Does Hell have a revolving door?

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Where is the Devil and where are the demons? If they are in hell, how do they get out to create chaos in our lives? If they are in hell, how do they tempt us? If they get out to tempt us, then hell has a revolving door. If I go to hell, do I get out also? What is the orthodox teaching on this? Jimmy, Tim, Patrick, Fr. Vincent, Sr. Rosalind, citizens of the planet Zorkon, what is the teaching?
 
AFAIK

There is Hell the location, and Hell the state of being.

Some devils can get in and out of the former until the Last Judgement. Released for various reasons, to tempt, to execute justice, according to some kind of divine economy, the mysterious Will of God. Reimprisoned again by God again, due to exorcists, prayers, mercy, etc.

They always persist in the state of being eternally damned and tormented by this however. They do prefer to be out of the location, while tormented, it is less tormenting and then they can distract themselves from their torments by tormenting people.

The damned souls of men are eternally damned as well, dogma.

Damned souls never get out of the location as well as the state of being, except for a brief appearance in the Last Judgement.
 
Shin: Distraction is a minimal amount of pleasure. Does this meant that there is joy in hell? How can there be anything positive or desirable in hell?
 
Shin: Distraction is a minimal amount of pleasure. Does this meant that there is joy in hell? How can there be anything positive or desirable in hell?
Hmmm… I am not sure I agree that it is a pleasure, but you may be right that I am wrong to put it that way. Certainly there is no relief in Hell. But at the same time I would think levels of pain should vary, though all intolerable.

The main motivation is after all, pure hate, perhaps it is only that, rather than some sort of escape, or if it also is that, it is never achieved.

At least I recall that the more souls they condemn to Hell through their temptations the greater their own pains.

I’ll have to look into it a little further.

There’re some sermons on Hell on ‘Sensus Traditionis’ and ‘Audio Sancto’ below, and some spiritual warfare and other sermons generally on both sites, that probably somewhere in them contain the answer as to the limitations of the interior states and motivations of those condemned forever down below.

I would not recommend them for the weak of faith who might question Faith because of how terrible Hell is however, realizing a true faith comes first where all revealed is accepted not negotiated, and why that is so – or to those easily scared. 🙂

I pray with hope for us not to go there!

Prayer Before Starting on a Journey

My holy Angel Guardian, ask the Lord to bless the journey which I undertake, that it may profit the health of my soul and body; that I may reach its end, and that, returning safe and sound, I may find my family in good health. Do thou guard, guide and preserve us.
 
Shin: I still need to know, “Does hell have a revolving door?” I they are in hell how can they be here? If hell is a state, why persecute us unless it gives them pleasure? If it gives them pain and more misery, why do it? In regards to the remainder of your letter, I still need to read those sermons.
 
Shin: I still need to know, “Does hell have a revolving door?” I they are in hell how can they be here? If hell is a state, why persecute us unless it gives them pleasure? If it gives them pain and more misery, why do it? In regards to the remainder of your letter, I still need to read those sermons.
Well, as I said, -both- a state and a -place-, that much is certainly reliable.

It is a state because its essential characteristic is denial of the beatific vision, and punishment for all one’s sins.

It is a place because there is an actual location for it, both now, and in the time to come after the Last Judgement.

That place tends to be identified with the depths of the earth.

Unfortunately I don’t have the clearest idea of the interior motivations of the demons, I never actually tried to work it all out. Malice certainly, hate. Fear. But what more? Not certain.

They will at times I know try to tempt people to empathize them. That is dangerous, since it is impossible for them to have a good motivation.

Demons would also only have an interior life pertaining to the spiritual side, they would not have what we have of the bodily side of the mental life. And I’d have to break open my ‘Introduction to the Science of Mental Health’ and think hard and long to figure quite precisely how that all differs too and relates, if I could.

Makes for an essential topic for meditation, figuring out how the interior life works in general, but can take a long time. At least for me. And I do constantly try.

