Does Hell exist in its conventional form?

[AScottishSpirit]

I was just looking through posts on another website, and I came across one that read, “Is the Devil real?” and it reminded me of a question I had. I wanted to ask you, why do you believe in Hell and do you have any evidence that can support the claim? I believe there were angels who betrayed God. But then who is Satan? Did God create Satan, or has Satan always existed? Is he an angel who betrayed God? And what is the purpose of Hell? We have an all loving, and all forgiving Creator, and yet He would give up on us after death? If God is all powerful (and I believe He is) then how could it not be in His power to save us from the fires of Hell? Or, to put it in better terms, eternal damnation? And if it is in His power to save us and give us opportunity to change for whatever better is needed, then why would He not do so? It is perfectly within His power, being that He is all powerful (at least in my perception) to reincarnate us. And once more I ask, why would He give us only one life if one life is not enough to bring us to Him, in whatever form He may be in? I believe in reincarnation, and believe that it is our soul’s journey to find Christ. I don’t believe anyone can be condemned to an eternity with Satan, unless one fully understands God and then denounces Him, and I don’t think it is in our human comprehension to truly understand God. How can we renounce what we do not fully know? Isn’t that an impossibility?

These are just a few of my musings, and questions, and if anybody has any thoughts, I would love to hear from you. I promise to be open minded and not to condemn you to rude behavior if you disagree. Thanks for your time in this. And remember, my views aren’t set in concrete, I’m still hoping to find my calling to a faith.

Love from,
~*Sheena

 

[Magicsilence]

We are all given anough grace to find Christ in our lives, it is only our pride/vanity etc… and sins that stop us from doing so.

When you sin you are choosing to offend God, so he understands and lets you choose an eternity without Him.

Hell is totally a choice, if you dont want to go there, dont sin! and do His Will.

 

[puzzleannie]

having trouble with my mouse so I can’t bring the links over but return to CA home page and click on Last Things on the articles at the left of the screen. First article “The Hell there Is” answers your question.

 

[Eireann]

AScottishSpirit:

I was just looking through posts on another website, and I came across one that read, “Is the Devil real?” and it reminded me of a question I had. I wanted to ask you, why do you believe in Hell and do you have any evidence that can support the claim?

Hell-----> olrl.org/doctrine/came_back.shtml​

Sister Josepha Mendenez newjerusalem.com/josefa.htm please pray for her Canonization !​

Some public maisfestations of the Evil one.

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0137.html

olrl.org/stories/exorcism.shtml

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello AScottishSpirit,

Do you agree that it is really Jesus not Moses who spells out eternal punishment, fires of Gehenna, damnation and burning in the fire prepared for Satan and his angels? WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All If one does not believe Jesus on eternal damnation then how can one believe Jesus on the promise of eternal life.

One cannot love without the option to choose not to love. By giving man free will man has the tremendous opportunity to love God. The only thing in existance worth allowing hatred, sin and damnation for is LOVE! Choices Of The Heart

INT 1JO 5:3
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.INT JOH 14:15

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

**NAB JOH 15:22 **

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.” NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[Eileen_T]

When my children were younger I was questioned about Hell etc and I told them that no-one goes to Hell by accident. Anyone who is there, somehow and at some time made a deliberate choice against God - and never repented of that.

God desires that each and every one of us chooses him…freely. We are not slaves or puppets. God gave us free will and the only thing of real value that we can give back to God is to surrender our will to Him. That is LOVE.

I don’t believe anyone can be condemned to an eternity with Satan, unless one fully understands God and then denounces Him, and I don’t think it is in our human comprehension to truly understand God.

All we need to understand about God is contained in Scripture. Jesus, being God made man, taught us everything we need to know about God.

HE is our Father and wants us to love Him with a child’s love - that is, trustingly and unconditionally. Have you watched a young child with a father who loves him (or her)? I don’t mean the scumbag dads who are neglectful of their children, but the ones who love their kids and spend time with them.

I see they way they look at their Daddy, adoringly even. That is how we are to view God…as little children. When our elderly priest talks about God, that is what he is like, and when he talks about Jesus it is awesome. He is so totally in love with God that it makes me ache for that kind of relationship with God.

