Does God will our death?

[jpusateri]

You DO will his punishment.

If you don’t will his punishment, and he is still punished, who punishes him?

Your son DID will the rejection of your authority, and by YOUR RULES (apparently) punishment is the “wages” of rejecting your authority.

So, is your “analogy” incorrectly worded, or under what rationale to say, “Therefore I do not will his punishment (grounding)”…?

I was trying to parallel the argument with a different situation in order to demonstrate its fallacy.

 

[Teflon93]

I was trying to parallel the argument with a different situation in order to demonstrate its fallacy.

I think you raised a fair point; it depends on how one views death, which depends of course on whether death leads to salvation or damnation.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*You DO will his punishment.

If you don’t will his punishment, and he is still punished, who punishes him?

Your son DID will the rejection of your authority, and by YOUR RULES (apparently) punishment is the “wages” of rejecting your authority.

So, is your “analogy” incorrectly worded, or under what rationale to say, “Therefore I do not will his punishment (grounding)”…?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.*

That is an excellent point I missed. The only hole I see in it is original sin, which resulted in our mortality, but which we personally did not will.

Why would we “will” our own punishment if we’ve commited no sin?

We can will either obeying God or disobeying God.

When we disobey, there are consequences. Mortality is the consequence of the “original sin”, which ALL mankind “inherit” because ALL mankind existed in Adam and Eve, and it is ALL mankind that must deal with the consequences of our original sin.

We are here, as a people (all mankind) to learn the consequences of sin, and that there is no way the we ourselves can free ourselves of continuing to sin or the effects of sin.

Jesus made it rather obvious that we can TRY to “conquer sin” but that it’s simply impossible, and the only way to get where we’re trying to get to, which is to the “sinless place”, we must rely on God alone, and to use the gifts of God, one of which is the amazing example of the perfect Adam, Jesus, ALL mankind perfected, to obey God’s laws.

Original sin was freely commited, and held God’s ordained consequences. The consequence of the original sin was not EVIL, but death, which really means a limited time to learn to obey and choose God within an environment “severly altered” by sin, or to finally decide to not obey God and choose not-God, which is hell.

It’s a distinction without a difference, given how few of us remain without sin after baptism removes original sin.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teflon93 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*True, but death is also a reward, in that one must die in this world to gain the next, right?

Damnation and death are not quite synonymous, I don’t think; had there been no Fall all would have been in heaven on Earth, would we not?*

Death is the reward? I would argue that living in union with the Divine is the reward.

Death is the key to the reward. Death is not to be feared, and if it IS feared there is something wrong. The Key that is death is to be gleefully accepted as the “Laurel” at the end of the race.

Adam and Eve rejected even living in the same garden with the Lord. So God let them have what they wanted. Separation from Him which leads to death. Now death must be overcome. Christ overcame death for those who are in HIM.

It could be argued that since we are all, in fact, immortal, what was conquered was the PERCEPTION of death as PUNISHMENT.

Separation from Him leads not to death, as death, as all things die, but rather to death as ETERNAL separation from Him.

So,… separation from Him (willingly chosen during earthly-life) leads to separation from Him (eternally).

This leads back to union. We are to abide in Christ in order to share his close relationship to God.

Christ IS God.

…but you knew that, so, uh,… sorry for stating the blindingly obvious,… yet again. </me embarressed>

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jpusateri]

Death is the key to the reward. Death is not to be feared, and if it IS feared there is something wrong. The Key that is death is to be gleefully accepted as the “Laurel” at the end of the race.

No argument from me. I was emphasizing that death itself was not the reward.

It could be argued that since we are all, in fact, immortal, what was conquered was the PERCEPTION of death as PUNISHMENT.

I’ll buy that. Death becomes irrelevant.

Not sure why you think we are immortal. Adam and Eve may have been immortal (i.e. immune from death from old age) but there’s no reason to believe that they couldn’t have been killed. Otherwise the stricture “do not eat of the fruit of the tree…lest ye die” would have been incomprehensible to them.

