Does God "worship" Mary?

[NDfan]

God does not worship Mary. For someone to worship something, it requires an understanding that the object his higher than the worshiper. God is not able to woship anyone or anything

Mary as Bride of the Holy SPirit is not language that i like to use. It implies a physical and emotional bond that is not evident in Scriptures nor in our understanding of God.

I am Catholic, by the way

Ralph my brother how are you?? Good post and couldn’t agree more. One thing I would add in saying Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit is that it also would imply the Spirit took her virginity.

PEACE brother

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph my brother how are you?? Good post and couldn’t agree more. One thing I would add in saying Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit is that it also would imply the Spirit took her virginity.

PEACE brother

I am doing much better, thanks. Glad to be here again.

I had not considered that point, but it is a good one.

Something tells me that if you dug deep enough, the SPouse of the Holy Spirit language came about because people had an issue with the idea of Mary as unwed mother. That, and so that people would understand why Joseph did not have sex with her.

 

[NDfan]

I am doing much better, thanks. Glad to be here again.

I had not considered that point, but it is a good one.

Something tells me that if you dug deep enough, the SPouse of the Holy Spirit language came about because people had an issue with the idea of Mary as unwed mother. That, and so that people would understand why Joseph did not have sex with her.

Glad to hear it Ralph.

I think you’re right. Although I don’t remember ever learning that language in Catholic school.

 

[ralphinal]

Glad to hear it Ralph.

I think you’re right. Although I don’t remember ever learning that language in Catholic school.

I’ve heard it used and seen it before. It seems to be something that I associate with women. I do not know why.

Like I said, I am just not too comfortable with it

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Do non Catholics opposed to Marian devotion, also believe Mary is the bride of God?

The song is very personal. It sings of a woman most pure and beautiful beyond all others.

If what you are saying is true, then the soul is feminine.

Do non Catholics believe that Mary is the bride of God?

Much has been debated on this forum regarding Catholic devotion to Mary. Non Catholics vehemently opposed to Marian devotion quote scripture to “defend” the position that Mary is ordinary, is not an intercessor, and is not meritorious of the devotion discharged by her Catholic devotees.

Often, non Catholics conclude that Catholics “worship Mary”.

Considering that the Bible is the “Word of God”, I ask the following questions to this community:

Who is the Lover in Solomon’s Canticle of Canticles (Song of Songs, Song of Solomon)?

Is God “the Lover” in the book of Canticles?

If God is the Lover, who is the beloved?

If the beloved is Mary, can it be said that God “worships” her?

Since you say, she is not the bride of God, then how is it, that she bears God’s son?

Okay, forgive the multiple quotes, billy.

The reason I included all of them is because you are all over the map on what you are trying to discuss.

What does Song of Songs, God worshipping or not worshipping Mary, Mary being or not being the bride of God and Mary being the bearer of Jesus have to do with each other? I’m just trying to piece all of these ideas together to understand what you are getting at. It should be very simple.

What you’ve done so far is just ask one rhetorical question after another when asked to explain. For those unintelligent and unenlightened people such as myself, just tell me plainly what you are getting at.

 

[mercygate]

Glad to hear it Ralph.

I think you’re right. Although I don’t remember ever learning that language in Catholic school.

I recall (in my dim and foggy memory) that the first use of the term “spouse of the Holy Spirit” was by Bonaventure. 13th Century. I have no problem with that and it fits perfectly with the Early Church formulation of Mary as ever-virgin and Mother of God.

 

[ralphinal]

I recall (in my dim and foggy memory) that the first use of the term “spouse of the Holy Spirit” was by Bonaventure. 13th Century. I have no problem with that and it fits perfectly with the Early Church formulation of Mary as ever-virgin and Mother of God.

Would you agree that it is also a term that could lend itself to being taken a step to far? For example, implying a sexual relationship

 

[NDfan]

I recall (in my dim and foggy memory) that the first use of the term “spouse of the Holy Spirit” was by Bonaventure. 13th Century. I have no problem with that and it fits perfectly with the Early Church formulation of Mary as ever-virgin and Mother of God.

