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maria_james
Guest
And what were your “crystal-clear reasons” ? :
- Status
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r.gonzales
Guest
Rachel Malloy:
as you mentioned, if demaria wants, he can make use of your site’s search forum, use google or whatever. but basically telling me to get out of here for using an arabic term or two in the course of discussing islam is a bit uncalled for - especially in the manner he did so.
with all due respect, to my knowledge, the term was first brought forward by a non-muslim using it to criticise islam - and it has been discussed on this forum more than once. the thread i linked to was just the latest. being that there are regulars on this forum who have witnessed such discussions, i don’t personally feel the need to restate and redefine such terms every single time they come up. as well, my reply was specifically directed at demaria, not at others on the board.
as you mentioned, if demaria wants, he can make use of your site’s search forum, use google or whatever. but basically telling me to get out of here for using an arabic term or two in the course of discussing islam is a bit uncalled for - especially in the manner he did so.
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maria_james
Guest
Now this was a good point from you.
But whatever was revealed earlier to Moses (PBUH), Jesus (PBUH) etc and mentioned in Holy Qur’an **is ** binding on us.
017.002: We gave unto Moses the Scripture, and We appointed it a guidance for the children of Israel, saying: Choose no guardian beside Me.
And Moses (PBUH) is one of the very important prophets of Islam. We believe in him and the scripture revealed to him that acted as a guidance to the children of Israel.
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Ching_PBUH
Guest
We are talking about religious tolerance remember? It has nothing to do with the millions of deaths by Hitler or the millions who died under Pol Pot and whether I am sympathetic to them. Hitler just cannot be compared … OMG why are we going in circles? Go read my post again, the keyword is “Allahu Akhbarrrr” and " **Alleluia, Praise the Lord ** "
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Ching_PBUH
Guest
Thanks! I feel elated … hihihihih…
Now this was a good point from you
The verse actually is a reinforcement of the “kill humanity” verse, i.e that the verse is in the Scripture. The above verse is nothing more than a statement from allah that he gave unto Moses the Scripture! (In fact Allah is wrong here by saying he GAVE the Scripture … YHWH spoke, men remembered it and wrote it … but this could be another topic
)Where does it say to muslims that killing one man is like killing humanity?
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r.gonzales
Guest
since this verse has only been quoted and cited in isolation, let’s take a look at the verses before it just so the context of the verse can been seen by others.
Allah says: and recite to them the news of the two sons of adam in truth, when each offerred a sacrifice and it was accepted from one of them and it was not accepted from the other he (the one whose sacrifice wasn’t accepted) said, “i will certainly kill you.” he said, “surely, Allah accepts from the pious ones. certainly if you extend your hand to me in order to kill me, i will not extend my hand to you in order to kill you. surely, i fear Allah, Lord of the worlds. surely, i would have that you return with my sin and your sin and be from the companions of the fire. and that is the reward of the oppressors.” so his soul made the killing of his brother easy for him and he killed him and became one of the losers. then Allah sent a crow searching the earth to show him how to conceal the shame of his brother. he (the murderer) said, “o woe to me! i am unable to be like this crow and conceal the shame of my brother?” so he became one of the regretful ones. and due to that, We ordained for the children of israel that whoever killed a soul without a soul or a corruption on the earth, then it would be as if he killed all of the people and whoever left it to live, it would be as if he left all of the people to live. and surely Our messengers have come to them with clear evidences, then after that surely many of them were certainly excessive in the earth." (5:27-32)
as for the explanation of the specific verse, it can be found here in english: tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13723
you’d think that the fact that it is mentioned in the Quran would be enough to answer this…
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Ching_PBUH
Guest
r.gonzalez,
Your lengthy contextual verse means just the same thing! … Allah bragged about GIVING the Scripture TO Moses (Jews) which contained the “killing humanity” verse because the sons of Adam killed his brother …
Where does it says in the Quran, " O ye who believe kill not a man, for if you do you are killing humanity! "
Stop bragging about the verse not meant for you! I would have believed if YOUR “HOLY” Prophet obeyed that 101%
You, like maria-james is going in circles !!! Won’t fall for your rantings anymore!