And the interior lives of angels appear to me to be in some ways simpler and in some ways more mysterious than that of men. Simpler, in that the bodily side and all that relates to it is out, but more complex as that each angel besides being pure spirit is quite a different spirit, incredibly so. How much do those differences matter in determining the possibilities interiorly? I do not know.

I believe Fr. Ripperger, the priest who gives the sermons on Sensus Traditionis, once said that angels comprehend something all at once, they do not even have deductive thinking. When they see something they know all it is possible for them to know about it, immediately. Try imagining that.

Now I want to go read up on more than just your question. There is so much to study… So much. It’s wonderful really. Just trying to find out more deeply the differences in the nine choirs reliably (one relies on the saints for this mainly) is a task, but a worthwhile one. 🙂
 
Shin: I still need to know, “Does hell have a revolving door?” I they are in hell how can they be here? If hell is a state, why persecute us unless it gives them pleasure? If it gives them pain and more misery, why do it? In regards to the remainder of your letter, I still need to read those sermons.
I’ve sometimes wondered the same thing myself. I used to see a literally demonic look in my father’s face. The night he died he appeared in my room. He started with an apology for wrecking my life (his words), we argued and conversed, and at the end he disappeared with an almightly scream of terror. I can’t reproduce it here obviously, but he was shaking with every fibre of his being. This was a man who fought at Milne Bay in World War II, so he had some courage.

However when I saw these demonic looks, there were two features in particular that stood out. The first was a feeling of sheer evil, but perhaps even stronger than the evil was hatred, pure and simple. After all, what gives the satanic forces their unity. It can’t be love. So it must be hatred. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. They see us as their enemy, particularly if we belong to Christ, and so their hatred is their bond.

Now when the demons were driven out by Christ, they always screamed. The holiday was over, and they were going back to Hell proper. Even they didn’t want to go. But perhaps they knew they’d be punished - they’d lost their grip on a human soul, and the devil would punish them for it. A Protestant pastor I spoke to who had an exorcism ministry said to me, “You should see them carry on! They don’t want to go!!”

So I think they’re let out at times to tempt people (Screwtape in CS Lewis’s novel “The Screwtape Letters” called it ‘temptation duty’ when he was writing to Wormwood, adding “Meanwhile I enclose a little booklet, just issued, on the new House of Correction for Incompetent Tempters. It is profusely illustrated, and you will not find a dull page in it.”).

But always in their consciousness is the realisation of what they’re in for if they fail.

I also suspect there is a permanent hint of desperation. They are aware of the lake of fire, whic looked like molten glass to John in his vision, which awaits both them and their master at the end of the age, at which time they’ll lose all their power, and will be aware of nothing but eternal agony. (“What do you want with us, Son of God? Have you come to torture us before the time?”).

They really know what doom means, as they can literally see it. As a consequence they hate us even more, since they blame us for their predicament.

Angels also leave Heaven in the sense of being sent to support us, but their modus operandi is different. God can only woo, and so can they. Although from time to time I think they take a more proactive role. Yet at all times they are in touch with heaven.
 
Shin: I still need to know, “Does hell have a revolving door?” I they are in hell how can they be here? If hell is a state, why persecute us unless it gives them pleasure? If it gives them pain and more misery, why do it? In regards to the remainder of your letter, I still need to read those sermons.
Thinking about it, I think this is a reasonable explanation: less or more pain does not mean one experiences positive feelings of relief, it is just less or more pain.

As to why persecute us, it is for hate’s sake. As to why leave, it is less painful out of the ‘place’ of Hell than to be both there and in the ‘state’ normally. Exorcists inflict pain on the demons to force them to leave that is even greater than being back in that place.

Exorcists are actually torturers after a fashion – of demons. They do this with prayers, with the presence of what is good, of God, which the demons hate.

Demons still have desire – but they would not gain the rewards of any fulfillment of that desire, they are locked in error.

