Does God's omniscience contradict free will?

[NowHereThis]

As an example, could God have chosen to create only those people who he fore-saw would freely choose him? That seems like something God would be interested in, unless he enjoys seeing his children end up in hell.

So the question is, could God have done what I described above without nullifying free will?

Bonus Questions: if God could have done so without nullifying free will, is it likely that he has in fact done that (and everyone secretly converts an instant before they die)? If he likely has not done that, why wouldn’t he?

 

[Aloysium]

Gen 4: 5 But he did not look with favour on Cain and his offering, and Cain was very angry and downcast. 6 Yahweh asked Cain, ‘Why are you angry and downcast? 7 If you are doing right, surely you ought to hold your head high! But if you are not doing right, Sin is crouching at the door hungry to get you. You can still master him.’ 8 Cain said to his brother Abel, ‘Let us go out’; and while they were in the open country, Cain set on his brother Abel and killed him.

I find these verses get to the heart of the matter for me.

God, who in eternity knows how it will turn out, comes down into time to warn Cain that sin is growing within and will get the better of him. He knows what will happen because He has every moment before Him. He is aware within eternity of Cain’s decision in time. Additionally, God’s infinite knowledge includes, knowing the person fully, and therefore what the person would choose under certain circumstances. These verses suggest to me that our will is completely free; Cain actually had a choice, he could have chosen to become righteous, but he did not. Unless he was given that opportunity, God would not know. Cain had to choose.

That is how I see it, and it is not a limitation to God’s omniscience, because He has all moments within His eternal vision. Also, in knowing us totally He knows that we can choose or not choose Him. We have been granted that gift: participation in the creation of our destiny.

In His omnipotence, He allows us to sin, in order that we may truly free in demonstrating our love for Him. Personally speaking a burning lake of fire is not the worst thing, it is having closed the door to God. In my mind the eternal sulfurous fire could be God’s love illuminating our sinful soul.

I am not sure why you ask, " . . . why wouldn’t He?"
This is how it is. Or have we got it wrong?
Are you suggesting God should have gone about creating heaven and hell differently?

 

[George_Stegmeir]

As an example, could God have chosen to create only those people who he fore-saw would freely choose him? That seems like something God would be interested in, unless he enjoys seeing his children end up in hell.

So the question is, could God have done what I described above without nullifying free will?

Bonus Questions: if God could have done so without nullifying free will, is it likely that he has in fact done that (and everyone secretly converts an instant before they die)? If he likely has not done that, why wouldn’t he?

I am not going to get into a prolonged, futile philosophical debate with you about free will. I will merely state that Gd, being Omnipotent as well as omniscient can do anything and everything He wishes.
Mankind enjoys free will because Gd chose to give it to us as a gift. This is written in the Book of Genesis in the story of Adam and Eve. The story about the two of them committing the first sin, the eating of the forbidden fruit is the first example of man’s use of free will.
The result of that is that humans have had to endure hunger, sickness, and pain after their expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

 

[NowHereThis]

Gen 4: 5 But he did not look with favour on Cain and his offering, and Cain was very angry and downcast. 6 Yahweh asked Cain, ‘Why are you angry and downcast? 7 If you are doing right, surely you ought to hold your head high! But if you are not doing right, Sin is crouching at the door hungry to get you. You can still master him.’ 8 Cain said to his brother Abel, ‘Let us go out’; and while they were in the open country, Cain set on his brother Abel and killed him.

I find these verses get to the heart of the matter for me.

God, who in eternity knows how it will turn out, comes down into time to warn Cain that sin is growing within and will get the better of him. He knows what will happen because He has every moment before Him. He is aware within eternity of Cain’s decision in time. Additionally, God’s infinite knowledge includes, knowing the person fully, and therefore what the person would choose under certain circumstances. These verses suggest to me that our will is completely free; Cain actually had a choice, he could have chosen to become righteous, but he did not. Unless he was given that opportunity, God would not know. Cain had to choose.

