Does internet mass fulfill the Holy Obligation?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Azzy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Honestly, I cannot answer ANY of those questions in the poll. And why would one want to go to so much work creating a poll like this. Mass is not only a holy day of obligation; it’s a day of which we are not only obligated but should WANT to be there.

I travel all over the world myself, and to this day, I have never missed. I place the mass into my agenda, where ever I go. I love to experience the Mass in a foreign country.

I go because I WANT to be there, not because I’m obligated. After mass I watch it on TV, but it’s not the same as being close to heaven at the mass.
Funny these subtle digs where people are making assumptions. The poll took 2 clicks and about 10 seconds to type. Where did I imply I did not WANT to go to mass? If I am the only person traveling, of course I can only travel where there are Catholic churches nearby. I have attended Mass many times in Thailand and have cheerfully attended daily mass for years in this country. Where I live now, the closest church is 34 miles away and I commute every week when there is not a serious, well accepted need such as illness. However, believe it or not, there are cities and provinces that do not have Catholic churches for many miles. Does this mean these areas are off limits for travel? When I am traveling and visiting people who are not Catholic, is it proper to expect their relatives to give up several hours of their day to take me to church? My wife’s parents do not own a car. It would fall to an Aunt to drive. Did you go by yourself for 50 miles by bus and cab without being able to tell the cab driver where to take you in his language?

Obviously there are valid reasons to miss mass that do not include not wanting to go, or there would not be these clauses in the Catechism. I thought I was asking for a clarification in the wording of the Catechism not creating a contest for who is the holiest Catholic based on mass attendance. I have been told many times by great priests, it is what goes on the times outside of church where we are really judged. Outside of some cell phone usage, pretty much everyone I have ever seen acts holy in Church.
 
While I respect Fr. Serpa, I will be interested whether his answer will withstand the test of time.

I’d be far more interested in a Canon Lawyers take on this ( and please, a real Canonist, not one of our armchair CAF lawyers who like to simple cut and paste the text of the law without any knowledge of legal theory or precedence).

Here is why it is interesting:

Like the interpretation of scripture, context is very important in interpretation of law, teaching, and tradition. For example, an indulgence can be earned by someone receiving a blessing of a crowd by the Holy a Father, even on TV, so might it not make sense that the Mass obligation be fulfilled by a Tv or other media…the only thing that could not be done would be receiving communion, but Church precepts say that must only be done once a year.

It might also be argued that our universal daily prayers through the daily mass or LOTH is questionable, unless all the faithful meet in one gigantic assembly at one time.

Many in the church also content the word must be proclaimed, thus heard, therefore following along with paper or electronic text is somehow not proper. Again, context is not considered, because listening may have been a necessity prior to increases in literacy and availability of text, but it may not be today.

The case could be made that it is a matter the intent and context of rules.

Maybe in the future you may see a priest offering the sacrament of reconciliation over Skype or FaceTime!

If the best argument we can present is because we’ve never done any of these things that way before, we may be missing a great opportunity to offer the many blessings of God via use of new venues created by Him!
Great forward thinking comment. It would not be the 1st time the church fell behind the times in regards to technology. If we insist on following the law because it has always been the law, we are no better than the Pharisees Jesus chided. Jesus worked on the Sabbath, it was a main charge against him. The apostles violated the dietary rules. The question should be what will save the most souls.
 
This implies that the two are mutually exclusive, which they certainly are not. Do you want to be at mass at 10 am on a Tuesday morning? Maybe you do, but you choose not to because family or work obligations must be balanced. On the other hand, if it were an obligation, you might well order your priorities differently.

The OP asked a question about the obligation. I don’t think it’s charitable to make any assumptions about what he “wants”, since he didn’t reveal that.
Thank you for bringing up this important distinction!!
 