They have made permanent intellectual decisions about what they are to do, and how to do it. Because God causes them to suffer, because of their permanent decisions against His law, they desire vengeance. In other words… they are locked in error. The error will never give them a positive result, but they still pursue it.

It doesn’t make sense to us to continue to pursue something that rewards you only with greater pain, but that is what evil is. Error.

In this life, we pursue sins, because of the temporary positive rewards. In Hell, we still wish to pursue those sins, permanently, we just no longer receive the deceptive positive rewards, and instead receive instant, rather than delayed punishment for that error.

Forever.
 
On second thought, hell does have a revolving door. I’ve been dragged into a department store through a revolving door to shop until I drop.
 
Bob:

Did you get even the minutest sense there was some good intent in the visit? It’s OK if you don’t want to talk about it.

What I’m thinking is, could we attribute such a visit to a residue of caring within the subject and to help the receiver in his Faith by being shown the results of what wrong choices can bring?. It would seem it could only be allowed through the granting of grace, has such revelations would not benefit the damned. After all, what primary realization would it send other than hell DOES exist.?

Of course we would need to explain the above in context with Luke 16,26. The answer is left to Our Lord.

Andy
 
Bob:

Did you get even the minutest sense there was some good intent in the visit? It’s OK if you don’t want to talk about it.

What I’m thinking is, could we attribute such a visit to a residue of caring within the subject and to help the receiver in his Faith by being shown the results of what wrong choices can bring?. It would seem it could only be allowed through the granting of grace, has such revelations would not benefit the damned. After all, what primary realization would it send other than hell DOES exist.?

Of course we would need to explain the above in context with Luke 16,26. The answer is left to Our Lord.

Andy
I don’t remember whether he said he was sent to apologise or wanted to apologise. I do however remember some of the conversation even 31 years later (he died on January 11, 1979, so it will be 31 years in a week’s time). His birthday was just 4 days earlier, and I remember a fairly strong Catholic uncle (one of my father’s in-laws) saying some time later that at a birthday party his sisters put on for him, he looked at the uncle with a face that was “absolutely demonic” (the uncle’s words). He was the only relative who was really prepared to stand up to him.

There were several aspects - at one time he said, “Son, you’ve got to forgive me!” I snarled back sarcastically that he’d treated me like dirt for 20 years and now he wanted forgiveness. He replied, “Son, it’s not for my sake. It’s too late for me! If you don’t forgive me, you’ll destroy yourself!” The reason I found it so hard to forgive him was that his destructiveness was deliberate as he said himself. “I did it deliberately” was his statement at one point.

He also made some predictions, including a pastor I’d meet and who would “discourage you even more”. I met the pastor about four years later, and he himself apologised for discouraging me not long before he himself died, using almost the same words my father did.

I was an atheist when he died, and at the very end as he was starting to scream, he seemed to be brought closer so that I could see the terror with more emphasis, as though to rub the message home. I was not living a very good life at the time. But being an atheist, I did my best to ignore it afterwards, and did not in fact become a Christian for nearly four more years. I wasn’t told of his death by human means for another four days, as his body was not discovered for four days.

The predictions also concern me, as they relate to war for Australia and nuclear wars. I’m particularly concerned about Pakistan in the short term. I just hope they can get their fundamentalists and terrorists under control.

You might say I have a jaundiced opinion about the future of this world over the next decade or so.

So there were several things - an apology, a request for forgiveness for my sake, an object lesson in the terror of final judgement for an atheist (me), and some predictions. I’ll have to wait now to see how the rest of his predictions stack up.
 
Bob:

Thanks for the post, and I know this must be difficult for you.
So there were several things - an apology, a request for forgiveness for my sake, an object lesson in the terror of final judgement for an atheist (me), and some predictions. I’ll have to wait now to see how the rest of his predictions stack up.
I would think that your father would be comforted in some way,(if it were possible) that his predictions did not come true, which gives me another possible.

Consider.