LOVE is the key. Love God and love others as yourself. This world has got so messed up that we forget that from time to time. If you don’t have that kind of love I suggest you ask God every day to help you find it. Pray for it every day.

:yup:

 

[nucatholic]

I have had similar questions about hell. I do not believe it is eternal however. If we believe God is just, as He certainly is, how can he punish someone for eternity when the affects of their sin are only realized in a finite setting? Most people really aren’t THAT evil. Do normal people who don’t believe in God really deserve eternal punishment? I don’t think so. I personally think that the people who deserve hell and end up there, spend only the amount of time that satisfies justice and then their souls cease to exist. This isn’t exactly all my own idea but I put my own little twist on it, and it seems to be within the limits of the teaching of the Church.

 

[wcknight]

Everytime I hear that eternal punishment could not possible be as it is, I tend to agree. BUT then a day or two later, I hear about some atrocity that screams for the harshest of punishments imaginable.

There are some truly evil folks in the world. To say that they are really unredeemable, I wouldn’t know. The Hitlers, Pol Pots, and Stalins of the world caused enormous suffering for millions of folks. How many lifetimes of torment are sufficient to balance their scales ?

IF they roast for 100 million years would that make up for all the pain and misery that they caused others, not to mention the thousands of folks who they influenced and caused to fall along side of them.

Maybe there are different degrees of hell as Dante suggests. God is not going to force anyone into Heaven who does not want to be there, and there probably are a lot of folks who hate God, but are not as evil as some others.

The Madeline O’Haras who hate God but are not as evil as a mass murdering dictator probably have their own special version of Hell…

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

nucatholic:

I have had similar questions about hell. I do not believe it is eternal however. If we believe God is just, as He certainly is, how can he punish someone for eternity when the affects of their sin are only realized in a finite setting? Most people really aren’t THAT evil. Do normal people who don’t believe in God really deserve eternal punishment? I don’t think so. I personally think that the people who deserve hell and end up there, spend only the amount of time that satisfies justice and then their souls cease to exist. This isn’t exactly all my own idea but I put my own little twist on it, and it seems to be within the limits of the teaching of the Church.

Nucatholic, you bring up an interesting thing–the nature of eternity. There are some things we must reconcile (or at least hold in creative tension) when we speak of “eternal” punishment:

1–Only God is truly Eternal. Nothing can be eternal as God is eternal.

2–Hell cannot therefore be eternal as God is eternal.

3–Eternity is the end and fulfillment of Time. Time finds its completion in Eternity, or, in the words of Meister Eckhart, in the Eternal Present of God.

4–If Hell is subject to Time, then Hell will have an end with the end of Time when the fulfillment of all things occurs–is it possible for God to be All in All if some things are not subject to the promised fulfillment?

5–Does “eternal” when applied to hell describe duration?

6–Is it possible that the harrowing of hell altered forever the nature of hell?

I would like to posit, then (when speaking of duration), instead of “eternal” punishment, “indefinite” punishment. Does it have an end? Perhaps. When will end? Who knows?

I would like to suggest that the word “eternal” be retained as describing a quality of suffering. The suffering of the damned is eternal not in time, but in quality. They are lost in an abyss of torment. Will their suffering end? Perhaps, and God in His Mercy willing, I hope it does. Do the damned have any hope of an end? Probably not–and this contributes to their pain. Does that mean there is not hope for them? No–it just means that they are not conscious of it.

As others have written, the damned are damned by choice. God does not wish anyone to be separated from Him. The fire of God’s love is experienced by them as pain because they have chosen to separate themselves from this love which is at the heart of their very being. Their pain is indefinite self-destruction, trying to remove from themselves all that is God, trying to destroy their very beings. However, I truly believe that if it is possible (and God willing it is possible) for one of the damned to freely submit to the justice of God, he or she would instantly find his/or her torment purgatorial rather than infernal, having percieved in this submission that the heart of justice is mercy–and having perceived this mercy, he/she will be given hope. And this mercy and this hope are gifts of grace. And through these graces which come from no other source than the fiery love of Jesus, this once-damned soul would find itself in unending bliss.

