Does God "worship" Mary?

[codebilly]

Billy here are your original questions:

Q - Who is the Lover in Solomon’s Canticle of Canticles (Song of Songs, Song of Solomon)?

A - The answer is the work does not reference a specific man and woman just the relationship between A man and woman as it progresses from courtship to consummation. Some suggest it’s a guide to how a woman treats her husband and vice verse. From a Jewish perspective it’s viewed as GOD’s relationship with Israel.

PEACE

But what do YOU say Canticles means?

Q - Is God “the Lover” in the book of Canticles?

From a Jewish perspective allegorically speaking yes. From a literal perspective no.

Again, what do you say it means. You seem to claim that the Bible is self revealing to those who study it. In both question above, you are quoting someone else’s “interpretations” or religious school of thought.

Q - If God is the Lover, who is the beloved?

The nation of Israel.

Are you Jewish? Just asking because your first comment was “it’s viewed as GOD’s relationship with Israel.”

Q - If the beloved is Mary, can it be said that God “worships” her?

No because the work does not speak of worship.

A matter of perspective or definition. The Lover of this book is totally rapt by the beloved. Such an expression of singular devotion clearly represents a very high form of worship.

 

[chrisb]

Does God “worship” Mary?

~NO!

But He did give her a very nice crown…

 

[Dchsknight]

God’s word is “very scandalous”? God is perfect. What exactly do you mean?

At the beginning of your post, you state “** here is what it is. **”

Later in your post you say " I think wanted to let us know it is ok"

What is it again ???

God can be Scandalous. In fact he is quite often with Jesus. He says things that make the normal Jewish world get turned up side down. I think, no, i know that people just dont read and study God’s word. Scott Hann once said that when we become christians and we follow god we become apart of God’s family. not just followers not jsut worshipers, Family, this is why St.Paul the Apostle said we are CO-Heirs in Christ. that means we are Princes and Princess because we are sons and Daughters of King. which means that God is our Father and he is all aspect of Beauty, love, Rage, Wrath, Godly Anger, Strength, uality, Power, Humility, Meekness, Provision, Warrior, Warlord, Tyrant, servant. But In all of those that strike some one as wrong, God is the correct version of those. So God is Scandalous in a way that is not wrong.

Just like when you see your father being ualy Attracted to your mother. He is being very Scandalous with her. His example shows us sons how to be what a woman needs and he does not suger coat anything and he is not PC. God’s Word is perfect. but people tend to just get prim and proper when we seem to forget, that we bear the Image of LION of Judah. not the puppy, not kitty, THE LION! we bear the Image of our king, the same king who wiped life off the face of this planet except for 8 people and some animals. THE Same king, that created Levaiathian and Behemoth.
the Same king that made some of the most dangerous creatures on this planet and said they were good. were they safe heck no, are they good in ever aspect. Our God is truly a God a War, and , just as much as the pagans who worshiped Aries and Anubis. but Our God is not only the God of war and , but the God of Love and mercy and strength. Our God is a God of power and Might as well humility and meekness. THANK GOD that i do not follow a God who preaches blessed are the Peace keepers, but Blessed are the Peace Makers. Jesus did not come to preach a gospel of Peace and love and happiness, ( all that Hippy Garbage) he came to preach a gospel of , division, and Repentance, for when he comes again it will not be with on the cross, it will be for all who oppose the king. That is our scandalous God, God said Obey my Word our i will kill you with a sword. God said to Joshua, Kill every one except for those in Rahab’s House. Jesus made a whip and beat people out of the temple, and his zeal for the house of the lord was unmatched. that is our God. As well as the same God who died on the cross to save us from our sins and bring eternal peace. Funny thing about peace. To have peace One must prepare for War. Sorry i got off topic i will have to start a new thread just for this.

 

[NDfan]

Since you say, she is not the bride of God, then how is it, that she bears God’s son?

Giving birth to GOD’s son does not make her HIS bride. You need to better understand Jewish culture here.

 

[chrisb]

Giving birth to GOD’s son does not make her HIS bride. You need to better understand Jewish culture here.

If you try to interpret the faith simply through a Jewish Filter you’ll never come to understand the Spiritual Means Christ taught to the Disciples on the Road to Emmaus. It was not a cultural interpretation of the Scriptures that we have been given but a Spiritual exegesis to understand the Faith.

