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pohandes
Guest
How we can prove that when Lord Jesus said “I am”, he did mean “I am YHWH”?
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I am not sure he means “I am YHWH”, but he rather takes up for himself the way God reveals himself in the Old Testament.
When God reveals Who He is to Moses at the burning bush, he says “I am who I am” (Exodus 3:14).
In the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament, these words are rendered as “Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν” (Ego eimi ho ôn). The two first words, “ego eimi” (I am), are the same words Jesus says again and again in John’s Gospel.
These words were associated deeply enough with God’s identity that John can write about the guards who came to arrest Jesus : “When Jesus said, “I am [he]” (“ego eimi” in Greek) they drew back and fell to the ground” (John 18:6), because this simple phrase was recognizable enough to strike them with fear.
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pohandes
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Of course it is similar To What God said in old testament, but How can we be sure that Lord Jesus meant that verse?
Does it prove anything?
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RoseScented
Guest
Not in any shape or form a scholar on this point, just thought I’d pass along what I’ve been told about this particular point.
The use of “I am” in the Bible isn’t an incomplete sentence such as “I am X” or “I am Y” (sometimes translations add things to make more sense), but instead it’s using the to-be verbs to indicate something about the speaker and to claim a title or name. In this case it’s God the Father and Jesus literally saying they are “being”, “existence”, everything else that is used for the verb to-be. Which makes sense since we say that all things subsist in God and without God we could not “be”.
Maybe that’s helpful to you, maybe it’s more confusing instead. I have no clue. I just thought I’d see if that helped. If I’m completely wrong I’d like correction though since I’ve always worked from that translation understanding of those parts of scripture.
The use of “I am” in the Bible isn’t an incomplete sentence such as “I am X” or “I am Y” (sometimes translations add things to make more sense), but instead it’s using the to-be verbs to indicate something about the speaker and to claim a title or name. In this case it’s God the Father and Jesus literally saying they are “being”, “existence”, everything else that is used for the verb to-be. Which makes sense since we say that all things subsist in God and without God we could not “be”.
Maybe that’s helpful to you, maybe it’s more confusing instead. I have no clue. I just thought I’d see if that helped. If I’m completely wrong I’d like correction though since I’ve always worked from that translation understanding of those parts of scripture.
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pohandes
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It was really helpful, but It did not make me sure!
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poche
Guest
When he said that the Jews tried to kill him. They weren’t able to because it wasn’t His time.
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pohandes
Guest
Is this impossible for Jews to misunderstand what Lord Jesus said?
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fide
Guest
To paraphrase a line from the book/film “Song of Bernadette”:
For those with faith, no proof is necessary; for those without faith, no proof is sufficient.
To cite Scripture,
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.
The “this is not your own doing” is crucially important and true! A conclusion, based on human observations and/or reasonings (i.e. “proof”), can add to the certainty of faith, but cannot replace it.
For those with faith, no proof is necessary; for those without faith, no proof is sufficient.
To cite Scripture,
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.
The “this is not your own doing” is crucially important and true! A conclusion, based on human observations and/or reasonings (i.e. “proof”), can add to the certainty of faith, but cannot replace it.
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adf417
Guest
Food for thought-
I dont know the exact chronological order of the bible but if you dont consider the possibility that Job was written before Exodus, the tetragrammaton (YHWH) shows up over 160 times between Genesis and the 3rd chapter of Exodus where Moses ask God what he should tell the Israelites His name is.
I find it highly unlikely God would have meant “I am YHWH”.
Peace!!!
I dont know the exact chronological order of the bible but if you dont consider the possibility that Job was written before Exodus, the tetragrammaton (YHWH) shows up over 160 times between Genesis and the 3rd chapter of Exodus where Moses ask God what he should tell the Israelites His name is.
I find it highly unlikely God would have meant “I am YHWH”.
Peace!!!
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pohandes
Guest
It is not right. If it was true, nobody leave his faith and took another faith.
I don’t think Saint Paul meant that "Just accept, and Do not ask any question.
If I did not ask for reasons, I never became a Catholic.
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pohandes
Guest
Please show us your evidences.