Just a few thoughts.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[Consecrated]

Does Hell exist?
Catechism of the Catholic Church

#1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna,” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost (see Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; 13:42, 50; Mark 9:43-48). Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather …all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” (see Matthew 13:41-42) and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!” (Matthew 25:41)

Is it eternal?
Catechism of the Catholic Church

** #1035** The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

If God is all-powerful, all-merciful and all loving, why doesn’t he keep people from going to Hell?
Catechism of the Catholic Church

# 1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor, or against ourselves. “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” (John 3:14-15) Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren (see Matthew 25:31-46). To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

#1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

(my emphasis)
** What about “reincarnation”?**
See CCC #1035 above, esp. the part that says “immediately after death…”

How can we renounce that which we cannot fully know?
First of all, Our Lord instituted the Church with the sacraments to help us know the God as fully as possible in our earthly life. That is why we are required as Catholics to give our assent of faith to all doctrines of the Church, and then seek understanding. Second, we do not need to fully understand in order to have faith and make it to heaven (where we will spend eternity getting to know Him), and in the same light, we can renounce God with the full knowledge that we ARE renouncing him, but we do not need to completely KNOW God (which we can never do in this life, at least). Faith is a virtue, and one that God gives us because he is all-good. We do not earn or attain it on our own, and we can very easily reject it. Our duty is to pray for it, and then be as open to it as possible by not clouding our soul with sin.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**#1859 ** Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, or it’s opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart (see Mark 3:5-6, Luke 16:19-31) do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

#1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man…

(my emphasis)
If you wish to profess faith in the Catholic Church, I highly suggest obtaining a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as it states clearly all the doctrines of the Church, which one must accept with faith to truly consider oneself in communion with the Church. Understanding can come second, and usually does for the vast majority of us! I’m a cradle Catholic and I’m constantly seeking to understand that which I already profess more clearly. Thank you for this opportunity to study up on the Church’s doctrines regarding Hell and sin!

Sorry for the extra-long post!

 

[Consecrated]

Deo Volente:

Grace & Peace!

Nucatholic, you bring up an interesting thing–the nature of eternity. There are some things we must reconcile (or at least hold in creative tension) when we speak of “eternal” punishment:

1–Only God is truly Eternal. Nothing can be eternal as God is eternal.

2–Hell cannot therefore be eternal as God is eternal.

3–Eternity is the end and fulfillment of Time. Time finds its completion in Eternity, or, in the words of Meister Eckhart, in the Eternal Present of God.

4–If Hell is subject to Time, then Hell will have an end with the end of Time when the fulfillment of all things occurs–is it possible for God to be All in All if some things are not subject to the promised fulfillment?

5–Does “eternal” when applied to hell describe duration?

6–Is it possible that the harrowing of hell altered forever the nature of hell?

I would like to posit, then (when speaking of duration), instead of “eternal” punishment, “indefinite” punishment. Does it have an end? Perhaps. When will end? Who knows?

I would like to suggest that the word “eternal” be retained as describing a quality of suffering. The suffering of the damned is eternal not in time, but in quality. They are lost in an abyss of torment. Will their suffering end? Perhaps, and God in His Mercy willing, I hope it does. Do the damned have any hope of an end? Probably not–and this contributes to their pain. Does that mean there is not hope for them? No–it just means that they are not conscious of it.

As others have written, the damned are damned by choice. God does not wish anyone to be separated from Him. The fire of God’s love is experienced by them as pain because they have chosen to separate themselves from this love which is at the heart of their very being. Their pain is indefinite self-destruction, trying to remove from themselves all that is God, trying to destroy their very beings. However, I truly believe that if it is possible (and God willing it is possible) for one of the damned to freely submit to the justice of God, he or she would instantly find his/or her torment purgatorial rather than infernal, having percieved in this submission that the heart of justice is mercy–and having perceived this mercy, he/she will be given hope. And this mercy and this hope are gifts of grace. And through these graces which come from no other source than the fiery love of Jesus, this once-damned soul would find itself in unending bliss.

Just a few thoughts.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

In my post right after yours, I quoted from the Catechism, which uses the word “eternal” because Jesus himself used the word in the Gospels. Hell did have a beginning, unlike God, but it does not have an end. In that sense it is eternal.

