishment of a life away from Him. And we couldn’t reach Him, He had to come down.

It is by our own fault, but God says “because you did this and that, you will suffer”. There is an active role of God here, even if we did that to ourselves. Now, death has another meaning, since Christ has defeated death.

The analogy with jumping off is a bit off D), because the act kills you, but there is no punshment. This is a pure physical example, which does not contain the spiritual reality, and therefore cannot fully explain it.
But if you jump, you have consequences, ok. Was it permitted to jump, let apart the consequences? If you jump and remain unhurt, you still get the punishment.
The problem is: Is not about sin’s consequences, which can be variable temporally and eternally, it is about the very act of desobedience, the nature of sin, which isn’t allowed because not God’s Will.
Death punishment is not in the act of killing, is in the logical substraction of grace by God, permitted by freedom of choice, in that way it is a punishment in the Order God intended.

 

[PJM]

=nanomatic;12406358]Hello everybody,

I have a question and i can’t seem to find an answer.

It is known that God is love, And as such God cannot will death, and death is a cause of sin.

However, it is seen in the old testament that many times either directly or indirectly God has killed. (Such as the flood)

How can a God that is LOVE will death?

THanks in advance

Thanks for a great Q!

The answer depends on what EXACTLY you means by “God Will Death?”

When God Created man and women he had desired and planned a Utopian existence for them. They literally wanted for nothing. God provided for ALL of their needs and wants.

The one {and ONLY} thing that was missing was actually being God Himself. Not merely like God; but being God in every way that God Is God.

They gave it all up by willfully rejecting God and all that is good and introducing to man; SIN and all of its necessary effects, including DEATH. Both physical and Spiritual. And both being man’s choice.

So physical death came as a part of God’s POSSIBLE salvation for now sinful man. Man, now an Infinite creature would have a limited time to PROVE his love for God by life choices.This time frame would most often be unknown, adding to the urgency of accepting the grace God offers and rightly applying it.

God even came as Incarnate Son of God, so that the world MIGHT Know, love, obey and serve him.

God committed Himself to make available “sufficient” grace for every man to know God; and then choose freely to hate or to love God. OUR choice. So “desire” is the wrong term. God inflicted mortal death as a perpetual sign of his dis- pleasure with the Sin of Adam and Eve; and makes the very real possibility of man’s Salvation highly conditional of man making good choices and taking our crosses with humility and obedience.

God insist that we PROVE our love of and for him/ IF we do; then our tears are turned into rejoicing.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[MarcoPG]

Seraphim, would you agree if a definition of punishment would be the negative reward for something? In that sense I take it. Maybe it helps.

 

[Seraphim73]

Seraphim, would you agree if a definition of punishment would be the negative reward for something? In that sense I take it. Maybe it helps.

The issue I have is saying it is from God. Also the idea that Jesus was punished is incorrect. Again Scripture never says anything about Christ being punished.

 

[MarcoPG]

The issue I have is saying it is from God. Also the idea that Jesus was punished is incorrect. Again Scripture never says anything about Christ being punished.

It is from God as an allowance. God is the only One whose permission is an act also, by this I mean he created us free, and he could have done otherwise. But then responsability is ours. God doesn’t punish as long as he waits for our repentance.
God acts logically, consequently of sin, by letting people die. The active role is not to stop them, so that they are cursed (that is explicit) and have to suffer, and look for God to be saved. Adam didn’t need any time to repent, he desobeyed the first time.

By saying Jesus was punished, I meant he took on the punishment which was meant for us (this is also explicit in Scripture). There is a moment where the wrath of God will Judge and punish, but in Justice, so that the punishment is not evil. However, the punishement was pedagogic for Adam, it will be sentencial for the rejectors of God. Surely, it has two faces, the Freedom given to men by God, who lets men die by itself, and the Judgement afterwards, because of the act itself, not the consequence.

But Seraphim, I guess we should continue elsewhere, if you like, since on the topic we both think God didn’t want death.

 

[pacloc]

It is in God that we have life, so physical death is a training tool for us to see that sin causes spiritual death since we are withdrawing from the source of life, who is God. It is actually a very loving thing for him to give this example to learn from so as to correct us and bring us back to our senses. Otherwise we would fall further and further from God and life.

As for Jesus, he most certainly did not die to learn his lesson or to be punished for sin. It was for our benefit again, we can physically see what we do to Christ when we reject his Truth, we crucify him. We also see the love that he has for us by willing to enter into our humanity and experience the pain we have subjected ourselves to. He is so wanting to help us to learn the valuable lessons of virtue, he is willing to give his life if it means we learn to follow him and attain real freedom from enslavement to sin.

God is too good.

 

[Seraphim73]

It is from God as an allowance. God is the only One whose permission is an act also, by this I mean he created us free, and he could have done otherwise. But then responsability is ours. God doesn’t punish as long as he waits for our repentance.
God acts logically, consequently of sin, by letting people die. The active role is not to stop them, so that they are cursed (that is explicit) and have to suffer, and look for God to be saved. Adam didn’t need any time to repent, he desobeyed the first time.