Suppose he gets permission to deliver a message that outwardly has the intent of discouragement, since anyone there can’t do anything unless allowed by a higher demon in the command structure(Aquinas). There would be a limit on how he can get a message across in this way.

He uses a bit of “Brare Rabbit” or reverse psychology, assuming mind reading is not done or doing so would be irrelevant. The demons can’t resist the offer and let him go. The result is where you are now in your Faith and the exact opposite of what the demons expected. You now* know* there is a God.

All things considered, I would make an exception. Seems to me he is worthy of an appeal and devotional prayer even though it dogmatically seems futile to do so. But you are allowed all the same. The Rosary is the answer to counter anything demonic and to make first rate contact with Christ.

Remember though that you are never to invoke his presence(St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel), as that would be disastrous for you.

I think all this is good fortune. 👍 But I also think that this private revelation is a heads up and you will held more accountable on how you direct your life from now on.

Andy
 
Bob:

Thanks for the post, and I know this must be difficult for you.

I would think that your father would be comforted in some way,(if it were possible) that his predictions did not come true, which gives me another possible.

Consider.

Suppose he gets permission to deliver a message that outwardly has the intent of discouragement, since anyone there can’t do anything unless allowed by a higher demon in the command structure(Aquinas). There would be a limit on how he can get a message across in this way.

He uses a bit of “Brare Rabbit” or reverse psychology, assuming mind reading is not done or doing so would be irrelevant. The demons can’t resist the offer and let him go. The result is where you are now in your Faith and the exact opposite of what the demons expected. You now* know* there is a God.

All things considered, I would make an exception. Seems to me he is worthy of an appeal and devotional prayer even though it dogmatically seems futile to do so. But you are allowed all the same. The Rosary is the answer to counter anything demonic and to make first rate contact with Christ.

Remember though that you are never to invoke his presence(St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel), as that would be disastrous for you.

I think all this is good fortune. 👍 But I also think that this private revelation is a heads up and you will held more accountable on how you direct your life from now on.

Andy
I suppose I can make an appeal. I go to a Catholic psychiatrist a couple of times a year (only psychotherapy now, or jaw-boning to put it simply). He’s pretty switches on spiritually, and made the point that if people are in purgatory, there’s usually some sort of spiritual reminder to somebody. If someone is in hell however, all contact seems to be cut off, and it’s final. No one shes any tears for Adolf Hitler for example, or feels they ought to pray for him, although the Mormons have their absurd belief he can be saved.

On the other hand I think Mary indicated a lot of people are in hell because they’ve got nobody to pray for them. But how do you pray for people you don’t even know, and who could have been dead for 500 years?

Obviously I’ve thought a fair bit about the whole proceedings, and one of the first questions that occurred is whether it was a demonic counterfeit, or demonically inspired. Bear in mind however that truth can be discouraging. If God turned up tomorrow and said that in a week’s time He was going to cause massive destruction from one end of the earth to the other as a judgment, His statement would be both truthful and discouraging.

I cannot see anything encouraging about Mary’s comment at Akita that if we didn’t repent and turn around, we “have no idea what is being prepared for you”, or her warning at Fatima that a “worse war” would break out if we didn’t change (and it did).

I think it was my father who appeared. Hard on the heels of the his appearance there was however a second “appearance” and I think that one was demonic.

Since two of his predictions have turned out correctly so far ie. my meeting the discouraging pastor (around October 1982), and the Moslems flying a couple of planes into a couple of buildings (9/11), then what are the odds of the others happening? Will they not happen, or is it simply the case they haven’t happened** yet?**

The old pastor whom he predicted I’d meet was also prophetic. He predicted the second Gulf War; the massacre at Port Arthur (Australian massacre in 1996); that I’d be doing a cleaning job, wouldn’t do it for long, but that the Lord “would just want me to hear about a ghost” (despite the strangeness, that happened in 2006, when I was being shown a building in Ipswich west of Brisbane which had to be cleaned. There’d been a suicide there in the 1960’s.); the future prime ministership of a certain Australian politician; that I’d become a Catholic (1996 or 97); a conspiracy against me that would cost me my job in a certain government department, partly involving a certain Presbyterian person; his own eldest son would have a serious health issue (he had a stroke in 1996 or 97 and hasn’t worked since) and that my own sister would not live very long (she died of leukaemia in 2005).