To go there “eternally” means your existence there will have no end, as your soul has no end. I believe I am reading the text correctly when I see it as saying “You have already rejected God, and once your soul leaves your body, you do not get another chance to accept him.”

This is the infallible, dogmatic teaching of the Church. It’s all right there in the Catechism.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Consecrated, I hope you don’t think, from my previous post, that I’m attempting to say something other than what the Catechism teaches. Far from it! My main issue, from which my admitted speculations flow, is with the understanding of “eternity” or “eternal”. Hell is eternal, granted, but in what way? Not in the way God is eternal, surely. Then in what way? This is the question I try to raise.

Thank you for the quotations from the catechism!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[Jayson]

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them. In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fatima:
"She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear."

 

[Eireann]

nucatholic:

I have had similar questions about hell. I do not believe it is eternal however. If we believe God is just, as He certainly is, how can he punish someone for eternity when the affects of their sin are only realized in a finite setting? Most people really aren’t THAT evil. Do normal people who don’t believe in God really deserve eternal punishment? I don’t think so. I personally think that the people who deserve hell and end up there, spend only the amount of time that satisfies justice and then their souls cease to exist. This isn’t exactly all my own idea but I put my own little twist on it, and it seems to be within the limits of the teaching of the Church.

That don’t square up with the words “out of hell there is no redemption”.

 

[Jayson]

Do not forget about Divine mercy. We can’t know who goes to Hell exactly. We do know, however, that those who are in Hell have chosen it. That is the thing about God, he is indeed just. He lets you choose either way, however he is also good and provides each of us with the graces we need to be able to choose him. He knows each of us better than we know ourselves, and as such we can hope that most people will indeed go to heaven. Remember that a huge price has been paid for every soul, and every soul that is lost to hell is a huge loss for God.

I personally think that the people who deserve hell and end up there, spend only the amount of time that satisfies justice and then their souls cease to exist. This isn’t exactly all my own idea but I put my own little twist on it, and it seems to be within the limits of the teaching of the Church.

Your idea of hell sounds a lot like purgatory

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Consecrated:

In my post right after yours, I quoted from the Catechism, which uses the word “eternal” because Jesus himself used the word in the Gospels. Hell did have a beginning, unlike God, but it does not have an end. In that sense it is eternal.

To go there “eternally” means your existence there will have no end, as your soul has no end. I believe I am reading the text correctly when I see it as saying “You have already rejected God, and once your soul leaves your body, you do not get another chance to accept him.”

This is the infallible, dogmatic teaching of the Church. It’s all right there in the Catechism.

Hi Consecrated. You bring a good issue–“hell did have a beginning, unlike God, but it does not have an end. In that sense it is eternal.”

I beg to differ. Things without an end are indefinite, not eternal. If a choose to step out of my house by dividing the distance between me and my door in half every time I take a leap or a step, I will come closer to the door, but I will never get out. I can keep infinitesimally dividing the distance between me and the door in half. The process is endless, it is indefinite. It is not eternal, however. I can choose to step over the threshold any time, but that I choose instead to remain trapped in my futile divisions of the space between me and the door does not make my state eternal, it makes it indefinite.

I believe it was Roman Catholic theologian Jean Borella who used this example to illustrate the fall of man who has trapped himself, in his finiteness, into the indefiniteness of material sin. Through the crucifixion and resurrection, Christ as put an end to our indefinite fall–he has shown us a way out of ourselves, out of the inversion of our nature.

Eternity is Time-less-ness. No Time. To speak of being forever in hell, therefore, admits an aspect of time into our understanding of hell. The question is, then: is hell eternal / timeless or is it not? Is it bound by time, or is it not? If it is bound by time, what becomes of it when time itself finds its fulfillment in eternity?

If we take the catechism as our guide, we are led to believe that hell is eternal (timeless). From this, we can be led to consider that duration of stay in hell has nothing to do with the eternity of the suffering in hell because notions of duration and notions of eternity are diametrically opposed to each other–duration can only be understood here as metaphorical and not actual.