Funny these subtle digs where people are making assumptions.
You’ve made your subtle digs too…
The poll took 2 clicks and about 10 seconds to type. Where did I imply I did not WANT to go to mass? If I am the only person traveling, of course I can only travel where there are Catholic churches nearby. I have attended Mass many times in Thailand and have cheerfully attended daily mass for years in this country. Where I live now, the closest church is 34 miles away and I commute every week when there is not a serious, well accepted need such as illness. However, believe it or not, there are cities and provinces that do not have Catholic churches for many miles. Does this mean these areas are off limits for travel? When I am traveling and visiting people who are not Catholic, is it proper to expect their relatives to give up several hours of their day to take me to church? My wife’s parents do not own a car. It would fall to an Aunt to drive. Did you go by yourself for 50 miles by bus and cab without being able to tell the cab driver where to take you in his language?
Obviously there are valid reasons to miss mass that do not include not wanting to go, or there would not be these clauses in the Catechism. I thought I was asking for a clarification in the wording of the Catechism not creating a contest for who is the holiest Catholic based on mass attendance. I have been told many times by great priests, it is what goes on the times outside of church where we are really judged. Outside of some cell phone usage, pretty much everyone I have ever seen acts holy in Church.
I think that you are pretty clear on the binding effect of the obligation when one is unable to attend Mass. Traveling is one cause of the lifting of the obligation–obviously not if you are staying next door to a church, bit certainly if it poses a grave difficulty. Another cause is distance–which distance can be gathered to be an hour or more away.

However, there is a difference between a blessing, which is a sacrament**al, **and a sacrament. One must be present for the effect of a sacrament to occur–hence the impossibility of receiving the absolution of Confession over the phone.
 
You’ve made your subtle digs too…

I think that you are pretty clear on the binding effect of the obligation when one is unable to attend Mass. Traveling is one cause of the lifting of the obligation–obviously not if you are staying next door to a church, bit certainly if it poses a grave difficulty. Another cause is distance–which distance can be gathered to be an hour or more away.

However, there is a difference between a blessing, which is a sacrament**al, **and a sacrament. One must be present for the effect of a sacrament to occur–hence the impossibility of receiving the absolution of Confession over the phone.
More insightful comments. Thanks for taking a stab at defining grave difficulty. It is an interesting point to insist a sacrament requires being present. The mass is obviously not a sacrament and the post suggesting online mass might become acceptable did mention the need to get to church to receive communion for the minimum once a year. Hopefully even if acceptable, people would make every effort to obtain communion as often as reasonably possible. I believe you were aiming at the possibility of a skype confession. The bible quote that comes to my mind is Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. I don’t see any requirement to be in person for that. Last rites would be hard to do on the internet but penance seems do-able to me, given the immediate benefit for a person in the state of sin.
 
Great forward thinking comment. It would not be the 1st time the church fell behind the times in regards to technology. If we insist on following the law because it has always been the law, we are no better than the Pharisees Jesus chided. Jesus worked on the Sabbath, it was a main charge against him. The apostles violated the dietary rules. The question should be what will save the most souls.
Being present at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Watching may be beneficial if one cannot go to Mass, but watching Mass in no way serves as meeting the obligation.

As has been stated, if one is unable, truly unable to attend Mass; then there is no obligation. So in those cases, please by all means watch Mass of that day which you cannot make it to Mass, it can serve spiritual needs.
 
More insightful comments. Thanks for taking a stab at defining grave difficulty.** It is an interesting point to insist a sacrament requires being present**. The mass is obviously not a sacrament and the post suggesting online mass might become acceptable did mention the need to get to church to receive communion for the minimum once a year. Hopefully even if acceptable, people would make every effort to obtain communion as often as reasonably possible. I believe you were aiming at the possibility of a skype confession. The bible quote that comes to my mind is Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. I don’t see any requirement to be in person for that. Last rites would be hard to do on the internet but penance seems do-able to me, given the immediate benefit for a person in the state of sin.
Is it not required for a person to be present to validly receive a sacrament? How does that work when one is not present?

The Mass in its entirety is the Eucharistic Celebration. It is the "source and summit” of our Catholic Faith. It is required, by obligation to participate in the Eucharistic Celebration. One can only participate by being present. It may be nice and edifying to watch Mass on TV or the internet, but such action cannot serve and meeting any obligation for anything. Sorry.

There are legitimate reasons for missing Mass, no need to try to “make up for it”. I was out of town for work during the recent ice storm in Arkansas. There was only one Catholic Church within hundreds of miles and it was in the town where I was working. But after getting over the excitement of finding a church I realized the reality, because the roads were completely iced over there would be no Mass that Sunday. It was a long few days before I was able to get home and go to Mass and receive Him!

Another point, the magisterium of the Church cannot “bind or loose” what is a commandment of God. “Thou shall keep holy the Sabbath.”
 
Is it not required for a person to be present to validly receive a sacrament? How does that work when one is not present?

The Mass in its entirety is the Eucharistic Celebration. It is the "source and summit” of our Catholic Faith. It is required, by obligation to participate in the Eucharistic Celebration. One can only participate by being present. It may be nice and edifying to watch Mass on TV or the internet, but such action cannot serve and meeting any obligation for anything. Sorry.

There are legitimate reasons for missing Mass, no need to try to “make up for it”. I was out of town for work during the recent ice storm in Arkansas. There was only one Catholic Church within hundreds of miles and it was in the town where I was working. But after getting over the excitement of finding a church I realized the reality, because the roads were completely iced over there would be no Mass that Sunday. It was a long few days before I was able to get home and go to Mass and receive Him!

Another point, the magisterium of the Church cannot “bind or loose” what is a commandment of God. “Thou shall keep holy the Sabbath.”
I believe the church has already done exactly that. Sabbath is Saturday. And just how this is done was not set in stone on Moses’ tablets. The jews thought this meant no work at all and still have detailed rules, no mechanical devices etc. However, Jesus saw fit to violate these laws by doing His work and curing on the Sabbath. A charge bought against Him. Laws must have context in most all instances.
 
I believe the church has already done exactly that. Sabbath is Saturday. And just how this is done was not set in stone on Moses’ tablets. The jews thought this meant no work at all and still have detailed rules, no mechanical devices etc. However, Jesus saw fit to violate these laws by doing His work and curing on the Sabbath. A charge bought against Him. Laws must have context in most all instances.
I will not argue with you, you seem to have your mind made up. It does remain true that a person must be present to receive a sacrament. One must be present to meet the obligation of the Sunday Mass obligation. TV & internet Mass is nice, but that’s it.

PS. The Christian Sabbath is the day of the Son, Sunday; the day of Jesus’ resurrection.
 
I will not argue with you, you seem to have your mind made up. It does remain true that a person must be present to receive a sacrament. One must be present to meet the obligation of the Sunday Mass obligation. TV & internet Mass is nice, but that’s it.

PS. The Christian Sabbath is the day of the Son, Sunday; the day of Jesus’ resurrection.
I don’t think we have any arugments. You have stated what is the current state of affairs. There has been a good discussion on what might be in the future. The church had very good reason to move our holy day from Saturday to Sunday. I don’t think we can call our holy day the Sabbath any more than you can call Saturday Sunday. I am not sure about this web site bible.ca/ntx-sabbath-sunday.htm but it makes a simple argument to: Is Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?
No! The Sabbath was Saturday…

" Nowhere in the Bible is it affirmed that the first day of the week is given in place of the Sabbath. It is part of the new covenant and with a new significance, the day which our blessed Lord was raised from death according to Mark 16: 9. It is the day according to the examples the Lord’s followers are to break bread, to Only a few years after the death of the last "But Sunday is the day which we hold our set forth in Acts 20: 7, that the Lord’s followers are to break bread, partake of the Lord’s supper. Only a few years after the death of the Apostle, Justin Martyr wrote, “But Sunday is the day which we hold our common assembly, because it is the first day of the week, and Jesus our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead”. "
 
More insightful comments. Thanks for taking a stab at defining grave difficulty. It is an interesting point to insist a sacrament requires being present.
Yes. From the Baltimore Catechism: *A sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to impart grace. *It is a physical sign of a spiritual reality, and its physicality is in recognition of our dual nature’s consisting of both material and spiritual aspects. So, because a sacrament is a physical sign, we must be physically present.
The mass is obviously not a sacrament
The Mass totally *is *a sacrament! During the Mass, Christ Himself becomes physically present in a real way.
and the post suggesting online mass might become acceptable did mention the need to get to church to receive communion for the minimum once a year.
No–as the others pointed out, the obligation is to be physically present. If one *cannot *be physically present, there is no obligation.