 

[codebilly]

Giving birth to GOD’s son does not make her HIS bride. You need to better understand Jewish culture here.

ROTFL. That answer is actually hilarious. Really funny.

“You need to better understand Jewish culture here.” - ??

So God reigns in heaven, as a Jewish King and when everyone goes to heaven the get to become a Jew!

I hope its a Hassidic branch. I like that look best.

ps - yooo shoood grow wit yo head in da ground like an onion

 

[codebilly]

Does God “worship” Mary?

~NO!

But He did give her a very nice crown…

http://crossbr.googlepages.com/Velazquez_The_Coronation_of_the_Virg.jpg

!!!

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Much has been debated on this forum regarding Catholic devotion to Mary. Non Catholics vehemently opposed to Marian devotion quote scripture to “defend” the position that Mary is ordinary, is not an intercessor, and is not meritorious of the devotion discharged by her Catholic devotees.

Often, non Catholics conclude that Catholics “worship Mary”.

Considering that the Bible is the “Word of God”, I ask the following questions to this community:

Who is the Lover in Solomon’s Canticle of Canticles (Song of Songs, Song of Solomon)?

Is God “the Lover” in the book of Canticles?

If God is the Lover, who is the beloved?

If the beloved is Mary, can it be said that God “worships” her?

It’s not literal, billy, for one thing. This can be applied in many ways and circumstances.

I’ve read this thread and I still don’t get this. I don’t understand where you are going with this. And if the beloved is Mary, what does God and Him “worshipping” or “not worshipping” her have to do with the price of eggs in China?

 

[puzzleannie]

The song is very personal. It sings of a woman most pure and beautiful beyond all others.

If what you are saying is true, then the soul is feminine.

Do non Catholics believe that Mary is the bride of God?

yes, in classic Christian spirituality that talks of the path toward union with God, the soul is feminine, and God is masculine, in that God initiates, the soul responds, God enters, the soul receives, in the purest essentials of the meaning of those terms. That is why the human institution of marriage is an analogy of the ultimate union of God with the soul, and why marriage is so important and its essential nature must be protected.

The Song can also be seen and has by many commentators as a type of the love of Christ for his bride, the Church.

Scripture, especially mystical passages like this, are not limited to one and only one narrow interpretation, but have many layers of meaning.

Yes Mary is the child of the Father, Mother of the Son, spouse of the Holy Spirit.

 

[NDfan]

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."

Ok so what:shrug: Again this does not imply Mary is the bride of GOD.

But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”

And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

• Luke 1:31-35

Mary conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit. If you study the Greek the word used for overshadow is episkiazo which means to literally throw a shadow upon. So there’s no implication of sexual intercourse with the Holy Spirit and the church never taught this.

Does God’s word teach and support that the covenant of marriage is prerequisite for having children?

Where does scripture say that?? You need to understand Jewish culture here to understand what is going on. In the Jewish culture if a woman bears a man’s child she can marry no other man without permission first from the man she conceived the child with. That’s why Matthew 1 is so key to this. Joseph thought Mary cheated on him which would leave him only 2 options. Put her away or file charges against Mary and the man with whom she had sex. Joseph decided to put her away quietly so the family would not be disgraced. But the Angel told Joseph not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife because the child is of the Holy Spirit. Meaning Mary’s virginity was not violated, hence Mary did not cheat on Joseph. This right here shows us Mary was not considered to be the spouse of GOD and that GOD wanted Joseph to be Jesus’ father. In the Jewish culture if a woman has a child with one man then marries another, the man she marries now becomes the child’s adoptive father.

So in the end Mary is the spouse of Joseph and Joseph only.

 

[NDfan]

ROTFL. That answer is actually hilarious. Really funny.

“You need to better understand Jewish culture here.” - ??

So God reigns in heaven, as a Jewish King and when everyone goes to heaven the get to become a Jew!

I hope its a Hassidic branch. I like that look best.

ps - yooo shoood grow wit yo head in da ground like an onion

Billy no disrespect here brother but you are making foolish statements and demonstrating your obvious beginner knowledge of scripture.