That is how I see it, and it is not a limitation to God’s omniscience, because He has all moments within His eternal vision. Also, in knowing us totally He knows that we can choose or not choose Him. We have been granted that gift: participation in the creation of our destiny.

In His omnipotence, He allows us to sin, in order that we may truly free in demonstrating our love for Him. Personally speaking a burning lake of fire is not the worst thing, it is having closed the door to God. In my mind the eternal sulfurous fire could be God’s love illuminating our sinful soul.

I am not sure why you ask, " . . . why wouldn’t He?"
This is how it is. Or have we got it wrong?
Are you suggesting God should have gone about creating heaven and hell differently?

The question is: Could God have created only those people who he fore-saw would freely choose him?

 

[MichaelHowling]

Awsome way to go about it Aloy!
Great post and wonderful idea to use Cain and Abel…from now on, I’m going to use that as well!

To piggyback on post #2… I think you need to understand what TRUE Love is…God being love and only working in love (including during creation)

And love dosen’t create to insist on holiness…Love created to share. To share His own blessed life . And ALL relationships require choice. I as a father… I know my son is going to make mistakes and EVEN has the chance of being lost! Did that stop me from acting to bring him into this world? No! It is the creative act of love( love between the trinity in regards to us and love of husband and wife in regards to my son) that brings about goodness and which will fight to defend it with the very lives of those that are a part of that creative act that will be willing to defend it (Jesus on the cross and good husband and wife in their daily lives with their child).

Could God have done as you said ? Sure, He can do anything! However, by our very first parents falling out of grace right from the get go… I would suggest to you that this was not the case.

**I think it would be better to say… That He never made a soul that He didn’t provide every opportunity to be with Him forever. **

God bless

 

[DaveBj]

The question is: Could God have created only those people who he fore-saw would freely choose him?

He probably could have, but he didn’t, and that’s the world that we have been given to live in. I won’t go so far as to say that pondering hypotheticals like the one above is counterproductive, but it certainly does not help us with the problems that we face as a result of everyone’s (including our own) exercise of free will.

 

[Vansdad]

As an example, could God have chosen to create only those people who he fore-saw would freely choose him? That seems like something God would be interested in, unless he enjoys seeing his children end up in hell.

So the question is, could God have done what I described above without nullifying free will?

Bonus Questions: if God could have done so without nullifying free will, is it likely that he has in fact done that (and everyone secretly converts an instant before they die)? If he likely has not done that, why wouldn’t he?

God knows what is in a man’s heart. That is how He would know who He wants to choose.

 

[NowHereThis]

Awsome way to go about it Aloy!
Great post and wonderful idea to use Cain and Abel…from now on, I’m going to use that as well!

To piggyback on post #2… I think you need to understand what TRUE Love is…God being love and only working in love (including during creation)

And love dosen’t create to insist on holiness…Love created to share. To share His own blessed life . And ALL relationships require choice. I as a father… I know my son is going to make mistakes and EVEN has the chance of being lost! Did that stop me from acting to bring him into this world? No! It is the creative act of love( love between the trinity in regards to us and love of husband and wife in regards to my son) that brings about goodness and which will fight to defend it with the very lives of those that are a part of that creative act that will be willing to defend it (Jesus on the cross and good husband and wife in their daily lives with their child).

Could God have done as you said ? Sure, He can do anything! However, by our very first parents falling out of grace right from the get go… I would suggest to you that this was not the case.

**I think it would be better to say… That He never made a soul that He didn’t provide every opportunity to be with Him forever. **

God bless

So would you say then that God, out of his unconquerable love, would rather his child end up in hell than go uncreated?

 

[MichaelHowling]

No, I would say that God, through His unconqorable love would rather bring us out of nothingness and offer every and all possibility (all we need do is accept) than to not let us meet/be with Him.

Like a previous poster said… there’s only one thing worse than hell…NEVER having the chance to know God.