Adieu … sayonara…
Your lengthy contextual verse means just the same thing! … Allah bragged about GIVING the Scripture TO Moses (Jews) which contained the “killing humanity” verse because the sons of Adam killed his brother …
Where does it says in the Quran, " O ye who believe kill not a man, for if you do you are killing humanity! "
Stop bragging about the verse not meant for you! I would have believed if YOUR “HOLY” Prophet obeyed that 101%
You, like maria-james is going in circles !!! Won’t fall for your rantings anymore!
Adieu … sayonara…
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
5:32 is for the Children of Israel.
Just because it is in the Quran doesn’t mean it applies to Muslims. Most translations of 5:32 places the commandment in the past tense - thus it was only for Jews, not Muslims.
Just because it is in the Quran doesn’t mean it applies to Muslims. Most translations of 5:32 places the commandment in the past tense - thus it was only for Jews, not Muslims.
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De_Maria
Guest
Yes, which would you prefer, the Al-Qaeda, a Muslim sect relying on Muslim teaching, removal of every religious article in Afghanistan.
The Saudis refusal to admit Bibles into their country.
The enslavement of Christians and nonMuslims to this day in some Muslim countries.
Or do you want quotes from current Muslims,
,For example, in a weekly sermon in April 2002, Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world, called the Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs. …
memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01102
All these behaviors are based on Quranic teaching.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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De_Maria
Guest
compare the Catholic teaching on nonCatholics to the Muslim teaching on nonMuslims:
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created…
“for the Unbelievers are open enemies to you.” 4:101
I’ve visited Islamic forums before, only to be gagged. There is far more freedom of discussion in Catholic forums than on any other religious forum on the internet. I guarantee, if you were a Catholic on an Islamic fourm right now, you’d already been gagged and expelled.
Why read Muslim propaganda the images on the news from Islamic countries are far easier to see. Women are humiliated in many Islamic countries.
“two men should witness, but if not two men, then one man, and two women so that if one of the two women should err, the other will remind her.” (Sura 2:282)
Apparently one man is worth two women in Islamic court.
[Muhammad said]: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell…Sahih Muslim, Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, tr., Number 142.
Apparently Mohammed thought women would inhabit the bulk of hell.
These are not versions of the Bible which you are referring to, but religions. It is true that many people refuse to believe the Truth revealed by God and passed on by His Church, the Catholic Church. You can number Muslims amongst them.
Example of a Catholic teaching which Islam refuses to believe:
“They say the Merciful has taken to Himself a son—ye have brought a monstrous thing! The heavens well-nigh burst asunder thereat, and the earth is riven and the mountains fall down broken, that they attribute to the Merciful a son! But it becomes not the Merciful to take to Himself a son.”—Surah Miriam, vs. 91-93.
And Mohammed didn’t even understand the Trinity. There is no major Christian religion which adores Mary as God. The Holy Trinity has always been the Father, Son and Holy Spirit:
Surah (5:116): "And when God said, O Jesus, son of Mary! Is it thou who didst say to men, take me and my mother for two gods beside God
Very easily. You consider the Quran to be God’s Word and you have many versions of the Quran, Pichthall, Shakir, Yusuf Alli. You have versions in English, Spanish, Arabic etc. etc.
I know that the words “True Islam” is a contradiction in terms. Because very little is true in Islamic teaching.
Yes, but they all believe in the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ. And in the 33,000 Christian denominatiions there remains only one Catholic Church that has existed for those 2000 years.
The several divisions of Islam are simply people with Qurans in their hand. they have no central authority comparable to the Catholic Church. That is why no peace can be achieved with so called fundamentalist Muslims, they have no leader. They are operating on their own beliefs and translating the Quran the way they want to. That is why your preaching that Islam is a religion of peace falls on deaf ears with us. You need to preach that message to your own people who are killing and subjugating so many in the Middle East and in Indonesia.
**
**
Yeah! Read the Bible and study it according to Catholic teaching.