I have not known the catechism to mince words. It is very precise in its language. I believe the reason for this precision is: the catechism is meant to be interpreted and sounded out in concert with the sacramental life of the church and the development of the indivdual soul. The catechism is proposing articles of belief–but it does not fully explicate all of its terms. And it does this in order to entice us into a fuller engagement with doctrine. I reference here our Lord’s parable of the talents. We are entrusted with a great treasure in Catholic tradition. To accept a doctrinal proposition without engaging it is to refuse to allow it to grow in us. It is my contention that the word “eternal” here in the catechism is an invitation to growth.

That doesn’t mean, though, that I’m right! Like you, I’m just trying to understand!

Under the Mercy!
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[frogman80]

Catholic definition of “Eternity”:
newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm

Also, this is sort of related to this topic of “Eternity” that came up on “Catholic Answers Live” a few weeks ago:

catholic.com/radio.asp

-Go to “Past Shows” (mp3 or real formats available)
-Download show from Oct 11th 2005
-Fast forward to about the 37 minute mark…

 

[Consecrated]

Deo Volente:

Grace & Peace!

Consecrated, I hope you don’t think, from my previous post, that I’m attempting to say something other than what the Catechism teaches. Far from it! My main issue, from which my admitted speculations flow, is with the understanding of “eternity” or “eternal”. Hell is eternal, granted, but in what way? Not in the way God is eternal, surely. Then in what way? This is the question I try to raise.

Thank you for the quotations from the catechism!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

Thank you very much for clearing that up, Mark! I suspected as much, but for the benefit of the OP and others who seem to be very confused about actual Church teaching on the subject, I just wanted to the make the line between speculation and Doctrine really clear.

As for your musings on eternal, I think you make a valid point in differentiating the “eternalness” of God and the “eternalness” of Hell and really all unending things that are not God (our souls, the angels,…) One way you can look at it is that God has no beginning AND no ending, He is Infinite. Whereas all things he created to have no ending, by definition had a beginning: eternal (timeless) but NOT infinite. They exist outside of time.

I think I understand what you’re saying about notions of “duration” and “eternity” being diametrically opposed. So that’s why it’s either one or the other: either the damned soul (which is immortal, eternal, without end) will spend eternity there, or it will spend a duration there. We know, b/c of Jesus’ and the catechism’s use of the word eternal (timeless), that the soul will NOT spend a duration there, but is there out of time. Eternally, but not infinitely, b/c there was one a point at which said soul was NOT there. :whacky: That’s how I feel when trying to think “outside of time”!

BTW, Heaven is “eternal”, too right? And isn’t it Church teaching that at the end of the world, and of time, all souls will either be in Heaven or Hell (as in the separation of the wheat from the chaff, the goats from the sheep)? So that means that Hell will not end with time, but, like Heaven, will continue eternally (outside of time).

Am I getting what you’re saying at all? I have a feeling I’m in over my head.

 

[Consecrated]

frogman80:

Catholic definition of “Eternity”:
newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm

Also, this is sort of related to this topic of “Eternity” that came up on “Catholic Answers Live” a few weeks ago:

catholic.com/radio.asp

-Go to “Past Shows” (mp3 or real formats available)
-Download show from Oct 11th 2005
-Fast forward to about the 37 minute mark…

Thank you Frogman!

(I like your alias! )

 

[Consecrated]

Note especially this part of Frogman’s link:
(newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm)
Catholic Encyclopedia

…we are wont to think and say that with death, and especially with the Last Judgment, time shall cease. The meaning is not that there will be no more succession of any kind; but that there will be not substantial change or corruption in what survives death, the soul; or in the body that shall have been raised from the dead; or in the heavens and earth as they shall be renewed after Christ’s second coming. There is, moreover, an implication or connotation of the doctrine that in the future life of souls, whether in heaven or in hell, succession will be accidental, the act in which their essential happiness or misery will consist being continuous and unbroken vision and love, or blinded wrong vision and hatred, of God. This kind of duration is in our ordinary language spoken of as life or death eternal, by a kind of participation, in a wide or improper sense, in the character of the Divine eternity (Billot, op. cit., 119).

And this link from Catholic Encyclopedia on Hell specifically:
newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm