Does "in the beginning" mean Eternity?

[pohandes]

all things = all beings and objects

Merriam-Webster definition of thing, (noun):

1. an object or entity not precisely designated or capable of being designated

Merriam-Webster definition of entity, (noun):
1a. being, existence

Merriam-Webster definition of object, (noun):
1a. something material that may be perceived by the senses

Attention to “Through him”. He is a tool in creation, not the creator.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

all things = all beings and objects

Merriam-Webster definition of thing, (noun):

1. an object or entity not precisely designated or capable of being designated

Merriam-Webster definition of entity, (noun):
1a. being, existence

Merriam-Webster definition of object, (noun):
1a. something material that may be perceived by the senses

Attention to “Through him”. He is a tool in creation, not the creator.

God the Father created the world through the Son (Word) in the Holy Spirit.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

292 The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit,132 inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church’s rule of faith: “There exists but one God. . . he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself , that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom”, “by the Son and the Spirit” who, so to speak, are “his hands”.133 Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.

132 Cf. Ps 33:6; 104:30; Gen 1:2-3.
133 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 2,30,9; 4,20,I: PG 7/1,822,1032.

 

[pohandes]

God the Father created the world through the Son (Word) in the Holy Spirit.

He begot the Son(word) and then created the world through him. I agree. why we must think that the son is God?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

God the Father created the world through the Son (Word) in the Holy Spirit.

He begot the Son(word) and then created the world through him. I agree. why we must think that the son is God?

There was no event in time that corresponds with “begotten”. The son is eternally begotten, which is called the ontological generation. Similarly the Holy Spirit is eternally proceeding. There is no change in the Holy Trinity.

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in his Summa Theologica
(First Part, Question 27 The procession of the divine persons, Article 2 Whether any procession in God can be called generation?):

I answer that , The procession of the Word in God is called generation. In proof whereof we must observe that generation has a twofold meaning: one common to everything subject to generation and corruption; in which sense generation is nothing but change from non-existence to existence. In another sense it is proper and belongs to living things; in which sense it signifies the origin of a living being from a conjoined living principle; and this is properly called birth.

 

[pohandes]

There was no event in time that corresponds with “begotten”. The son is eternally begotten, which is called the ontological procession. Similarly the Holy Spirit is eternally proceeding. There is no change in the Holy Trinity.

Yes. It is not about time. It is about Requirement. Without God the father, there would no Son and Holy Spirit, So they both need God the Father to exist, and God does not need !!

 

[Vico]

Vico:

There was no event in time that corresponds with “begotten”. The son is eternally begotten, which is called the ontological procession. Similarly the Holy Spirit is eternally proceeding. There is no change in the Holy Trinity.

Yes. It is not about time. It is about Requirement. Without God the father, there would no Son and Holy Spirit, So they both need God the Father to exist, and God does not need !!

Without all three Father, Son, and Holy Spirit there would be no Holy Trinity. There is no independence of the three persons. The persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are entirely in one another. The Holy Trinity was not created.

 

[JerryZ]

When the Universe came into existence Time started.
That is “The beginning” there is “NO before” since Time did not exist.
The Word spoke and Time began.
Peace!

 

[pohandes]

Without all three Father, Son, and Holy Spirit there would be no Holy Trinity. There is no independence of the three persons. The persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are entirely in one another. The Holy Trinity was not created.

The Question is simple: Without God the Father, could son and Holy spirit exist?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Without all three Father, Son, and Holy Spirit there would be no Holy Trinity. There is no independence of the three persons. The persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are entirely in one another. The Holy Trinity was not created.

The Question is simple: Without God the Father, could son and Holy spirit exist?

The answer is easy: no. Also without God the Son, the Father and Holy Spirit could not exist. Also without God the Holy Spirit, God the Father and the Son could not exist.

Note also that if there is not both Father and Son then there is no Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, and if the is no Son, then there is no Father, or if there is no Father, then there is no Son. There would be no Holy Trinity at all, however we know that this is not true.

 

[pohandes]

The answer is easy: no. Also without God the Son, the Father and Holy Spirit could not exist. Also without God the Holy Spirit, God the Father and the Son could not exist.

Note also that if there is not both Father and Son then there is no Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, and if the is no Son, then there is no Father, or if there is no Father, then there is no Son. There would be no Holy Trinity at all, however we know that this is not true.