Well no He couldn’t have created us any other way and He can’t stop us from doing what we do now. I mean if somebody shoots someone else God didn’t will that to happen. God didn’t have anything to do with it. You really can’t affirm anything else and still say God is God.

By saying Jesus was punished, I meant he took on the punishment which was meant for us (this is also explicit in Scripture). There is a moment where the wrath of God will Judge and punish, but in Justice, so that the punishment is not evil. However, the punishement was pedagogic for Adam, it will be sentencial for the rejectors of God. Surely, it has two faces, the Freedom given to men by God, who lets men die by itself, and the Judgement afterwards, because of the act itself, not the consequence.

It’s not explicit that Jesus took the punishment meant for us. It’s not there at all.

 

[MarcoPG]

Well no He couldn’t have created us any other way and He can’t stop us from doing what we do now. I mean if somebody shoots someone else God didn’t will that to happen. God didn’t have anything to do with it. You really can’t affirm anything else and still say God is God.

It’s not explicit that Jesus took the punishment meant for us. It’s not there at all.

He could have created us lke robots, that is what I mean.

Hum
Isaiah 53

Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him

 

[MarcoPG]

As for Jesus, he most certainly did not die to learn his lesson or to be punished for sin
God is too good.

Sure, I never said Jesus died for His sins. I said He died to defeat death, bearing our sins and was punished because of our sins that he bore. And I can therefore also say
God is too good

 

[pacloc]

It is from God as an allowance. God is the only One whose permission is an act also, by this I mean he created us free, and he could have done otherwise. But then responsability is ours. God doesn’t punish as long as he waits for our repentance.
God acts logically, consequently of sin, by letting people die. The active role is not to stop them, so that they are cursed (that is explicit) and have to suffer, and look for God to be saved. Adam didn’t need any time to repent, he desobeyed the first time.

By saying Jesus was punished, I meant he took on the punishment which was meant for us (this is also explicit in Scripture). There is a moment where the wrath of God will Judge and punish, but in Justice, so that the punishment is not evil. However, the punishement was pedagogic for Adam, it will be sentencial for the rejectors of God. Surely, it has two faces, the Freedom given to men by God, who lets men die by itself, and the Judgement afterwards, because of the act itself, not the consequence.

But Seraphim, I guess we should continue elsewhere, if you like, since on the topic we both think God didn’t want death.

I commend you for trying to understand this very difficult subject that most just freely overlook. “Yeah Jesus died for me, yada, yada.” The concept is actually not very clear to most Christians today because so much influence from people that don’t understand it. It is most definitely not true that Jesus took on punishment in our place. That would be really weird, since even in our legal system, no such thing would be justifiable. It must mean something more, and it is actually multiple reasons, but the biggest of which is that we needed God to bend down to us and lift us up out of our filth, we cannot lift ourselves out. So he chose to enter into the human family to lead us out of sin and death. So just as through spiritual death committed by Adam lead to the sin and sorrow we live in, death to this world by Jesus leads us back to spiritual life. So we are called to imitate Christ, not think he died so I don’t have to. We must pick up our cross and follow him, just as Peter did, by being crucified himself. That is why baptism is a death to this world. It is not complete until our physical death, as said in the catechism.

God Bless you and your efforts brother.

 

[friardchips]

Romans 6

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.[d] 21 But what profit did you get then from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification,[e] and its end is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What do you mean by “the idea that death is a punishment for sin is not accurate”? What is your idea?

I am with Seraphim73 on this in his posts.

To respond to the post above: this Bible quote does not in any way contradict the knowledge, that God does not inflict death on people, rather, we inflict it upon ourselves. Any other view of Christianity is partial. God might cause an animal to die (I think) because the animal’s soul is part of God’s natural creation but a person’s soul is also in care of herself due to freewill.

The above quote means that sin causes death - we do the sinning not God, and so death is just - this happens as a consequence of sin - however, God does not inflict that just-death, but instead gives us the opportunity to turn to Him. Life can often be our own punishment which we inflict upon ourselves because we make the wrong choices.

God heals. The devil accuses.

If there is any conflict between the Old and New Testament then this is because whoever is saying that God differs is simply wrong in their interpretation. This is normally the case with people who can’t accept the era of *Dei Verbum * and after.

 

[Seraphim73]

He could have created us lke robots, that is what I mean.

Hum
Isaiah 53

Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him

That doesn’t say He was punished. Jesus did take on all of our sins, even becoming sin, but that doesn’t mean God was punishing Him. He took them on to rescue us from them. And no He couldn’t have created us any other way. God is love and love dictates free will. There’s no other way it can be.

 

[MarcoPG]

So we are called to imitate Christ, not think he died so I don’t have to.