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Wesrock
Guest
None of the gospels, including John, are written “just because”. The authors were not interested in dry historical chronicles. They were written very intentionally to convey certain teachings and messages. John, specifically, was probably written after 90 AD and was a very theological and interpretive text.
When John includes instances where Jesus says “ego eimi” (I am) to profound effect the author is intentionally calling back to the theophany of the burning bush where God declares I AM THAT I AM when Moses asks for a name. When John and other Johannine literature refers to Jesus as the bridegroom (of the Church), that is very specifically calling back to God’s identity as the groom/husband of Israel I’m various wisdom and prophetic literature. John is not unmindful of what he’s writing or alluding to. The author specifically announces that Jesus is the Light, the Logos of God who was with God at the beginning and is God in the opening of his text, and the Gospel culminates with the declaration of a doubter (who stands for certain Christians of his time, and again isn’t just a dry historical character) saying, “My Lord and my God.”
John is mindful of his audience in 90 AD. He is writing for them. He is using this Gospel specifically to deliver a theological message to them. This isn’t “let me just jot down my story.” Even to what degree it is that, he has his audience who have been gathering and listening and practicing for 50 years now, and this is a teaching document with characters in the narrative who stand in for the audience.
Edit: I double posted and I can’t get the delete button to disappear. But I’ll add that even if you approach it as an agnostic skeptic instead of a believer and don’t necessarily take it as true, I still feel that if you are knowledgeable of the Bible and ask yourself what the author was trying to say (regardless of whether you believe it) while taking into account the historical context of when it was written, the identity of Jesus with the LORD and the Eucharistic discourse (regarding the real presence, a different topic) is pretty clear.
When John includes instances where Jesus says “ego eimi” (I am) to profound effect the author is intentionally calling back to the theophany of the burning bush where God declares I AM THAT I AM when Moses asks for a name. When John and other Johannine literature refers to Jesus as the bridegroom (of the Church), that is very specifically calling back to God’s identity as the groom/husband of Israel I’m various wisdom and prophetic literature. John is not unmindful of what he’s writing or alluding to. The author specifically announces that Jesus is the Light, the Logos of God who was with God at the beginning and is God in the opening of his text, and the Gospel culminates with the declaration of a doubter (who stands for certain Christians of his time, and again isn’t just a dry historical character) saying, “My Lord and my God.”
John is mindful of his audience in 90 AD. He is writing for them. He is using this Gospel specifically to deliver a theological message to them. This isn’t “let me just jot down my story.” Even to what degree it is that, he has his audience who have been gathering and listening and practicing for 50 years now, and this is a teaching document with characters in the narrative who stand in for the audience.
Edit: I double posted and I can’t get the delete button to disappear. But I’ll add that even if you approach it as an agnostic skeptic instead of a believer and don’t necessarily take it as true, I still feel that if you are knowledgeable of the Bible and ask yourself what the author was trying to say (regardless of whether you believe it) while taking into account the historical context of when it was written, the identity of Jesus with the LORD and the Eucharistic discourse (regarding the real presence, a different topic) is pretty clear.
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adf417
Guest
What evidence? Are you asking me to count the number of times YHWH is in the bible in this section for you? I dont understand.Please show us your evidences.
Peace!!!
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Wesrock
Guest
Ugh, I’m so mad at my phone now. Those two posts should be reversed. Ah well…
Edit: Wait…I overwrote my original post?!
Edit 2: Fixed. Dumb phone.
Edit: Wait…I overwrote my original post?!
Edit 2: Fixed. Dumb phone.
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pohandes
Guest
Yes, sir.
What is your reason for this?
Thanks. It is first time, I read this. But what is your reason for this calling back? They may just narrate what Lord Jesus said.
Nice statement, but has no relation to my question.
It is my purpose in this question.
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quies
Guest
John 8:58
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Yeshua said to them: “Timeless truth I speak to you: Before Abraham would exist, I AM THE LIVING GOD.”
RSVCE:
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”[
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Yeshua said to them: “Timeless truth I speak to you: Before Abraham would exist, I AM THE LIVING GOD.”
RSVCE:
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”[
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pohandes
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Ok. So?
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pohandes
Guest
Dear Vico, welcome to this discussion. That Thread is closed. What point in that Thread you are pointing?
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Vico
Guest
Nothing in particular.
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