Does Islam make sense?

[MartinJordan]

Martin please, reduce the sensitivity

I’m sincerely trying to understand FULLY what your meaning is from your post above, and the meaning behind the word holiness is critical to that. I say my thank you’d and my smiley faces to try to communicate my sincerity. Why can’t I ask you in depth questions without you feeling insulted?

Im sure you can research it yourself Servant. No need to pick my mind. I follow my Faith along with the Church.

MJ

 

[daler]

…Shakespeare would be deified - well, maybe there is a religion somewhere … ).

Your description of the Arabic letters seem… the basis of authenticity, more a teaching tool.

Thank you for pointing out that faith is more than logic…

I am not saying that Islam is wrong (only God can be the judge to that) but all I am saying is that Islam does not make sense from the perspective of the values I hold…

… if a Muslim decides that his/her values is at variance with Islam, he/she can choose to leave, legally freely and without recriminations from the community,…

At the end of the day, as a Bahai, your acceptance of Islam, even if there, is still limited. I would like to ask any Muslims out there whether what I have posted is factually correct in what Muslims believe. So far, I have not met any, even if they do not like the language I have used.

Jim,
. Thank you for the reply and your thoughts. Also the friendly tone. There is a level of articulation within the Arabic language which, to my understanding, is well beyond most others. This does two things. It presents real challenges for translators to “get it right”, creating gross misunderstandings when they get it wrong. The other is it provides something of an exquisite medium for communication, and goes far beyond the “beauty” of the language itself.

. To clarify, I do not speak Arabic, but am able to gain enough appreciation from what I’ve gleaned from various sources over the past thirty years to recognize that complexities, subtleties, and nuances are lost on many of those who have “translated” the Quran into English. This is not only apparent in the variations of the words themselves, but even the very foundation of ideas and understanding of fundamental concepts expressed, which leave the recipient with notions far short of whatever truths are contained within such an important Book.

. I can appreciate what you say about “teaching tools”, and agree that such things as are misconstrued for convenience have no authentic place at any respectable table. People can formulate or concoct hindsight patterns to fit their agenda all too easily, and do so. To remain objective is a discipline which requires constant self-restraint and awareness of the temptations involved when human emotions are at work.

. For me, coming from a far more scientific reliance inherent in my upbringing, the most challenging issue has always been to credit prophetic utterances realistically, whether those pointing to Christ from the Old Testament, or to Muhammad from the Old and New, as well as to the Bab and Baha’u’llah. I was a dedicated skeptic, convinced that it was literally impossible that fore-knowledge of things to come could be known or expressed by men or Prophets. It made no scientific sense to me. “That is illogical, Captain.” as Spock would say…

. I would fully agree that most unfortunately the principal of coercion to believe within Islam remains a bastard child of hypocrisy of an otherwise sound principal: “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” Well, that went out the window in a hurry. What they don’t seem to understand is that it created a flock of parrots and puppets, greatly undermining the very fruits which lie potentially within the heart of belief of every capable soul.

. This in turn begets a paranoid class of leaders so obsessed with control and domination that the end result is what is rightfully despised by onlookers who would otherwise probably find much to appreciate. The loss of free will “to believe, or not to believe… that is the question” is a Shakespearian parallel with profound implications. This is, of course, applicable to all systems of religious expression.

. The independent investigation of truth, which is one of the basic tenants of the Baha’is, requires that every soul accepts the burden of responsibility of its approach to God, while at the same time, condemns blind imitation of ancestral beliefs. In short, I cannot inherit my father’s religion or else it is not mine.

. When the “values” of a religion become tainted by cultural practices which do not originate from the Revelation of God itself, their adoption is invalid, and tantamount to reverting to a form of idol worship (of those values or their icons). Such is child marriage, etc, which is being perpetuated from myths regarding the age of Ayesha and accepted by unthinking elders ever since, and used to justify hideous forms of child abuse. Any rational person would reject such values and protest against their adoption and perpetuation.

. I would also like to see a Muslim response to some of these issues. In particular, of the high standard of: “Let there be no compulsion…”

.

 

[Richard_Feynman]

It has to make sense to some degree or people wouldn’t follow it… Just my two cents.

 

[tonyfish58]

It has to make sense to some degree or people wouldn’t follow it… Just my two cents.

Your two cents are full of wisdom

God bless and regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

It has to make sense to some degree or people wouldn’t follow it… Just my two cents.

Correct. That goes without saying imo. However Dr. M seems to believe Muslims aren’t following the “true teachings”. What may be true to him won’t be for another Muslim no?