 

[codebilly]

And if the beloved is Mary, what does God and Him “worshipping” or “not worshipping” her have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Why does God love her so? Is being head over heals in love with someone “worship”?

Should we worship God or should we just be in love with Him?

The mystics regarding Canticles as the highest expression of love for God.

Is that not more relevant than even every egg in China?

 

[mercygate]

The Song of Solomon…Is not an allegory. it is not a discription of of God and the church. here is what it is.

It is an instruction manual. it is basically saying, Men, this is how you are to delight in your wife. Men i have told how to love her, As i love the church, this is how you delight in her. it is also saying Woman, this is how you delight in your husband. the book really is very scandalous book. but it is God’s words on how and love is supposed to be between a husband and wife. You can ask any couple right after their honey moon and ask if it was like the Song of Solomon and most of them (if they answer you ) will say it was. God the Inventor of and Love between a husband and wife, I think wanted to let us know it is ok for us as husbands to “want” your wife and delight in her, and take pleasure in her and for wives to “want” their husbands, that is not sinful or ful it is what God designed.

In our day and Age, we have removed the value of and love and placed in the trash were every one can partake and misuse, I think God let the church keep that book, in the bible to remind us, that God made and love, and this is how we are to use it.

No need to be narrow. It is “all of the above.” *The Song of Solomon *shows us that God’s love for His people, Israel, and for His Church are, in human terms, more like the love of a bridegroom for his bride than anything else. It doesn’t have to be “this but not that.” Pointing to something beyond itself is what allegory does.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Why does God love her so? Is being head over heals in love with someone “worship”?

God chose her. That doesn’t mean He loves her any more than He loves you or me. Head over heels in love? Are you implying that the woman is Mary and that God is expressing His sensual desires for her? That would be…quite weird.

Should we worship God or should we just be in love with Him?

False dilemma. Why does it have to be either/or?

The mystics regarding Canticles as the highest expression of love for God.

Okay. So?

Is that not more relevant than even every egg in China?

What a strange, very strange thread. I’m really quite taken aback by the weirdness, your incessant questioning and confusing statements. Sorry, I just don’t get it.

 

[ellisbrasher]

religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm

tanbooks.com/doct/true_devotion.htm

 

[codebilly]

Billy no disrespect here brother but you are making foolish statements and demonstrating your obvious beginner knowledge of scripture.

Giving birth to GOD’s son does not make her HIS bride. You need to better understand Jewish culture here.

You are the one who state the above.

So let’s break it down a little more, so you can at least see why I thought your comment was funny.

“Giving birth to GOD’s son does not make her HIS bride.”

It may be true in your cultural, religious, social or personal belief that a woman bearing the child of a MAN does not make the woman his bride.

You are trying to ascribe man’s ways (cultural, religious, or otherwise) on to God. That is error #1.

Let the scoundrel forsake his way, and the wicked man his thoughts; Let him turn to the LORD for mercy; to our God, who is generous in forgiving. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts. – Isaiah 55:7-9

Your second statement:

*“You need to better understand Jewish culture here.”

• is equally, flawed.

God, His revelation, and His dealings with us, are not preceded by “Jewish culture”.

 

[codebilly]

God chose her.

Head over heels in love? Are you implying that the woman is Mary and that God is expressing His sensual desires for her? That would be…quite weird.

Why? Without sensuality there would be no population on this planet. Perhaps its only weird because of your own personal “weirdness”. (no offense)

Communion with God is also, “sensual” in various capacities. Inner Joy, Consciousness, and Bliss are not “sensual” in context of the 5 senses, but they are experienced by the soul.

What a strange, very strange thread. I’m really quite taken aback by the weirdness, your incessant questioning and confusing statements. Sorry, I just don’t get it.

Have you ever read this:

"The Rosary mystically transports us to Mary’s side as she is busy watching over the human growth of Christ in the home of Nazareth. This enables her to train us and to mold us with the same care, until Christ is “fully formed” in us (cf. Gal 4:19). "

If you truly want to go into the realm of the Mystic, then read try to understand.

Mary constantly sets before the faithful the* “mysteries” of her Son**, with the desire that the** contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power**. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary.*

What would it be like to see (and experience) God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) through “the contemplative gaze of Mary”?