The obligation to attend Sunday Mass is to attend–to be physically present and to be attentive, an older definition. There is no obligation to receive the Eucharist except for once a year at Easter-time (and this was instituted at a time when few ever received the Eucharist, altho they attended Mass). Thus, we know that the weekly obligation is not for the purpose of receiving the Eucharist, and indeed the Church teaches that the obligation is to worship God. Worship involves sacrifice, and as members of the Body of Christ (the Church), we attend Mass as a sacrifice–the Mass is the “re-membering” of Christ’ sacrificial suffering and death. We need to be physically present so that God is worshipped properly, and so that we fulfill part of our obligations in justice to God to worship Him.
Hopefully even if acceptable, people would make every effort to obtain communion as often as reasonably possible. I believe you were aiming at the possibility of a skype confession.
No, the Church already has made it clear one must be physically present since the advent of the telephone.
The bible quote that comes to my mind is Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. I don’t see any requirement to be in person for that. Last rites would be hard to do on the internet but penance seems do-able to me, given the immediate benefit for a person in the state of sin.
Hopefully I have been able to clarify why one must be phycically present to participate ij a sacrament 🙂
 
Yes. From the Baltimore Catechism: *A sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to impart grace. *It is a physical sign of a spiritual reality, and its physicality is in recognition of our dual nature’s consisting of both material and spiritual aspects. So, because a sacrament is a physical sign, we must be physically present.

The Mass totally *is *a sacrament! During the Mass, Christ Himself becomes physically present in a real way.

No–as the others pointed out, the obligation is to be physically present. If one *cannot *be physically present, there is no obligation.

The obligation to attend Sunday Mass is to attend–to be physically present and to be attentive, an older definition. There is no obligation to receive the Eucharist except for once a year at Easter-time (and this was instituted at a time when few ever received the Eucharist, altho they attended Mass). Thus, we know that the weekly obligation is not for the purpose of receiving the Eucharist, and indeed the Church teaches that the obligation is to worship God. Worship involves sacrifice, and as members of the Body of Christ (the Church), we attend Mass as a sacrifice–the Mass is the “re-membering” of Christ’ sacrificial suffering and death. We need to be physically present so that God is worshipped properly, and so that we fulfill part of our obligations in justice to God to worship Him.

No, the Church already has made it clear one must be physically present since the advent of the telephone.

Hopefully I have been able to clarify why one must be physically present to participate ij a sacrament 🙂
The definition of sacrament is not a point of argument. I do not see the logic in your attempt to add to this simple definition. Where does it say, in the bible, anything about the need to be physically present? Since both parties are physically on earth, they are physically present. You are making an issue of distance. As mentioned before, people stuck outside of church still fulfill the obligation and you call mass a sacrament. They are not in the same room and maybe not the same building. Does a person have to be in the same room, standing 5 feet or less? This seems like an arbitrary requirement to place on an infinite God who has full access to all of Earth. Christ can give grace and blessing to anyone at any time. Why would He not do that at the request of a priest? Do you really believe Jesus would think, well I would have forgiven that sin over Skype if only they were in the same room? Of course we must be present to receive the Eucharist, but there are others where it is not so clear to me most notably reconciliation, as bought up by others.

Mass is absolutely not a sacrament and this is not an issue to argue either. It is classically called a sacrifice. newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-mass-is-sacrifice-and-why-so-many.html

Google 7 sacraments and if you find the mass, get back to us. The sacrament is Eucharist when as you say, Christ is present. There are clear references in the Bible for each and every sacrament. Can you show one bible quote where this depends on the amount of distance between people or what physically present means?

Even if we accept the need to be physically present for a sacrament, how does this apply to mass when mass is clearly not a sacrament? Is it not possible that an online based parish could be more vibrant and full of grace than a parish full of people showing up on Sunday and barely paying attention? With the dwindling number of priests and the still expanding numbers, these sort of choices may be all that exists for some regions of the world and maybe this country. We already have 2 parishes being serviced by the same team of priests in this area. How much further can they be stretched?

The pope himself just stressed the need for new thinking in the Church. Again I ask, if we insist on following laws because they have always been the laws, then how are we better than the Pharisees?
 
The information you stated above is shown below, and I quote…

"Mass is absolutely not a sacrament and this is not an issue to argue either. It is classically called a sacrifice. newtheologicalmovement.blogsp…y-so-many.html

Google 7 sacraments and if you find the mass, get back to us."

I decided to take you up on your offer. I just Googled the contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and, I’m getting back with you (and everyone else).