We have some who say Muslims don’t even understand their own facts about Jesus the Muslim who was crucified. :mmm:

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

It has to make sense to some degree or people wouldn’t follow it… Just my two cents.

Correct. That goes without saying imo. However Dr. M seems to believe Muslims aren’t following the “true teachings”. What may be true to him won’t be for another Muslim no?

We have some who say Muslims don’t even understand their own facts about Jesus the Muslim who was crucified.

MJ

 

[jimkhong]

Jim,
. Thank you for the reply and your thoughts. Also the friendly tone. There is a level of articulation within the Arabic language which, to my understanding, is well beyond most others. This does two things. It presents real challenges for translators to “get it right”, creating gross misunderstandings when they get it wrong. The other is it provides something of an exquisite medium for communication, and goes far beyond the “beauty” of the language itself.

You are most welcomed, daler. I think the primary need to keep the language of the Quran to Arabic is not due to the challenges of translation although that is often given as a secondary reason (such a reason would leave Islam as a religion that has difficulties with conducting their faith education in anything other than the mother language of their religion when all other religions - including your own - seem to have successfully transmitted its religious scripures and teachings in other languages). The reason is that since God wrote his revelation in Arabic, one cannot in any way change it.

That is why when pre-Uthmanic Quranic manuscripts were discovered some time ago (very few actually survived being burned when the Quranic scripts were standardised), they differ from the Uthmanic scipts used today in extremely minor ways - order of words and punctuations.

This propensity to preserve the God’s revelation down to the last detail rather than understanding the reason why the injunctions were instituted in the first place leads Islam to perpetually live in the 7th century (In this sense, Islam is more in the Pharisiac tradition of 613 commendments rather than a Jesus tradition of reducing all commandments to one - to love one another). Even though practices and interpretations are sometimes updated for contemporary living, the fundamental structure of the laws remain and cannot be changed. Much of the debates today I hear are similar to Orthodox Jews devising things like Sabbath elevators to keep within laws written three millenia ago.

The question is whether Islam is able to have a tradition similar to Progressive Jews, who were able to differntiate the cultural from divine requirements in the Mosaic Law. I do believe much of the Quranic injunctions are cultural in nature but I do not see any sign that even the Tunisian Muslims (more progressive than most) can make this break any time soon. Would you think for instance that if science can today guarantee pigs with no worms, Muslims will start eating pork? Maybe the Indonesians but those who do eat pork do not realise that eating pork is not Islamic.

For me, coming from a far more scientific reliance inherent in my upbringing, the most challenging issue has always been to credit prophetic utterances realistically, whether those pointing to Christ from the Old Testament, or to Muhammad from the Old and New, as well as to the Bab and Baha’u’llah. I was a dedicated skeptic, convinced that it was literally impossible that fore-knowledge of things to come could be known or expressed by men or Prophets. It made no scientific sense to me. “That is illogical, Captain.” as Spock would say…

‘was’ a dedicated skeptic? No longer?

This in turn begets a paranoid class of leaders so obsessed with control and domination that the end result is what is rightfully despised by onlookers who would otherwise probably find much to appreciate. The loss of free will “to believe, or not to believe… that is the question” is a Shakespearian parallel with profound implications. This is, of course, applicable to all systems of religious expression.

I would also like to see a Muslim response to some of these issues. In particular, of the high standard of: “Let there be no compulsion…”

That is the weakness of any theocracy - be it Catholic, or a shamanic village, or a Jim Jones cult or an Ummayid caliphate. In the end, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Do you imagine that Iranian clerics hold on power is religious in nature and not political? Therefore in a theocracy, it rapidly resist personal conscience as having an alternative to its own interpretation of God’s revelation would become a challenge to its monopoly of power.

I see the first step towards to emancipation of Muslims from the straitsjacket of the current interpretation of their faith is the separate of mosque and state and a tolerance of questionning & plurality of thought. I pray for it but I can’t see it anytime soon.

So, like communism which denies its people the right to free thought, Islam is brittle until it opens to its faithful the fullness of a continuing and personal direct revelation of God.

 

[dronald]

You are most welcomed, daler. I think the primary need to keep the language of the Quran to Arabic is not due to the challenges of translation although that is often given as a secondary reason (such a reason would leave Islam as a religion that has difficulties with conducting their faith education in anything other than the mother language of their religion when all other religions - including your own - seem to have successfully transmitted its religious scripures and teachings in other languages). The reason is that since God wrote his revelation in Arabic, one cannot in any way change it.