Using your logic, all good works and bringing children into this world should stop right now. Because children can be lossed, life has many pains and sufferings, and all good works can be undone or scandalized.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

So would you say then that God, out of his unconquerable love, would rather his child end up in hell than go uncreated?

To exist is better than to not exist, otherwise annihilation would beat out hell. Course, the people there don’t see it that way, but people who end up in Hell kind of obviously aren’t the most reliable guides to good and bad.

But of course God has no desire that we end up in Hell. He simply does not, it seems, wish to play the games of “you have free will, but not really because I’ll only make you if you’ll do as I like.”

 

[NowHereThis]

No, I would say that God, through His unconqorable love would rather bring us out of nothingness and offer every and all possibility (all we need do is accept) than to not let us meet/be with Him.

Like a previous poster said… there’s only one thing worse than hell…NEVER having the chance to know God.

Using your logic, all good works and bringing children into this world should stop right now. Because children can be lossed, life has many pains and sufferings, and all good works can be undone or scandalized.

When you use words like “chance” and “possibility” you make it sound like there’s some kind of mystery here. Like God is waiting with baited breath to find out how his children will choose. Is that the case? Does God not know the results of free will choices before they are made?

 

[MichaelHowling]

i didnt use those words.

but no , god knows all.

your trying to make sense of two different natures and how they pass through time. our nature knows time while god nature…all things and his will is present

 

[NowHereThis]

i didnt use those words.

but no , god knows all.

your trying to make sense of two different natures and how they pass through time. our nature knows time while god nature…all things and his will is present

So God knows, for sure, before he creates, that the child he’s going to create will end up in hell. No chance, no possibility of any other outcome (for that would make God wrong). Would you agree with that?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

So God knows, for sure, before he creates, that the child he’s going to create will end up in hell. No chance, no possibility of any other outcome (for that would make God wrong). Would you agree with that?

I imagine that the point you are trying to raise here will have two issues:

1. “before” is a weird word to apply to God.
2. Yes, He will know, and His knowledge will be certain, but what He knows will be dependent on the choices that the child will make even though the child hasn’t made them yet.

Time does not apply to God. Except for when He wants it to.

 

[MichaelHowling]

No. I dont even agree with that. Love gives!

And again, I think you are tied up in trying to grasp the divine nature… I don’t think we ever fully can.

 

[MichaelHowling]

See what Iron’s idea of how God sees time?

His idea works…but it’s very complicated for we humans to understand it.

It’s like we live in a 3 dimentional world as humans…God lives in a infinate dimention…we can’t fully grasp that!

And that’s ok!

 

[NowHereThis]

I imagine that the point you are trying to raise here will have two issues:

1. “before” is a weird word to apply to God.
2. Yes, He will know, and His knowledge will be certain, but what He knows will be dependent on the choices that the child will make even though the child hasn’t made them yet.

Time does not apply to God. Except for when He wants it to.

So perhaps you would agree that from an “eternal now” standpoint, God knows everything, but from a linear, time-bound perspective, God doesn’t know the results of free will choices until they happen?

 

[snarflemike]

I believe God could have created only humans who would choose him, without nullifying their free will. But then he would have had to either tell those humans the situation (what happens to free will then?), or withhold a vital piece of information (deception)?

What does the conversation between God and humanity look like in the case you propose?

 

[NowHereThis]

I believe God could have created only humans who would choose him, without nullifying their free will. But then he would have had to either tell those humans the situation (what happens to free will then?), or withhold a vital piece of information (deception)?

What does the conversation between God and humanity look like in the case you propose?

I don’t understand why this would require telling or not telling anyone anything. Could you elaborate on why either is necessary? I think there’s an unstated assumption involved somewhere.

 

[snarflemike]

I don’t understand why this would require telling or not telling anyone anything. Could you elaborate on why either is necessary? I think there’s an unstated assumption involved somewhere.

As I asked, what does the conversation between God and humanity look like in the case you propose? Does God reveal himself at all (else how would people choose him)? What does he reveal? I sense a huge can of worms.