Does Islam worship a "false god" or the same god differently?

[Mickey]

Please do not claim to read my heart.

I would never think of it.

I believe in the teachings of my Church and my Pope.

Of course you do.

Please do not judge my Pope

I would never do so.

and please do not judge me

I would not attempt it.

You have been telling me for quite awhile I do not understand what my Pope teaches.

I have seen many times…including on this thread (from your fellow Catholics)…that the CCC is not saying what you think it is.

The address that the Pope has given in 1985 to Muslims is quite clear.

Then why is it debated so vigorously?

I am only repeating what I have been taught from what as A Catholic I feel a very wonderful and reliable source.

And I have been taught contrary to what you are saying…from Orthodox and Catholic clergy alike. It is very clear in the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[rinnie]

my teaching come originally from god
he sent to Mohammed his words by an angel
that what we believe
i know about Abraham
he is my great great great … grande father cause the Arab is from hes son Ismail strain
anyhow
what we have of problems is that you was worshiping the same god until Jesus died
you start to worship the Creator and creature
that is what call “shirk”
and that why the Jews don’t agree with you cause they believe in one God not three in one
i see it this way
the old testament that the Jews believe Jesus came to tell them that they aren’t on the straight path , then the new testament come as a Bible But Christians worship Jesus instead of the truly one God
Then Mohammed came as the final Testament
i mean why would God tell Moses to make the Jews worships hem and tell them that he is three

I understand what you are saying, and believe there is a point here to be made before everything you said gets taken out of context which for some strange reason people here love to do.

What you said is you believe that we indeed did worship the One true God at one time until we came to realize him in Christ.

I will share with you what my Pope wrote and hope it can help you in some way.

Here is what he wrote.

I believe that we Christians and Muslims must recognize with joy the religious values that we have in common and give thanks to God for them.

Both of us believe in One God the ONLY GOD who is all justice and all Mercy we believe in the importance of prayer of fasting almsgiving of repentance and of pardon we believe that God will be a merciful judge to us at the end of time as we hope that after the resurrection he will be satisified with us and we know that we will be satisified with him.

Loyalty demands also that we should recognize and respect our differenes. Obviously the most fundamental is the view that we hold on the person and work of Jesus of Nazareth. You know that for Christians this Jesus causes them to enter into an intimate knowledge of the mystery of God and into a filial communion by his gifts so that they recognize him and proclaim him Lord and Saviour.

This next sentence I believe is very important.

Those are important differences which we can accept with humility and respect in mutual tolerance there is a mystery there on which I am certain God will one day enlighten us.

We must respect love and help every human being because he is a creature of God in a certain sense his image and his representative because he is the road leading to God and because he does not fully fulfil himself unless he knows God, unless he accepts him wih all his heart and unless he obeys him to the extent of the ways of perfection.

This obedience to God and this love for man should lead us to respect mans rights, these rights which are the expression of Gods will and demands of human nature such as it was created by God.

 

[moodset]

I understand what you are saying, and believe there is a point here to be made before everything you said gets taken out of context which for some strange reason people here love to do.

What you said is you believe that we indeed did worship the One true God at one time until we came to realize him in Christ.

I will share with you what my Pope wrote and hope it can help you in some way.

Here is what he wrote.

I believe that we Christians and Muslims must recognize with joy the religious values that we have in common and give thanks to God for them.

Both of us believe in One God the ONLY GOD who is all justice and all Mercy we believe in the importance of prayer of fasting almsgiving of repentance and of pardon we believe that God will be a merciful judge to us at the end of time as we hope that after the resurrection he will be satisified with us and we know that we will be satisified with him.

Loyalty demands also that we should recognize and respect our differenes. Obviously the most fundamental is the view that we hold on the person and work of Jesus of Nazareth. You know that for Christians this Jesus causes them to enter into an intimate knowledge of the mystery of God and into a filial communion by his gifts so that they recognize him and proclaim him Lord and Saviour.

This next sentence I believe is very important.

Those are important differences which we can accept with humility and respect in mutual tolerance there is a mystery there on which I am certain God will one day enlighten us.

We must respect love and help every human being because he is a creature of God in a certain sense his image and his representative because he is the road leading to God and because he does not fully fulfil himself unless he knows God, unless he accepts him wih all his heart and unless he obeys him to the extent of the ways of perfection.

This obedience to God and this love for man should lead us to respect mans rights, these rights which are the expression of Gods will and demands of human nature such as it was created by God.