That is why when pre-Uthmanic Quranic manuscripts were discovered some time ago (very few actually survived being burned when the Quranic scripts were standardised), they differ from the Uthmanic scipts used today in extremely minor ways - order of words and punctuations.

This propensity to preserve the God’s revelation down to the last detail rather than understanding the reason why the injunctions were instituted in the first place leads Islam to perpetually live in the 7th century (In this sense, Islam is more in the Pharisiac tradition of 613 commendments rather than a Jesus tradition of reducing all commandments to one - to love one another). Even though practices and interpretations are sometimes updated for contemporary living, the fundamental structure of the laws remain and cannot be changed. Much of the debates today I hear are similar to Orthodox Jews devising things like Sabbath elevators to keep within laws written three millenia ago.

The question is whether Islam is able to have a tradition similar to Progressive Jews, who were able to differntiate the cultural from divine requirements in the Mosaic Law. I do believe much of the Quranic injunctions are cultural in nature but I do not see any sign that even the Tunisian Muslims (more progressive than most) can make this break any time soon. Would you think for instance that if science can today guarantee pigs with no worms, Muslims will start eating pork? Maybe the Indonesians but those who do eat pork do not realise that eating pork is not Islamic.

‘was’ a dedicated skeptic? No longer?

That is the weakness of any theocracy - be it Catholic, or a shamanic village, or a Jim Jones cult or an Ummayid caliphate. In the end, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Do you imagine that Iranian clerics hold on power is religious in nature and not political? Therefore in a theocracy, it rapidly resist personal conscience as having an alternative to its own interpretation of God’s revelation would become a challenge to its monopoly of power.

I see the first step towards to emancipation of Muslims from the straitsjacket of the current interpretation of their faith is the separate of mosque and state and a tolerance of questionning & plurality of thought. I pray for it but I can’t see it anytime soon.

So, like communism which denies its people the right to free thought, Islam is brittle until it opens to its faithful the fullness of a continuing and personal direct revelation of God.

The pre-uthman Qurans you speak of; where are they preserved now? I thought all copies were burnt and none remain.

What sort of textual variants are found within and do Muslims acknowledge their existence? I know the Qur’an burning is often overlooked by Muslims and the belief that the Qur’an has been perfectly preserved is used regardless of this truth.

 

[Matthew_Light]

To set our minds on things above. Not on passing things.

MJ

This is part of the Muslim obligatory prayer, which is prayed five times per day. Every faithful Muslim is supposed to think about and say this prayer in the hours before dawn, in the morning, after noon, before sunset, and at the onset of night.

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,
Praise be to God, Lord of All the Worlds!
The Compassionate, the Merciful,
Lord of the Day of Judgment.
Thee alone do we worship, Thee alone do we seek for help!
Show us the straight path,
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the path of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

 

[jimkhong]

The pre-uthman Qurans you speak of; where are they preserved now? I thought all copies were burnt and none remain.

What sort of textual variants are found within and do Muslims acknowledge their existence? I know the Qur’an burning is often overlooked by Muslims and the belief that the Qur’an has been perfectly preserved is used regardless of this truth.

This was the San’aa manuscripts. They were found in a Yemen mosque in 1970s and were passed to a Western scholar (I believe German) to be studied (the mosque got into trouble for that). They were actually contained in a single parchment where the pre-Uthmanic script was erased and over-written by the Uthmanic script - which is why they needed Western expertise to restore.

The differences are not major - a few missing words, different words, different word order. I believe the answeringislam.org website has a few examples of differences. But minor differences is a huge difference from having no differences at all.

Most Muslim scholars today are aware of the history of the Quran - that it was compiled from those who knew Mohammad and to whom Mohammad had recited what he was told by the angel Gabriel - Mohammad was reportedly illiterate. They do understand that it is only in the calipate of Uthman (the third caliph) that the many various compilations were standardised into the Quran we have today. However, most of the ordinary Muslims continue to believe in the myth that the Quran remains unchanged from the earliest days - which was why the restoration project became controversial.

 

[dronald]

This was the San’aa manuscripts. They were found in a Yemen mosque in 1970s and were passed to a Western scholar (I believe German) to be studied (the mosque got into trouble for that). They were actually contained in a single parchment where the pre-Uthmanic script was erased and over-written by the Uthmanic script - which is why they needed Western expertise to restore.

The differences are not major - a few missing words, different words, different word order. I believe the answeringislam.org website has a few examples of differences. But minor differences is a huge difference from having no differences at all.