TEXT DELETED
Sincerely,
De Maria
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Ching_PBUH
Guest
De Maria:
And may I add :
the burning /destruction of chapels/cathedrals in Indonesia
the reprimanding of kuffars eating infront of fasting muslims during Ramadan
the ruling/fatwa that all non-muslims teaching materials, books, phamplets, invitations MUST include the clause, " For non-Muslims only "
the refusal to shake hands with non-muslims (non-muslims are filths)
in muslim countries no other religion can use the tv’s, lest muslims be swayed (how fragile or gullible can muslims be?)
Despite all these evidence muslims on this thread are saying Islam is a tolerant religion. How else can we tell yah?
Muslims worldwide MUST buck up and change their image or risk further aggravations to the already-bad public image. Religion is like an organisation. It is indeed an organisation. To see or know what others think of us, we ask for comments or feedbacks from clients and public. We encourage them to complain…
If the Quran is indeed very tolerant, then muslims are the ones who err and something must be done about them rather than sweeping them under the carpet and saying, “This is not true Islam!” The problem is not going to dissappear by living with them and letting muslims who errs get away with intolerance!
Have we seen any muslim court reprimanding muslims for belittling non-muslims? What are the authorities doing to cathedral bombers in Indonesia? Are muslims willing to admit their mistakes?
Didn’t the Church said “Sorry” for the Crusades? Where is the other “Sorry”
When will the world see that elusive true Islam?
Right on DM!
And may I add :
the burning /destruction of chapels/cathedrals in Indonesia
the reprimanding of kuffars eating infront of fasting muslims during Ramadan
the ruling/fatwa that all non-muslims teaching materials, books, phamplets, invitations MUST include the clause, " For non-Muslims only "
the refusal to shake hands with non-muslims (non-muslims are filths)
in muslim countries no other religion can use the tv’s, lest muslims be swayed (how fragile or gullible can muslims be?)
Despite all these evidence muslims on this thread are saying Islam is a tolerant religion. How else can we tell yah?
Muslims worldwide MUST buck up and change their image or risk further aggravations to the already-bad public image. Religion is like an organisation. It is indeed an organisation. To see or know what others think of us, we ask for comments or feedbacks from clients and public. We encourage them to complain…
If the Quran is indeed very tolerant, then muslims are the ones who err and something must be done about them rather than sweeping them under the carpet and saying, “This is not true Islam!” The problem is not going to dissappear by living with them and letting muslims who errs get away with intolerance!
Have we seen any muslim court reprimanding muslims for belittling non-muslims? What are the authorities doing to cathedral bombers in Indonesia? Are muslims willing to admit their mistakes?
Didn’t the Church said “Sorry” for the Crusades? Where is the other “Sorry”
When will the world see that elusive true Islam?
J
janG
Guest
Rodrigo,
Have you read your own tafsir??? Every single explanation is qualified by a statement that it applies only to a life Allah has forbidden you from killing and that is defined as a believing Muslim. The Islamic definition of innocent life is ONLY Muslims. It does not include Jews and Christians or “heretic” Muslims or the billions of others who aren’t submitted to your specific beliefs. Oh, you might invite to Islam first, but if that fails, you are to use the sword to bring the world into submission. THAT is Mohammed’s real teaching and the reality of Islam. Take your blinders off and see what your prophet really taught! Islam does not value any life except a Muslim life.
I notice the Koran does not include the 10 Commandments…I guess God re-wrote those too and “Thou shalt not kill” became “Thou shalt not kill Muslims, but everybody else is fair game.”
Have you read your own tafsir??? Every single explanation is qualified by a statement that it applies only to a life Allah has forbidden you from killing and that is defined as a believing Muslim. The Islamic definition of innocent life is ONLY Muslims. It does not include Jews and Christians or “heretic” Muslims or the billions of others who aren’t submitted to your specific beliefs. Oh, you might invite to Islam first, but if that fails, you are to use the sword to bring the world into submission. THAT is Mohammed’s real teaching and the reality of Islam. Take your blinders off and see what your prophet really taught! Islam does not value any life except a Muslim life.
I notice the Koran does not include the 10 Commandments…I guess God re-wrote those too and “Thou shalt not kill” became “Thou shalt not kill Muslims, but everybody else is fair game.”