See: ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Why? Without sensuality there would be no population on this planet. Perhaps its only weird because of your own personal “weirdness”. (no offense)

I just have a hard time thinking of God having lust and sexual thoughts about Mary I guess I guess that’s weird.

Communion with God is also, “sensual” in various capacities. Inner Joy, Consciousness, and Bliss are not “sensual” in context of the 5 senses, but they are experienced by the soul.

Okay. Don’t know what to do with that.

Have you ever read this:

"The Rosary mystically transports us to Mary’s side as she is busy watching over the human growth of Christ in the home of Nazareth. This enables her to train us and to mold us with the same care, until Christ is “fully formed” in us (cf. Gal 4:19). "

No, I haven’t. But, it’s very understandable.

If you truly want to go into the realm of the Mystic, then read try to understand.

Oh, okay. I’ll be sure to try to understand then

Mary constantly sets before the faithful the* “mysteries” of her Son***, with the desire that the** contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power**. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary.

Okay, yes. Understandable.

What would it be like to see (and experience) God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) through “the contemplative gaze of Mary”?

I see the contemplative gaze through many things and people, such as the apostles and writers of Scripture. And yes, it is wonderful. And?

See: ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE

I’ll read this later.

And you didn’t answer my question:
MysticWarrior:

Head over heels in love? Are you implying that the woman is Mary and that God is expressing His sensual desires for her? That would be…quite weird.

It’s weird because I don’t see God sitting there desiring Mary in a husband/wife manner. He’s not a man with those desires unless you know something I don’t.

 

[ralphinal]

God does not worship Mary. For someone to worship something, it requires an understanding that the object his higher than the worshiper. God is not able to woship anyone or anything

Mary as Bride of the Holy SPirit is not language that i like to use. It implies a physical and emotional bond that is not evident in Scriptures nor in our understanding of God.

I am Catholic, by the way

 

[NDfan]

You are the one who state the above.

So let’s break it down a little more, so you can at least see why I thought your comment was funny.

“Giving birth to GOD’s son does not make her HIS bride.”

It may be true in your cultural, religious, social or personal belief that a woman bearing the child of a MAN does not make the woman his bride.

You are trying to ascribe man’s ways (cultural, religious, or otherwise) on to God. That is error #1.

No I’m not trying to ascribe anything to GOD. My cultural, religious, social or personal beliefs don’t matter here. We need to interpret scripture recognizing who it’s addressed to, the time it was written and the cultural, religious, social or personal beliefs that existed during the time it was written.

You can’t dismiss the fact that this was happening to very strict Jewish people who were followers of GOD’s law. We need to understand how they would have understood it and reacted. Not what we think they should. Error #1 on your part on interpreting scripture.

Let the scoundrel forsake his way, and the wicked man his thoughts; Let him turn to the LORD for mercy; to our God, who is generous in forgiving. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts. – Isaiah 55:7-9

Yes and I can cherry pick scripture as well.

Your second statement:

*“You need to better understand Jewish culture here.”

• is equally, flawed.

God, His revelation, and His dealings with us, are not preceded by “Jewish culture”.

YES indeed they are preceded by Jewish culture. In the case of scripture we are dealing with Jews whom GOD used to bring forth the HIS law. These events did not happen to gentiles so we have to understand how they fit into the laws that GOD gave to the Jews. You want to completely dismiss this and try to apply it as if it were happening today.

If a man had sexual relations with a virgin he had to marry her and could never divorce her. If a betrothed virgin became pregnant by another man then her and the man would be stoned unless it happened outside the gates of the city where the woman could not be heard screaming for help. Then only the man would be stoned.

So given this we need to see that is how Joseph viewed the circumstances he was presented with. His actions are right in line with what GOD’s law permitted. It’s not until the Angel visits him to let him know the child is from the Holy Spirit and it’s Ok to proceed with the marriage. Under GOD’s law the Holy Spirit could have been stoned for violating a betrothed virgin. Talk about funny. You don’t realize how foolish it sounds when you start making these implications. Mary was still a virgin and stayed a virgin until Jesus was born. To be the spouse of the Holy Spirit would mean the Holy Spirit had sex with Mary taking her virginity. NOT!!!