Most Muslim scholars today are aware of the history of the Quran - that it was compiled from those who knew Mohammad and to whom Mohammad had recited what he was told by the angel Gabriel - Mohammad was reportedly illiterate. They do understand that it is only in the calipate of Uthman (the third caliph) that the many various compilations were standardised into the Quran we have today. However, most of the ordinary Muslims continue to believe in the myth that the Quran remains unchanged from the earliest days - which was why the restoration project became controversial.

I looked it up and it was a fascinating read. Thank you.

 

[MartinJordan]

This is part of the Muslim obligatory prayer, which is prayed five times per day. Every faithful Muslim is supposed to think about and say this prayer in the hours before dawn, in the morning, after noon, before sunset, and at the onset of night.

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,
Praise be to God, Lord of All the Worlds!
The Compassionate, the Merciful,
Lord of the Day of Judgment.
Thee alone do we worship, Thee alone do we seek for help!
Show us the straight path,
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the path of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

Then Christianity should work very well for faithful Muslims. Already the promise had been made through Christ Jesus. Because Jesus already commanded one must seek FIRST The Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.



MJ

 

[daler]

Jim,

. My understanding of certain aspects of punctuation and diacritical marks was that this was a necessity due to variances within Arabic speakers from one region to another. Kind of like someone from Brooklyn and New Orleans trying to agree on what they are talking about. Thats why so many mid-westerners ascended in the news broadcast and night show host industries, etc. Tom Brokaw and Johnny Carson, everybody could understand… So to codify a verbal language where nuances were interpreted differently regionally required specific indicators. It would be most interesting to have the “burned texts” available.

. As the Baha’i view that the Succession of Ali was prevented in favor of the selfish desires of those ambitious for leadership brought about the first schism of Islam, which was directly forbidden in the Quran, the fulness of its potential was never reached, like choking a tree while yet a tender shoot. Nevertheless, it still bore some great fruit.

. Abdul Baha identifies the Beast of Revelation with the Ummayyads. Hence, it was pre-ordained that a Judas character(s) would be loosed to gain temporal control of an otherwise pure religion. Now, as you say, it has become brittle. Sadly, I suspect there is no cure.

. Yet this leads to a finer point. When God has given to His Prophets the knowledge of inevitable decay, is this not an indication that the life cycle of the various Trees of Revelation have their fixed time? Therefore, to be surprised at the petrification of institutions and their brittle control over the “territory” or their perceived spiritual domain should in fact allow us to measure where they are on a predictable timeline, as well as understand the bitterness of their current fruit, thought, and practices.

. The decay of the Jewish authorities by the time of Jesus is a parallel to what is happening within Islam. Following its peak, the spirit having been removed, there should be an observation that the sails no longer propel the ship because the wind is no longer in them. Hence, those in “control” of the ship move to suppress any one who points to the king having no clothing, and independent thought, expression of beliefs contrary to their authority, elevates their wrath.

. The same dementia has been observed from time to time in all the religions. As Baha’u’llah points out, “Most of the people have become afflicted with the same spiritual disease.”

. I have been to Israel a couple of times, and observed such things as you describe. It is truly stepping back in time while trying to keep your balance on a log that has not only rolled, but disappeared downstream. Now what is the expert log roller to do?

…" if science can today guarantee pigs with no worms, Muslims will start eating pork? Maybe the Indonesians but those who do eat pork do not realize that eating pork is not Islamic."

. My father ran a meat locker business, winning top prize for smoked ham in the nation, back in '65. Yes, it isn’t about the food, but what occurs when it is not properly cooked and preserved. This is where science and religion must come to agreement. True religion cannot be out of synch with proven scientific study, and should not discourage it, nor contest the facts it reveals.

‘was’ a dedicated skeptic? No longer?

. Ha Ha. Had to eat my microscope… ;’’-( But it is for the mind of the skeptic who says “Show me”, then peers through the glass of proofs and admits the evidence that comes full circle from Galileo’s time till now… The atheists of today have only to examine the evidence. Yet a suitable dialogue must allow them a healthy search not constrained by outmoded concepts of God instituted by an over-bearing Church or Mosque devoted to self-preservation.

“the weakness of any theocracy…”

. There is a new paradigm at work in this day when literacy is available to everyone, and the knowledge of the universe is accessible in infinite measure, relative to the past. The outmoded roles of a few literate magistrates in priestly clothing has diminished rapidly and is sustained only by those dedicated to tradition for tradition’s sake. It is time to re-evaluate, or at least accept the challenge to do so. Who is it that can lord over anyone anymore, and for what reason, and intention?

