Does Hebrews refute the Mass?

[Danno2281]

I’ve found that it depends on the translation. Here is another example:

1 John 2:6
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. This is not a suggestion, it is a command. We must imitate Christ in obedience to His Father. (1 Corinthians 11:1, John 5:30)

Abide means “to remain.” We must remain in Him (in Christ) until death in order to inherit eternal life.

To be “in Christ” means to obey His commandments and also to do His Father’s Will.

Ephesians 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

We abide in Christ and He abides in us as long as we continue to be faithful (we must do His Father’s will and obey His commandments).

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

**If **we break His commandments and commit mortal/serious/deadly sins after we are baptized, then we disqualify ourselves (lose our inheritance) because we’ve sinned against His commandments and so we will no longer be saved unless we confess and repent before death. After we confess and repent of these deadly sins (which cause the death of sanctifying grace in the soul), then we are once again saved (receive sanctifying grace). When the Holy Spirit resides in our souls, then we have sanctifying/saving grace. If the Holy Spirit leaves our souls/temples because of our sins, then we will be damned. He will destroy us.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

There is no such thing as OSAS in Christianity. Salvation is a life-long process, not a one-time event. We must imitate Christ until death.

Ephesians 5:1-6
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

When we are baptized, we become children of God, His own adopted sons and daughters. But, if we sin mortal/deadly sins (some are mentioned above) and do not confess and repent before death, then we lose our inheritance (we become sons and daughters of disobedience when we fail to keep His commandments) and we are condemned to hell for eternity.

Please note that I said that it is used in only one other place in the gospel.

 

[SHW]

Please note that I said that it is used in only one other place in the gospel.

Perhaps you meant that the Gospel of John was the only “gospel” that you found the word “abide.” I found “abide” used several times in the Gospel of John. It is also used several times in the epistles (1 John, 2 John, 1 Peter, and 1 Corinthians), but I did not find it used in any of the other three Gospels in the NKJV.

Here a few more in the Gospel of John:

John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

John 15:4-5
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

 

[jlhargus]

I cannot find any reason to reconcile the argument found in the epistle to the Hebrews with the Doctrine of the Mass in Catholic theology. The reasons are as follows:

*10:1 “For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.”
*
The author asserts that the Temple sacrifices offered yearly cannot make the worshipers (i.e. those who draw near) perfect. Catholics would agree with this. If we go on:

10:2 “Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins.”

The author claims that if these said sacrifices could make the people perfect, then they would’ve ceased to have been offered long ago, since having once been cleansed, they would no longer have any conscience (i.e. guilt) of sin.

If the Mass is the propitiatory sacrifice of the Lord, why hasn’t it perfected once and for all, those for whom it has been offered? After all, would it not have ceased to have been offered, since the people, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

JL: The mass is the wedding supper of the Lamb. What did Christ finish on the cross, Paul says, If Christ be not raised your faith is vain you are yet in your sins. 1Cor 15:17 Christ our High Priest had to enter the Holy of Holies with his blood, to make atonement, just as the OT High Priest entered the earthly Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrifice, to make atonement. Christ entered once into the true tabernacle not made by hands, were he ever lives, the Lamb of God once slain, who takes away the sins of the world as our one mediator, interceding for us bringing to remembrance that PURE OFFERING, this IS my body, this IS my blood, the sacrifice of the cross, showing HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD before the Father and MAKING PRESENT to his people, the Church, his once for all sacrifice on the cross. The bread of life and the blood of the Lamb.

[Ex 25:30 And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always] The bread of the Presence is placed on a table before the Presence of God above the Ark of the Old Covenant in the Holy of Holies. The Temple bread of the Presence is a type and foreshadowing, of Christ and his real Presence, as the bread of life, the Lamb of God, who will stand in the midst of the throne bringing to remembrance the sacrifice of the cross, before the Father.

[Rv 5:6 …in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating, [1Jn2:1 MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And IF ANY MAN SIN, we have AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.],

Christ is our propitiation for sins before and after baptism, bringing to remembrance and making present his once for all sacrifice of great mercy. Our PURE OFFERING, Jesus Christ, our living High Priest making intercession for us. That same once for all sacrifice of the cross. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same once done MADE PRESENT to us a living memorial sacrifice. [Malachi 1:11 For FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN even UNTO the GOING DOWN of the same my name shall be great among THE GENTILES; and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be OFFERED unto my name, AND A PURE OFFERING: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

[That PURE OFFERING=sacrifice, this IS my body, this IS my blood, is our Eucharistic Lord, Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifces had to be clean, but they could never be pure, only Christ our sacrifice is PURE.]

[Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne … stood a Lamb as it had been slain… Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hb 7:24 … this man…continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. … Hb 8…We have such an high priest… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore **IT IS OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMEWHAT ALSO TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 … serve to the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS… … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry… MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT … Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT into HEAVEN itself, NOW TO APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US:]

Christ is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father, bringing to remembrance to the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross, which we eat at Mass, just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. JN 6:55 My flesh IS meat indeed, my blood IS drink indeed.

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

Malacahi 1:11 …from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING] The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also.

The fruit, of the the Tree of Life=Cross, our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass. [Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE 1Jn 2:2 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [Hb9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but THE HEAVENLY THINGS themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:] BETTER SACRIFICES, plural, because that once for all sacrifice of Christ is made sacramentally present to us each time mass is offered. This IS my body, this IS my blood, with these words the living memorial sacrifice is accomplished by the sacaramental separation of body and blood showing forth Christ death.

Hb7:25 Wherefore HE IS ABLE also TO SAVE THEM to the uttermost THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM, seeing HE EVER LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM. Hb12:22 but YE ARE COME UNTO MOUNT SION, and unto THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and TO GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and TO THE BLOOD OF SPRINKLING, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[Hunho]

Wright is only one of the best recognized biblical scholars on the planet…

I’m going to quote the NIV, which is also used by Alan C. Mitchell and Daniel J. Harrington (Catholic scholars) in their commentary on Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:2 “If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.”

It is claimed that the Jews were not cleansed once for all, but Christ’s sacrifice cleanses once for all.

Now, without resorting to Scott Hahn’s CD or claiming that I’m quoting Hebrews out of context (ridiculous assertion, given that you haven’t exegetically dealt with the text in any fashion), give me a reason to believe why I can be Catholic and be cleansed once for all.

Sorry. As a Catholic I can’t. If by “cleansed once and for all” you mean the idea of an individual’s gaining eternal security - “once saved, always saved” - then you are asking for something that Catholic doctrine rejects. The passage you p(name removed by moderator)oint - Hebrews 10:1-2 - is about Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross compared to the levitical sacrifices of animals. In that context the point of the passage from Hebrews (actually all of Hebrews 10:1-18) is that the levitical sacrifices were not suffcient to take away sin; only Jesus’s sacrifice was sufficient to take away sin. The role of the Mass is, however, about conveying that “taking away of sin” [aka the merits of Calvary] to the you and me, to the individual believer. To quote Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary in the definition of the Mass, “the Mass is the divinely ordained means of applying the merits of Calvary. Christ won for the world all the graces it needs for salvation and sanctification. But these blessings are conferred gradually and continually [and individually] since Calvary and mainly through the Mass. Their measure of conferral is in proportion to the faith and loving response of the faithful who unite themselves in spirit with the Mass. . . . * the people’s ‘full, active and conscious participation will involve them in both body and soul and will inspire them with faith, hope and charity.’ The more active this participation, the more glory is given to God and the more grace is bestowed not only on the Church but on all the members of the human race.”
As for N.T. Wright being “one of the best recognized biblical scholars on the planet,” so is Scott Hahn.