I don’t say what you accuse me of

When I say Jesus died for me, I say it the catholic way, not the protestant one I was washed of original sin through Baptism, but He took the punishment for that on His shoulders. That doesn’t mean that because of Him (oh so many rhymes, reem, oh well ) I am now free to sin. Paul is clear on that (paraphrasing): “Would I sin again because Christ die for us to be saved? Surely not!”
I know I can lose my life again, if I don’t follow my Lord the way I should.
Be sure I won’t say The Looooooord saved us! Alleluiah and then behave like an idiot because someone else did the job.

One thing to remember though is that Jesus IS the MAster true, we have to follow Him, but also the sacrificial Lamb of God, so for the sins of someone else He had to die. His mission was dual, if not more. At the very list instructional (wide intended, Church founding included, not only discourses) and sacrificial. So he fufills Israel’s history, by taking on his shoulders God’s wrath. Surely we can run around shouting once saved always saved, but it is only because of Him and HIs infinite merits that we are saved, not our works alone which would have no value per se, but because of Jesus’ merits, our works in Christ gain merit - again, which are not ours.

(Another paraphrase) “He was made sin so that we may appear clean before God.” And sin is an abomination before God.

I mean, you read I am a Catholic, didn’t you?

 

[friardchips]

Well no He couldn’t have created us any other way and He can’t stop us from doing what we do now. I mean if somebody shoots someone else God didn’t will that to happen. God didn’t have anything to do with it. You really can’t affirm anything else and still say God is God.

Exactly!

I

t’s not explicit that Jesus took the punishment meant for us. It’s not there at all.

What do you mean here please?

 

[Seraphim73]

He could have created us lke robots, that is what I mean.

Hum
Isaiah 53

Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him

I would also add that’s a really poor translation of this verse although it is common enough in most English translations. It would be rendered better “But he was wounded due to or because of our sins, and was bruised due to or because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; by his bruises we were healed.” Remember a “chastening” is not punishment, it’s a way of being cleansed or healed (the Lord chastens those He loves). The end of the verse makes that clear.

 

[Seraphim73]

Exactly!

I

What do you mean here please?

The idea that God the Father punished Christ in our stead. That concept doesn’t exist in the Bible.

 

[MarcoPG]

That doesn’t say He was punished. Jesus did take on all of our sins, even becoming sin, but that doesn’t mean God was punishing Him. He took them on to rescue us from them. And no He couldn’t have created us any other way. God is love and love dictates free will. There’s no other way it can be.

Well, you win. No without joking, I think I took the wrong word to talk of substitution.
By punishment I mean bad consequence. But I should have better distinguished the fact that the action of God is by allowing us to do so, and we actively (practically) kill ourselves.

I should have rephrased. I guess I underlined justice a bit too much. I wanted to show that if death appeared, it is not God’s will, but in His justice, He lets us freely chose.
About Jesus, I underlined too much the Lamb of God concept.

Still Isaiah says “He bore the punishment that makes us whole,
by his wounds we were healed”.

In that same manner I intend punishment, just retribution for sin.

 

[friardchips]

The idea that God the Father punished Christ in our stead. That concept doesn’t exist in the Bible.

Of course He didn’t! :thumbsup: I agree! The Bible doesn’t say Christ was punished for us by His Father. Not anywhere! If Jesus wasn’t killed by Crucifixion then He would have been killed some other how because that is what living in perfect love was always going to bring. God could have won our salvation by various means but God had predicted (because He knows everything) in the OT, that He was to die this way for us in particular due to the sinful bloodymindedness, hypocrisy and fear of others. No wonder people’s understanding of other interpretations thereafter are inaccurate when they get this vital bit wrong!

 

[pacloc]

Well no He couldn’t have created us any other way and He can’t stop us from doing what we do now.

I agree with almost everything you have said but this. Why would you think that he couldn’t have made us any other way? Where do you get that idea. I have read Church Fathers say that God could have most certainly made us different, better even. That doesn’t mean that we are deficient, it just means that God could do almost anything with his creation. We love what He has chosen to do with us. The second sentence is also not exactly true. God could and has intervened to stop things from happening. An imprisoned person cannot continue his crimes, He allows us to be caught and stopped because He loves us and wants us to learn from our mistakes. Sometimes His love for someone else can stop a thing from happening, protecting his children. I know that you know this, but the sentences you wrote say something kind of untrue.

God Bless.

 

[MarcoPG]

Just something: ewtn.com/faith/teachings/rdmpa1.htm

by Fr. William G. Most

Jesus Christ Died For Our Salvation

“The Holiness of the Father, loving all that is morally right, wanted the scales of the moral order righted, wanted the debt to be paid. Further, the imbalance was infinite, so that only a divine Person incarnate could rectify it, by giving up satisfactions He could have lawfully had, and by suffering things He did not owe, with the intention of repairing the damage done to the moral order by sin”

It is also understood that previous Covenants had seen God “punishing” the unrepentent unrighteous (Sodoma, the Flood ans so on). But that was pedagogic. Jesus saved us from eternal damnation, which was a self-inflicted but wanted by God rightful punishement in his justice and love for us. It is as if he has t punish because He is who he is, and God is logic, so His punishment is allowing us to die.

Ah, I try to define my definition of divine punishment