. Thank you for the extended dialogue.

God bless

 

[jimkhong]

I looked it up and it was a fascinating read. Thank you.

It is, isn’t it? What I find really fascinating is the huge gulf that exists between the actual minimal changes in the scripts with the myth that the Quran has never changed.

More and more, I find Muslims’ views unsupported by scholarship but their faith do not permit them to perform any exegetical and hermeunetical study of their scriptures. Which is why quite a few Muslims I know who studied the Quran from that angle with an open mind ended up as apostates, at least in part. The problem is that the inertia against a Muslim studying their scriptures from a scholarship point of view is incredibly inmovable. Most Muslims in love with the beauty of the language of the Quran do little more than memorise and recite the entire Quran. They leave it to their clerics for the interpretations. This outsourcing of their salvation is as highly lamentable as is widespread as the power structure of the clerics then become entrenched with their monopoly on interpretations, much like that shaman in a Stone Age village.

 

[dronald]

It is, isn’t it? What I find really fascinating is the huge gulf that exists between the actual minimal changes in the scripts with the myth that the Quran has never changed.

More and more, I find Muslims’ views unsupported by scholarship but their faith do not permit them to perform any exegetical and hermeunetical study of their scriptures. Which is why quite a few Muslims I know who studied the Quran from that angle with an open mind ended up as apostates, at least in part. The problem is that the inertia against a Muslim studying their scriptures from a scholarship point of view is incredibly inmovable. Most Muslims in love with the beauty of the language of the Quran do little more than memorise and recite the entire Quran. They leave it to their clerics for the interpretations. This outsourcing of their salvation is as highly lamentable as is widespread as the power structure of the clerics then become entrenched with their monopoly on interpretations, much like that shaman in a Stone Age village.

For Muslims, they certainly are living in a time where it’s not okay to criticize the Qur’an, which is ironic considering that if it is the truth then Muslims have nothing to worry about.

The first person who comes to mind is Daniel B Wallace and his work on Biblical textual criticism. No one is calling him an apostate or threatening to kill him for his scholarly work; in fact it’s quite the contrary. He is revered for his work amongst his team members by looking for the true words of Scripture using the documents and technology available.

We’re not afraid to scrutinize our texts because they’re from God. As long as we have God on our side we can try our best to disprove our books but all we’ll do is find greater proof.

 

[daler]

For Muslims, they certainly are living in a time where it’s not okay to criticize the Qur’an, which is ironic considering that if it is the truth then Muslims have nothing to worry about.

The first person who comes to mind is Daniel B Wallace and his work on Biblical textual criticism. No one is calling him an apostate or threatening to kill him for his scholarly work; in fact it’s quite the contrary. He is revered for his work amongst his team members by looking for the true words of Scripture using the documents and technology available.

We’re not afraid to scrutinize our texts because they’re from God. As long as we have God on our side we can try our best to disprove our books but all we’ll do is find greater proof.

dronald,
. You cast light upon an old problem which has reoccured in modern times. It is fair to say that in many places something quite parallel to the low water mark of Christianity in the time of the Inquisitions is happening. The same ruthless butchery, absolute treachery, and fanaticism governs in more than a few places as the pinnacle of sound reasoning and compassion have given way to the depths of wretchedness and intolerance.

. Yet it must not be overlooked when examples of dignified Muslims arise above the fray in exemplary service to humanity in the face of growing fanaticism in such places as Iran and Egypt, where decay and anarchy too often prevail. However, we cannot judge Islam according to current trends, as often as they appear in the news today, anymore than we can judge Christianity by the atrocities committed by the Ku Klux Klan or numerous Nazis so few years ago, all against a backdrop of great wars between Christian nations for countless centuries.

. That Muslim nations experience the same forces of darkness in their tendencies to revert to unholy behavior as Christians have in the past, even recent past, must be considered, to be fair in assessing the complexity of the problem. Do you agree?

Thank you and God bless
.

 

[dronald]

dronald,
. You cast light upon an old problem which has reoccured in modern times. It is fair to say that in many places something quite parallel to the low water mark of Christianity in the time of the Inquisitions is happening. The same ruthless butchery, absolute treachery, and fanaticism governs in more than a few places as the pinnacle of sound reasoning and compassion have given way to the depths of wretchedness and intolerance.