This mean the nead eachother to exist. Does God need anything?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The answer is easy: no. Also without God the Son, the Father and Holy Spirit could not exist. Also without God the Holy Spirit, God the Father and the Son could not exist.

Note also that if there is not both Father and Son then there is no Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, and if the is no Son, then there is no Father, or if there is no Father, then there is no Son. There would be no Holy Trinity at all, however we know that this is not true.

This mean the nead eachother to exist. Does God need anything?

There is one the Holy Trinity, eternally three persons, which is not due to any need, rather there is love.

 

[pohandes]

There is one the Holy Trinity, eternally three persons, which is not due to any need, rather there is love.

How they are eternally, while need each other and one person produced two other persons? If the only eternal is the God, then how a eternal person (who is the God) got existence from other person?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

There is one the Holy Trinity, eternally three persons, which is not due to any need, rather there is love.

How they are eternally, while need each other and one person produced two other persons? If the only eternal is the God, then how a eternal person (who is the God) got existence from other person?

There is only one nature, one being, with no beginning or end, for the Holy Trinity.

 

[pohandes]

There is only one nature, one being.

What are the persons? Part of this one nature/being or other than that or Equal to it?

On the other hand my problem is not about God’s essence but about persons. You say God the father has begotten the son, So God the Father is the cause and son is the effect! God is self-exist and son can’t be self-exist, because his existence is from God the Father.

Even Bible teaches that: “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)

 

[Vico]

Vico:

There is only one nature, one being.

What are the persons? Part of this one nature/being or other than that or Equal to it?

On the other hand my problem is not about God’s essence but about persons. You say God the father has begotten the son, So God the Father is the cause and son is the effect! God is self-exist and son can’t be self-exist, because his existence is from God the Father.

Even Bible teaches that: “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)

The Son is co-eternal and co-uncreated with the Father, the generation is not in time. John 1:5 shows that the life is eternal, not in time. John 5:26 shows life in the Incarnation (the human nature of Jesus, body and soul, was assumed by the the eternal Word).

 

[pohandes]

The Son is co-eternal and co-uncreated with the Father,

My problem is not about the words! You call the son co-uncreated with the father. My problem is: God needs no one to exist and Father gave existence to him, So he needed Father to exist, even in the eternity!

You say son is not created but begotten, And I say again: The problem is not about the words! The begotten needs begetting to exist!

the generation is not in time

Causality does not need time. As I said God can create/beget/proceed every Immaterial being in the eternity

John 1:5 shows that the life is eternal, not in time

John1:5 says: “The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it” How does it show that?

John 5:26 shows life in the Incarnation (the human nature of Jesus, body and soul, was assumed by the the eternal Word).

In fact, assumed by the father.

 

[Vico]

…
God needs no one to exist and Father gave existence to him, So he needed Father to exist, even in the eternity!
…
John1:5 says: “The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it” How does it show that?
…
In fact, assumed by the father.

The Father is called the aitia (cause) of the hypostases of the Son and the Holy Spirit, and this unique cause is not prior to his effects, for in the Trinity there is no priority and posteriority. Catechism of the Catholic Church No. 248 states “the Father, as “the principle without principle”,79 is the first origin of the Spirit” [79 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331.]

The verse is John 1:4 not John 1:5, sorry.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

In the Incarnation, the Word became flesh. See also John 1:14. Assumed by the person of the Son (the Word).

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

St. John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book 1, Chapter 8 has:

All then that the Son and the Spirit have is from the Father, even their very being: and unless the Father is, neither the Son nor the Spirit is. And unless the Father possesses a certain attribute, neither the Son nor the Spirit possesses it: and through the Father, that is, because of the Father’s existence , the Son and the Spirit exist, and through the Father, that is, because of the Father having the qualities, the Son and the Spirit have all their qualities, those of being unbegotten, and of birth and of procession being excepted. For in these hypostatic or personal properties alone do the three holy subsistences differ from each other, being indivisibly divided not by essence but by the distinguishing mark of their proper and peculiar subsistence.