Mercy Mother of God was only used to defend the deity of Christ against heretics that denied it. No one actually thinks Mary is literally the mother of GOD. Spouse of the Holy Spirit is inappropriate because Mary is the spouse of Joseph.

 

[catholic_daddy]

God does not have ‘opinions’, nor is his revelation confined to the written scriptures.

A cute and convenient answer! Do you really think I meant ‘opinion’ in the sense we use it? You have to be sharper than that! You see, God has an opinion only in the sense that his is the ONLY opinion that exists!

And you’re right about revelation. There is general rev.-Nature, and there is special rev. In the person of Jesus.

 

[chris_molter]

A cute and convenient answer! Do you really think I meant ‘opinion’ in the sense we use it? You have to be sharper than that! You see, God has an opinion only in the sense that his is the ONLY opinion that exists!

You used poor terminology which could be easily misconstrued. I clarified. Sharpness, cuteness, and convenience has nothing to do with it.

 

[mercygate]

Would you agree that it is also a term that could lend itself to being taken a step to far? For example, implying a sexual relationship

The idea of Mary as “spouse of the Holy Spirit” could be taken too far only by someone with a very shallow view of the Godhead.

Granted, that includes most people. But the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary kind of knocks that idea out of the box, doesn’t it? Again: these concepts are not for the casual observer. They derive from deep meditation and thought on profound concepts. Newman observed that some of the more extravagant forms of popular piety might be appropriate in Italy but not in England.

And when you examine the history of Marian devotion over the past 700 years or so, you must admit that there have been forms of popular Marian devotion that skirt the border of superstition, if they do not actually cross it. But that is not just Marian devotion. It’s across the board.

 

[ralphinal]

The idea of Mary as “spouse of the Holy Spirit” could be taken too far only by someone with a very shallow view of the Godhead.

Granted, that includes most people. But the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary kind of knocks that idea out of the box, doesn’t it? Again: these concepts are not for the casual observer. They derive from deep meditation and thought on profound concepts. Newman observed that some of the more extravagant forms of popular piety might be appropriate in Italy but not in England.

And when you examine the history of Marian devotion over the past 700 years or so, you must admit that there have been forms of popular Marian devotion that skirt the border of superstition, if they do not actually cross it. But that is not just Marian devotion. It’s across the board.

I agree.

When a devotion does cross the line, it is generally not the only thing that the particular person or group of people crosses on. In other words, heretics are rarely only heretical in one way

 

[mercygate]

I agree.

When a devotion does cross the line, it is generally not the only thing that the particular person or group of people crosses on. In other words, heretics are rarely only heretical in one way

Regrettably, that is so. That is why communion with the Church is so important. “That they all might be one . . .” is a prayer to stick close to Christ and His Apostolic Church. As an individual, I might be well-intentioned and sincere in a belief that I understand to be completely in harmony with the faith, yet I might be absolutely off the wall. That is why “THE” faith always must be the touchstone of “MY” faith.

 

[ralphinal]

Regrettably, that is so. That is why communion with the Church is so important. “That they all might be one . . .” is a prayer to stick close to Christ and His Apostolic Church. As an individual, I might be well-intentioned and sincere in a belief that I understand to be completely in harmony with the faith, yet I might be absolutely off the wall. That is why “THE” faith always must be the touchstone of “MY” faith.

I agree 100%

 

[Peter_J]

What a strange, very strange thread. I’m really quite taken aback by the weirdness, your incessant questioning and confusing statements. Sorry, I just don’t get it.

I agree with you that some parts of this thread have been very strange.

Regarding Mary as “Spouse of the Holy Spirit” (which, btw, has never been dogmatically defined), this ought to be seen in the same vein as the statements in both the Old and New Testaments that God has a spousal-type relationship with His people (and, in the NT, more specifically that the Church is the Bride of Christ).

Why is Mary as “Spouse of the Holy Spirit” more controversial than the Church as the Bride of Christ? I guess I can see two reasons: First (obviously) that the Church as the Bride of Christ is mentioned in the Sacred Scriptures, whereas Mary as “Spouse of the Holy Spirit” developed significantly later.

Second, we are all the Bride of Christ, not just one of us. I think it’s only natural that when people hear “Mary [one specific person] is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit”, they’re going to question it more cautiously.