Separation from Him leads not to death, as death, as all things die, but rather to death as ETERNAL separation from Him.

Ok.

So,… separation from Him (willingly chosen during earthly-life) leads to separation from Him (eternally).

Yes.

Christ IS God.

…but you knew that, so, uh,… sorry for stating the blindingly obvious,… yet again. </me embarressed>

Christ and the Father are not interchangeable, so closeness to the Father (I should have said) is possible through Christ. Mea culpa.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
It could be argued that since we are all, in fact, immortal, what was conquered was the PERCEPTION of death as PUNISHMENT.

I’ll buy that. Death becomes irrelevant.

Not sure why you think we are immortal. Adam and Eve may have been immortal (i.e. immune from death from old age) but there’s no reason to believe that they couldn’t have been killed. Otherwise the stricture “do not eat of the fruit of the tree…lest ye die” would have been incomprehensible to them.

All men are creations of God which, regardless of whether we choose God or otherwise, can not be destroyed, and will, at the resurrection, when out bodies and souls are re-joined, last for ETERNITY in our chosen “abode”.

Once created, every person is immortal, but will face a time when their body and soul are separated. Nontheless,… we are by nature immortal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Christ IS God.

…but you knew that, so, uh,… sorry for stating the blindingly obvious,… yet again. </me embarressed>*

Christ and the Father are not interchangeable, so closeness to the Father (I should have said) is possible through Christ. Mea culpa.

They are different persons of God,… yes.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[jpusateri]

All men are creations of God which, regardless of whether we choose God or otherwise, can not be destroyed, and will, at the resurrection, when out bodies and souls are re-joined, last for ETERNITY in our chosen “abode”.

Once created, every person is immortal, but will face a time when their body and soul are separated. Nontheless,… we are by nature immortal.

Ah, I misunderstood. I had thought you meant physically immortal. Yes, of course, our souls are immortal.

 

[Keikiolu]

Ah, I misunderstood. I had thought you meant physically immortal. Yes, of course, our souls are immortal.

Eventually we will be physically immortal as well. That’s what the, “We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come”, part of the creed is about.

We will live eternally with our resurrected body and soul re-joined, in our choice of heaven or hell.

 

[Roman20]

Um…If God willed it, it would happen. Not all have eternal life (unless you call eternal death in Hell a different form of eternal life).

Hell in the sense that we know it does not exist, it is merely separation not an eternal torment

There is a great book on this called Hope Beyond Hell its a free PDF written by a guy who was part of Youth with a Mission

Their are 4 pillars in which the doctrine of everlasting punishment is built on and these pillars represent a misunderstanding of three greek words and one concept

They are

AION
GEHENNA
APOLLUMI
Free Will

once they are understood as the biblical writers understood them our comprehension of Gods Judgements takes on a glorious new meaning

Everything is explained in that free pdf go grab it and read, even if you think that is wrong with the head… check it out dont let fear rule you

 

[Teflon93]

Hell in the sense that we know it does not exist, it is merely separation not an eternal torment

There is a great book on this called Hope Beyond Hell its a free PDF written by a guy who was part of Youth with a Mission

Their are 4 pillars in which the doctrine of everlasting punishment is built on and these pillars represent a misunderstanding of three greek words and one concept

They are

AION
GEHENNA
APOLLUMI
Free Will

once they are understood as the biblical writers understood them our comprehension of Gods Judgements takes on a glorious new meaning

Everything is explained in that free pdf go grab it and read, even if you think that is wrong with the head… check it out dont let fear rule you

Then what was Christ talking about with the gnashing of teeth business?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Your answer lies in the book of Wisdom which is not in the Protestant Bible. Wisdom 1:13 states, "Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. He fashioned all things that they might have being; and the creatures of the whole world are wholesome.: Death entered because of sin, which was also not of God’s making. It was from a willful (exercise of free will ) turning away from God and refusing to obey and wanting to be like God. This original sin is the sin of pride. That is why we have the saying, “Pride goes before the fall.”
Deacon Ed B