In the chapters on the Seven Sacraments, in the section on the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Article 3 Section II, which is entitled “What is this Sacrament called?”, the following are given as names for the Sacrament of the Eucharist:

The Lord’s Supper
The Memorial of the Lord’s Passion and Resurrection
The Holy Sacrifice
The Holy and Divine Liturgy
Holy Communion
Holy Mass

It is clear that when the Catechism of the Catholic Church is defining and naming the Sacrament of the Eucharist, it is the LITURGY itself, i.e., the Holy Mass, that is the sacrament.

At first, your denial that the Holy Mass is a Sacrament made me angry. Then, I grew very sad for you.
 
The answer is no, all the way around. If one is unable to attend Mass because of illness, there is no obligation. One can watch Mass or not.

I think the first post makes an excellent point though about honoring the Sabbath. In absence of a Sunday obligation, for various reasons, the Sabbath should still be honored to the extent circumstances permit.
 
The information you stated above is shown below, and I quote…

"Mass is absolutely not a sacrament and this is not an issue to argue either. It is classically called a sacrifice. newtheologicalmovement.blogsp…y-so-many.html

Google 7 sacraments and if you find the mass, get back to us."

I decided to take you up on your offer. I just Googled the contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and, I’m getting back with you (and everyone else).

In the chapters on the Seven Sacraments, in the section on the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Article 3 Section II, which is entitled “What is this Sacrament called?”, the following are given as names for the Sacrament of the Eucharist:

The Lord’s Supper
The Memorial of the Lord’s Passion and Resurrection
The Holy Sacrifice
The Holy and Divine Liturgy
Holy Communion
Holy Mass

It is clear that when the Catechism of the Catholic Church is defining and naming the Sacrament of the Eucharist, it is the LITURGY itself, i.e., the Holy Mass, that is the sacrament.

At first, your denial that the Holy Mass is a Sacrament made me angry. Then, I grew very sad for you.
Again with the attitude. I don’t need anyone to feel sorry or sad for me for knowing the basic tenets of my church. If I am wrong about something, it is nothing to cry about. As one very wise priest says, “Jesus started a church, he did not write a bible”. Even more so for a catechism. This started as a simple discussion on the obligation to attend mass. It is not intended as a contest of who wants to go to mass the most or who loves mass the most. I hope all Catholics take going to mass seriously and love it for the sacrifice Christ gave for us to be able to benefit. I am not here to question anyone’s sincerity or love of Christ’s church and I was expecting the same in return.

If mass was the sacrament, then there would be no need for 1st Communion. Children before 1st communion can attend mass but not receive THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST. If this is not true. I wasted many hours in Catechism and several extremely smart priests were very very wrong.

I do not feel that the mass is any less important because it is not one of the official 7 sacraments. That is just the way it is. The reference to the Holy Mass is like the last definition in the dictionary. It can be used but is rarely considered the real definition. I was taught Mass prepares us to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist. First by having venial sins forgiven then the readings to put us in the right frame of mind for that time of year, etc.

Does anyone really believe that you have received the sacrament of the Eucharist without receiving the body of Christ in communion??? I certainly do not. The Catechism is very clear about the central role of the bread and wine.

I will give a link for my reference to the Catechism.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm

III. THE EUCHARIST IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION

The signs of bread and wine

1333 At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ’s Body and Blood. Faithful to the Lord’s command the Church continues to do, in his memory and until his glorious return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: “He took bread. . . .” “He took the cup filled with wine. . . .” The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ; they continue also to signify the goodness of creation. Thus in the Offertory we give thanks to the Creator for bread and wine,154 fruit of the “work of human hands,” but above all as “fruit of the earth” and “of the vine” - gifts of the Creator. The Church sees in the gesture of the king-priest Melchizedek, who “brought out bread and wine,” a prefiguring of her own offering.155

I am happy someone took up my challenge to google the sacraments, but a review of the Catechism at the Vatican site only confirms my long taught belief that receiving the Eucharist is the sacrament.
 
The definition of sacrament is not a point of argument. I do not see the logic in your attempt to add to this simple definition. Where does it say, in the bible, anything about the need to be physically present? Since both parties are physically on earth, they are physically present. You are making an issue of distance. As mentioned before, people stuck outside of church still fulfill the obligation and you call mass a sacrament. They are not in the same room and maybe not the same building. Does a person have to be in the same room, standing 5 feet or less? This seems like an arbitrary requirement to place on an infinite God who has full access to all of Earth. Christ can give grace and blessing to anyone at any time. Why would He not do that at the request of a priest? Do you really believe Jesus would think, well I would have forgiven that sin over Skype if only they were in the same room? Of course we must be present to receive the Eucharist, but there are others where it is not so clear to me most notably reconciliation, as bought up by others.