Yet he himself died in 1992. It was his wisdom and prophetic insights that made me admire him so much (“you’ll think he’s great” was the term my father used).

He also felt Catholics tended to soft-pedal judgment, and I’ve had a number of people on this site try to tell me there’s hope for my father. Maybe there is, but the scream I witnessed on the night he died seems to indicate otherwise.

I think the main thrust is that there’s a lot of trouble coming. I think God might be getting fed up with us.

The pastor also thought God was “doing something to the sun”. If He is, it won’t be for our benefit.
 
Bob:
I think that people offer you hope for your Father because we shouldn’t be too hasty about saying anybody is in hell. We just don’t know. The Church has never stated that a particular person is in hell. We know hell exists, but we do not know who is there. As a contrast we know certain people are in heaven. The Church has officially proclaimed them saints.

Now back to my original question: If the demons and Satan are in hell, how do they get out to torment us? And if they can get out, why can’t everybody? Do they prefer their suffering more than the joy of heaven?

Sorry, I re-read the previous posts and can see that you at least partially answered my question. I will need to rethink this question and discover what truth I am attempting to undertstand
 
Bob:
I think that people offer you hope for your Father because we shouldn’t be too hasty about saying anybody is in hell. We just don’t know. The Church has never stated that a particular person is in hell. We know hell exists, but we do not know who is there. As a contrast we know certain people are in heaven. The Church has officially proclaimed them saints.

Now back to my original question: If the demons and Satan are in hell, how do they get out to torment us? And if they can get out, why can’t everybody? Do they prefer their suffering more than the joy of heaven?

Sorry, I re-read the previous posts and can see that you at least partially answered my question. I will need to rethink this question and discover what truth I am attempting to undertstand
I suppose if you want to think of Hell as something like an SS military barracks, you might get some insight. SS soldiers were allowed “out”, but they were still on duty and still bound to the barracks, and to Hitler by oath, and always fanatical.

To be able to answer your question on why demons seemingly prefer suffering in hell rather than joy in heaven, you’d need to handle several different themes at once -
  1. You’d need to develop a demonic mind-set, and I don’t recommend that (the closest we could get would be the criminal mind, which prefers a life spent lurching from one crisis to another, never able to trust one’s compatriots, in and out of jail, instead of holding down a job and a more straightforward lifestyle. Why?).
  2. What repayment can they make to God for their rebellion? Christ paid ours, but who is going to pay theirs? As I understand it there has to be some atonement. According to the Catechism, their rebellion was irrevocable.
  3. Suppose one particular demon wanted to “go straight”. What do you think Satan and all the other demons would do? Let him go his or her own way? At the very first perceived inclination of a particular demon to turn to God (and they can read each other’s thoughts, just as they can read yours and mine), the full forces of Hell would be arraigned against it. What do you think would happen if an Al Quaeda terrorist started thinking positively about the Christian faith, and mentioned it to one of his fellows? How long would he last?
As I said, the only way to fully answer this question would be to understand the demonic mind. And the only way to do that would be to become irredeemably evil. So there’s really not much point in pursuing this topic much further. The fact is they do get out of Hell to tempt people; on occasion they even possess people, although that is not common; and they don’t want to go back there if they can avoid it. So they scream when they’re driven out.

Which should give us some idea of what Hell is like.
 
Bob and Andy: Both good replies that have opened up new ground for me. Your answers have allowed me to think about this matter differently. Bob I like the SS analogy and Andy thanks for your reference to the Summa. And for now I think Bob is correct. We’ve pushed this question to its end. This thread has no more spool. Thanks.
 
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