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Ching_PBUH
Guest
Beautiful Mariiiiia, forgot to address this one! Heheheh…
"Why quoteth thee ONLY 1 instance of Jesus asking people to ‘hide the truth’ ? "
There are more than just one!
“Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is giving”
“Do not let people know you are fasting. Wipe your lips with oil so people do not know …”
“And when you pray, go into your room … so that people do not know you are praying”
After healing, Jesus commanded the healed man: “Go, your sins are forgiven! Do not tell anyone what happened”
Jesus taught by parables and examples … He commanded his Disciples to be meek and lowly. Should he go against His own teaching, say, by letting His Disciples tell the world that He was “The Christ of God” ? In the case of Luke 9:18, not only that His time was not up, it was unlike of Him to brag even as a child doing the wine miracle!
In His Name !
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Ching_PBUH
Guest
janG … psssst…psst… shhhh… yuh are barking at the wrong tree!
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cute2904
Guest
janG, I’m sure Rodrigo read the tafseers pretty good. Unless you misunderstood what Rodrigo mean here. Please read all his posts on this forum.
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r.gonzales
Guest
De Maria said:
nice selective clipping of the verse
.Allah says: if you travel on the earth then it is not a sin for you to shorten the prayer if you fear that those who disbelieved may put you to tribulation, surely, the disbelievers are a clear enemy for you.
in tafseer al-muyassar it states, “if you travel - o believers - in Allah’s earth, then there is no harm, nor sin upon you in shortening the prayer if you fear the unbelievers’ enmity towards you in the situation of prayer. and the majority of the muslims’ journeys in the beginning of islam were dangerous. shortening is a concession during travel in the situation of safety or fear. surely, the unbelievers are open in their enmity for you, so beware of them.”
so, the verse is referring to specific situations relating to the circumstances surrounding the revelation of this verse - a time during the begining of islam after the migration to madeenah when the enemies of islam were warring against the muslims.
ibn katheer states in his explanation of this verse:
De Maria:
these things have been discussed already elsewhere in the forum and have been explained sufficiently.
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De_Maria
Guest
If Muslims only believed in hiding the truth, then there would be no sin. No man is obligated unless he has obligated himself by vow or oath, to tell the whole truth especially when it brings him evil which he does not deserve.
But Muslims believe in outright lying when:
- In times of war.
- When they believe they are justified.
- When selecting the lesser of two evils
- When reconciling peoples at war
- To their spouses
Sincerely,
De Maria
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De_Maria
Guest
It is very simple, the words are clear. Islam considers nonMuslims to be enemies and they respond that way. Your attempts to reduce Islam to a religion of peace are futile, not because of us, but because of your brethren whom you can’t control and to whom you should be preaching this Islam of peace idea.nice selective clipping of the verse
Allah says: if you travel on the earth then it is not a sin for you to shorten the prayer if you fear that those who disbelieved may put you to tribulation, surely, the disbelievers are a clear enemy for you.
in tafseer al-muyassar it states, “if you travel - o believers - in Allah’s earth, then there is no harm, nor sin upon you in shortening the prayer if you fear the unbelievers’ enmity towards you in the situation of prayer. and the majority of the muslims’ journeys in the beginning of islam were dangerous. shortening is a concession during travel in the situation of safety or fear. surely, the unbelievers are open in their enmity for you, so beware of them.”
so, the verse is referring to specific situations relating to the circumstances surrounding the revelation of this verse - a time during the begining of islam after the migration to madeenah when the enemies of islam were warring against the muslims.
ibn katheer states in his explanation of this verse:
these things have been discussed already elsewhere in the forum and have been explained sufficiently.
Yeah, I’ve discussed these issues with you as well. You expect your explanations to be sufficient for us, yet your fellow Muslims in Iraq, Iran etc. etc. continue to act contrary to your words. Your explanations appear to be a form of Al-Taqiyya since you say one thing yet Muslims do another.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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Rachel_Malloy
Guest
It seems this discussion has run it’s course. Thank you for all who have participated.
God bless you.
God bless you.
- Status