Mass is absolutely not a sacrament and this is not an issue to argue either. It is classically called a sacrifice. newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-mass-is-sacrifice-and-why-so-many.html

Google 7 sacraments and if you find the mass, get back to us. The sacrament is Eucharist when as you say, Christ is present. There are clear references in the Bible for each and every sacrament. Can you show one bible quote where this depends on the amount of distance between people or what physically present means?

Even if we accept the need to be physically present for a sacrament, how does this apply to mass when mass is clearly not a sacrament? Is it not possible that an online based parish could be more vibrant and full of grace than a parish full of people showing up on Sunday and barely paying attention? With the dwindling number of priests and the still expanding numbers, these sort of choices may be all that exists for some regions of the world and maybe this country. We already have 2 parishes being serviced by the same team of priests in this area. How much further can they be stretched?

The pope himself just stressed the need for new thinking in the Church. Again I ask, if we insist on following laws because they have always been the laws, then how are we better than the Pharisees?
You are much too smart for me. I think I will bow out of this, I guess you can call this a conversation; well at any rate, I am done.

The original question, “does watching an internet Mass fullfill the obligation?” No. End of story.
 
Again with the attitude. I don’t need anyone to feel sorry or sad for me for knowing the basic tenets of my church. If I am wrong about something, it is nothing to cry about. As one very wise priest says, “Jesus started a church, he did not write a bible”. Even more so for a catechism. This started as a simple discussion on the obligation to attend mass. It is not intended as a contest of who wants to go to mass the most or who loves mass the most. I hope all Catholics take going to mass seriously and love it for the sacrifice Christ gave for us to be able to benefit. I am not here to question anyone’s sincerity or love of Christ’s church and I was expecting the same in return.

If mass was the sacrament, then there would be no need for 1st Communion. Children before 1st communion can attend mass but not receive THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST. If this is not true. I wasted many hours in Catechism and several extremely smart priests were very very wrong.

I do not feel that the mass is any less important because it is not one of the official 7 sacraments. That is just the way it is. The reference to the Holy Mass is like the last definition in the dictionary. It can be used but is rarely considered the real definition. I was taught Mass prepares us to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist. First by having venial sins forgiven then the readings to put us in the right frame of mind for that time of year, etc.

Does anyone really believe that you have received the sacrament of the Eucharist without receiving the body of Christ in communion??? I certainly do not. The Catechism is very clear about the central role of the bread and wine.

I will give a link for my reference to the Catechism.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm

III. THE EUCHARIST IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION

The signs of bread and wine

1333 At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ’s Body and Blood. Faithful to the Lord’s command the Church continues to do, in his memory and until his glorious return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: “He took bread. . . .” “He took the cup filled with wine. . . .” The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ; they continue also to signify the goodness of creation. Thus in the Offertory we give thanks to the Creator for bread and wine,154 fruit of the “work of human hands,” but above all as “fruit of the earth” and “of the vine” - gifts of the Creator. The Church sees in the gesture of the king-priest Melchizedek, who “brought out bread and wine,” a prefiguring of her own offering.155

I am happy someone took up my challenge to google the sacraments, but a review of the Catechism at the Vatican site only confirms my long taught belief that receiving the Eucharist is the sacrament.
While you were reviewing the Catechism at the Vatican site, you might have noticed that if you scrolled up one paragraph above the one you quoted, the items I quoted are right there on the same page in the Vatican catechism.

You quoted Item 1333. I quoted Items 1327 through 1332 on the very same page.

The point being that the various other names for the Sacrament of the Eucharist as defined by the Catechism at the Vatican are right there on the very same page that you quoted, and every single one of the other names for the Sacrament of the Eucharist refer to the liturgy (the Mass) by which the Body and Blood of Our Lord are confected.

If the Mass is not one of the seven Sacraments, why on earth did the Vatican write Items 1328 through 1332, giving us the various other names for the Sacrament of the Eucharist, and every single one of those entries refers to a name or title by which the Divine Liturgy, a.k.a., the Holy Mass, is known.