Further we say that each of the three has a perfect subsistence, that we may understand not one compound perfect nature made up of three imperfect elements, but one simple essence, surpassing and preceding perfection, existing in three perfect subsistences.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33041.htm

 

[pohandes]

The Father is called the aitia (cause) of the hypostases of the Son and the Holy Spirit, and this unique cause is not prior to his effects, for in the Trinity there is no priority and posteriority

So the Son and the Holy Spirit got(!) a cause, and we know that God has no cause.

And, of course there is a priority and posteriority, But in the Existence; not in time. Because without the Father, there would be not Son and Holy Spirit, But the Father does not need Son and Holy Spirit to exist.

The verse is John 1:4 not John 1:5, sorry.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Life, not existence. Yes God begot him and made him the source of life. Every alive being has existence, but it is not true to say that every existing thing has life.

On the other hand. We are not sure that John 5:56 talks about incarnation. It can be about Some thing happen in eternity. It can be so: God begot the Son and gave him the life, and so “in him was life”.

In the Incarnation, the Word became flesh. See also John 1:14. Assumed by the person of the Son (the Word).

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If the word is God, How is it possible for him, to become a flesh? Does God change? Is this possible for self-exist to become a Possible Existence?

 

[pohandes]

St. John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book 1, Chapter 8 has:

All then that the Son and the Spirit have is from the Father, even their very being: and unless the Father is, neither the Son nor the Spirit is. And unless the Father possesses a certain attribute, neither the Son nor the Spirit possesses it: and through the Father, that is, because of the Father’s existence , the Son and the Spirit exist, and through the Father, that is, because of the Father having the qualities, the Son and the Spirit have all their qualities, those of being unbegotten, and of birth and of procession being excepted. For in these hypostatic or personal properties alone do the three holy subsistences differ from each other, being indivisibly divided not by essence but by the distinguishing mark of their proper and peculiar subsistence.

Further we say that each of the three has a perfect subsistence, that we may understand not one compound perfect nature made up of three imperfect elements, but one simple essence, surpassing and preceding perfection, existing in three perfect subsistences.

Let’s read it again:

. And unless the Father possesses a certain attribute, neither the Son nor the Spirit possesses it

What is this attribute? Is a good attribute or bad attribute?

If it is a good attribute, then the Son and the Holy Spirit are not God, because there is a goodness that they do not have.

If it is a bad attribute, Then The Father is not God, Because there is no vice in the God.

and through the Father, that is, because of the Father’s existence , the Son and the Spirit exist

Yes, And while “the Son and the Spirit exist, because of the Father’s existence.” The Son and the Spirit can’t be God, because God is self-exist, and no one gives him anything (Romans 11:35)

and through the Father, that is, because of the Father having the qualities, the Son and the Spirit have all their qualities

So The Father gave them all their qualities. And I just notify that Saint Paul says: “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?” (Romans 11:35)

For in these hypostatic or personal properties alone do the three holy subsistences differ from each other, being indivisibly divided not by essence but by the distinguishing mark of their proper and peculiar subsistence.

My problem is not about being peculiar, but about possibility.

 

[Vico]

…
So the Son and the Holy Spirit got(!) a cause, and we know that God has no cause.

And, of course there is a priority and posteriority, But in the Existence; not in time. Because without the Father, there would be not Son and Holy Spirit, But the Father does not need Son and Holy Spirit to exist.
…

On the other hand. We are not sure that John 5:56 talks about incarnation. It can be about Some thing happen in eternity. It can be so: God begot the Son and gave him the life, and so “in him was life”.
…
If the word is God, How is it possible for him, to become a flesh? Does God change? Is this possible for self-exist to become a Possible Existence?

I wrongly quoted “John 1:5 shows that the life is eternal, not in time” but that is John 1:4

No, the word got implies time.

There was no change in the divine nature or person of the Son of God in the assumption of human nature in the Incarnation.

John 5:26 does concern the Incarnation, for Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.

Commentary of St. John Chrysostom, Homily 39

John 5:26
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to have life in Himself.”

3. Do you see that this declares a perfect likeness save in one point, which is the One being a Father, and the Other a Son? For the expression has given, merely introduces this distinction, but declares that all the rest is equal and exactly alike. Whence it is clear that the Son does all things with as much authority and power as the Father, and that He is not empowered from some other source, for He has life so as the Father has.
…
John 5:28 “That He is the Son of Man, marvel not at this.”

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240139.htm