. Yet it must not be overlooked when examples of dignified Muslims arise above the fray in exemplary service to humanity in the face of growing fanaticism in such places as Iran and Egypt, where decay and anarchy too often prevail. However, we cannot judge Islam according to current trends, as often as they appear in the news today, anymore than we can judge Christianity by the atrocities committed by the Ku Klux Klan or numerous Nazis so few years ago, all against a backdrop of great wars between Christian nations for countless centuries.

. That Muslim nations experience the same forces of darkness in their tendencies to revert to unholy behavior as Christians have in the past, even recent past, must be considered, to be fair in assessing the complexity of the problem. Do you agree?

Thank you and God bless
.

Oh, I don’t disregard it. In fact I’m quite vocal about it here.

 

[jimkhong]

God bless, daler. I think we are in agreement on most points. There is still much about the Bahais for me to learn.

. My understanding of certain aspects of punctuation and diacritical marks was that this was a necessity due to variances within Arabic speakers from one region to another. Kind of like someone from Brooklyn and New Orleans trying to agree on what they are talking about. Thats why so many mid-westerners ascended in the news broadcast and night show host industries, etc. Tom Brokaw and Johnny Carson, everybody could understand… So to codify a verbal language where nuances were interpreted differently regionally required specific indicators. It would be most interesting to have the “burned texts” available.

Just a slight disagreement on the above point. I think variantions, etc are not allowed at all in the Quran. As a Muslim, you conform to the Quran, not the Quran conforming to you. So, you learn the Arabic of the 7th century so that you can understand the Quran, not re-write the Quran to suit your nuances of language. Whatever God have spoken, no man may change.

You can find a few examples of the differences in the Sanna manuscripts here. As you can see, the differences are rather minor but it make all the difference. A Muslim’s response to the Sanaa manuscripts do not say much here, but note that the scholars understanding of the history of the Quran is at odds with that of the umat, who believes that the Quran came down unchanged from heaven.

 

[jimkhong]

Oh, I don’t disregard it. In fact I’m quite vocal about it here.

Oh I can vouch for all that, having read some of his posts.

I think the point is also not so much whether atrocities are committed by religionists - there will always be evil in the world and evil can also go to church, temples, mosques, synagogues, etc.

The question is how the religious authorities respond to the atrocities committed by their co-religionists. I believe, that it is the exception where a Christian leader does not condemn an atrocity committed by a Christian. Catholic bishops are willing to excommunicate those who flagrantly commit atrocity (from St Ambrose’s excommunication of Emperor Theodosius in 395 to the Church stand against IRA terrorists).

In Islam, however, it is the rare Muslim cleric (I can only think of one Egyptian at teh Cairo University - God bless his courage) who was willing to stand up to teach that OBL was an apostate for his non-Muslim actions. Most of those willing to speak would make general statements about Muslim stand on warfare, non-harming of civilians but do not refer to OBL himself directly and then go on to condemn Islamophobia - not realising that his tribal response only add to it.

Would we ever see a Muslim cleric making a public apology for the wrongful actions of Muslims the way the Pope has done? I won’t be holding my breath.

 

[dronald]

Oh I can vouch for all that, having read some of his posts.

I think the point is also not so much whether atrocities are committed by religionists - there will always be evil in the world and evil can also go to church, temples, mosques, synagogues, etc.

The question is how the religious authorities respond to the atrocities committed by their co-religionists. I believe, that it is the exception where a Christian leader does not condemn an atrocity committed by a Christian. Catholic bishops are willing to excommunicate those who flagrantly commit atrocity (from St Ambrose’s excommunication of Emperor Theodosius in 395 to the Church stand against IRA terrorists).

In Islam, however, it is the rare Muslim cleric (I can only think of one Egyptian at teh Cairo University - God bless his courage) who was willing to stand up to teach that OBL was an apostate for his non-Muslim actions. Most of those willing to speak would make general statements about Muslim stand on warfare, non-harming of civilians but do not refer to OBL himself directly and then go on to condemn Islamophobia - not realising that his tribal response only add to it.

Would we ever see a Muslim cleric making a public apology for the wrongful actions of Muslims the way the Pope has done? I won’t be holding my breath.

You’re very correct here, but I don’t think that’s what he was saying. In the past it certainly was harder to speak out against the Pope and his actions and everything had to be approved by the Catholic Church.

In the middle ages people certainly were being burned at stakes for heresy and Popes weren’t always vocal enough to stop it if you know what I mean.

Now no Church can do that because as you said, they would be rightfully condemned by other Church’s.