I guess the Vatican was just trying to confuse use when they penned Items 1328 through 1332.

I’m done.
 
For example, an indulgence can be earned by someone receiving a blessing of a crowd by the Holy a Father, even on TV
In this case, only one of the requirements of receiving the indulgence includes the witnessing of the blessing, be it via media or in person. Therefore, what’s really going on is that the pope is simply saying, “you don’t have to be here physically in person.” For an indulgence, that’s ok.
It might also be argued that our universal daily prayers through the daily mass or LOTH is questionable, unless all the faithful meet in one gigantic assembly at one time.
Although there are communal celebrations of the LotH, the normal way for most to pray the hours is alone. So, praying (alone) while the TV is on, doesn’t really change anything. It’s completely different than watching a Mass on TV!
Many in the church also content the word must be proclaimed, thus heard, therefore following along with paper or electronic text is somehow not proper. Again, context is not considered, because listening may have been a necessity prior to increases in literacy and availability of text, but it may not be today.
The argument I’ve heard made is that one should not exclusively read the readings and ignore the proclamation. Whether a person is literate or not is irrelevant; what’s at stake here is the difference between Scripture as proclaimed in the context of liturgy and Scripture as personally read.
The case could be made that it is a matter the intent and context of rules.
OK… what’s the case that you want to make, then? What’s the ‘intent’ of attending Mass that could allow for non-attendance? What’s the ‘context’ of the rules that fits your assertions?

Looking at canon law, I see a number of places where your assertions would fail to hold:

Canon 898 states, “[t]he Christian faithful are to hold the Most Holy Eucharist in highest honor, taking an active part in the celebration of the most august sacrifice.” How would you contextualize this canon to suggest that a person who simply views a Mass on TV is “taking an active part” in that Mass?

Canon 899 §2 states, “*n the eucharistic gathering the people of God are called together with the bishop or, under his authority, a presbyter presiding and acting in the person of Christ. All the faithful who are present, whether clerics or laity, unite together by participating in their own way according to the diversity of orders and liturgical functions.” How would you contextualize this canon to suggest that by watching TV, a person is truly “called together with the bishop or… a presbyter”? How would you suggest that a TV viewer is “unite[d] together” and is “present” at such a Mass? In the document The Church and the Internet, the Pontifical Council for Social Communications states, “Although the virtual reality of cyberspace cannot substitute for real interpersonal community, the incarnational reality of the sacraments and the liturgy, or the immediate and direct proclamation of the gospel, it can complement them” and again, “[v]irtual reality is no substitute for … shared worship in a flesh-and-blood human community. There are no sacraments on the Internet.”
Maybe in the future you may see a priest offering the sacrament of reconciliation over Skype or FaceTime!
That would take quite the modification to canon law!

Canon 964 asserts that “[t]he proper place to hear sacramental confessions is a church or oratory” and that “[c]onfessions are not to be heard outside a confessional without a just cause.” Remember – in 1983, when the current code of canon law was promulgated, we already had technologies that would allow for ‘virtual’ communication, and these weren’t considered valid media for the sacrament of reconciliation!

No, this has already been addressed by the Church, using less recent technology! Note that confession must be made auricularly – that is, spoken by the penitent and heard by the confessor directly! Also, the priest is obliged to keep the seal of the sacrament inviolate; you wouldn’t want to make a bet that your phone conversations and internet communications are completely private, would you? 😉
If the best argument we can present is because we’ve never done any of these things that way before, we may be missing a great opportunity to offer the many blessings of God via use of new venues created by Him!
No, I think that the argument as presented is that these sorts of things have been considered in other contexts and are already not permissible!*
 
Regarding confession via Skype or FaceTime or any other electronic means - the insurance of privacy of the sacrament is of the highest level. I think the current NSA scandal shows that electronic communication is not private. Even using a secure site (https, for example) does not guarantee the privacy necessary for confession.

Regarding “Mass” as a sacrament - just being present at the Mass, without receiving Communion, is not a sacrament. You may be standing/sitting/kneeling while others participate fully by receiving Communion but you have not received the sacrament if you have not received. Just as simply being present at a Baptism does not make you a participant in the sacrament - you must have the water poured over you - just being present at Mass does not make you a participant in the sacrament.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top