I guess the pope have a point
I just want you to know that Islam is not the religion that teach Terrorism , and The Media like Foxnews and CNN is making that fabrications about us to gain the people Voice To let Countries like USA and france attack us
its oil and Gold problems they have Not Terrorism Defense

 

[Mickey]

I just want you to know that Islam is not the religion that teach Terrorism

Quran (8:12)** -** *“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” *

Is a Christian considered to be an unbeliever according to Islam?

 

[Mount_Carmel]

The problem regarding the ‘nature’ and identity of God is not so much one that lies at God’s ‘feet’, but one that lies at the feet of human comprehension and agenda.

It is not God that differs, but the human perception of what is the Divine that differs.

The language of the Old Testament/Torah is repleat with clues/references to personas within God’s divine singularity, and yet even the Jews themselves appear to have overlooked/misunderstood.

The word Elohim is used thousands of times for “God”; Adonai is used hundreds of times for “Lord”; both of these words are plural nouns in Hebrew.

A number of passages speak of the “faces” or “presences” or “persons” of God (Exodus 33:14; Deuteronomy 4:37; and Job 13:8).

God refers to Himself as “Us,” “Our,” and “We” (Genesis 1:26, 2:18 (LXX), 3:22, 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, and 41:21-24),2 a phenomenon that is reflected in virtually every English translation.

The OT says of God, “they caused me to wander” (Genesis 20:13), “they appeared” (Genesis 35:7), “they drew nigh” (Deuteronomy 4:7), “they went” (2 Samuel 7:23), and “they judge” (Psalm 58:11).

The OT calls God our “Creators” (Ecclesiastes 12:1), “Makers” and “Husbands” (Job 35:10; Psalm 149:2; Isaiah 54:5).
The OT says that God is “holy” (Joshua 24:19; Proverbs 9:10, 30:33), another plural.

If the prophetic authors of the Bible were unitarians then surely they wouldn’t have referred to God in this way. Indeed, unitarians do not typically speak this way in ordinary conversation and fall all over themselves trying to explain them when they are brought up.

Perhaps it is a case of Jeremiah 5:21 - Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
Or, Mark 8:18 - You have eyes! can you not see? You have ears! can you not hear? and have you no memory?​

So what chance does early Islam have, out on the very fringes of monotheism, on the fringes of Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and the ‘Hanif’ {early monotheist Arabs according to Islam - but used earlier by Jews and Christians in reference to ‘pagans’ and applied to followers of an old Hellenized Syro-Arabian religion and used to taunt early Muslims.], that the Muslims believe/fantasise has a direct link between Abraham and Muhammad - this despite Muhammad and Islam clearly still clinging on to many of the old [polytheist] trappings as well. No wonder those who deeply study and ponder the issue of the ‘advent’ of Allah often also percieve this ‘god’ to be a splice-up and ‘cut and paste’ variant with an Arab-centric core.

So is the Muslim ‘Allah’ really the same as the God spoken of by Jesus to the Samaritan woman in John 4:21-23, “You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews … the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.”?

 

[rinnie]

I guess the pope have a point
I just want you to know that Islam is not the religion that teach Terrorism , and The Media like Foxnews and CNN is making that fabrications about us to gain the people Voice To let Countries like USA and france attack us
its oil and Gold problems they have Not Terrorism Defense

Yes he was a really special Man. God sure gave us such a wonderful gift for many years when he gave us him.

He was a very compassionate and caring Pope who above all preached the truth of Christ and Peace and love to all.

I don’t want to continue preaching but his words were packed with so much wisdom. Wisdom that I know could only come from the One True God who we both believe in.

He was speaking to the young and I think no matter what is said here today I would like to finish out this thread on my part with his final words not mine.

But with my final thought first I will say this. I do not walk in your shoes, as you do not walk in mine, And as Christ taught us until you do then you judge. I can see many mistakes of the men of your country, but mine to. War is ugly and never easy and grows hate on both sides. But I for one no longer want hate, because I do believe OUR FATHER the God of heaven and earth like any Father in this world does not desire it either.

We have a song in the Catholic Church it says let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me. I hope we can find that in oneanother although we are very different and cannot change the past. But the Love of God and the more true understanding of him we can.

The Pope words which I will leave you and everyone here with.

Quote In this world there are frontiers and divisions between men as also misunderstandings between the generations there are likewise racism wars and injustices as also hunger waste and unemployment. These are dramatic evils which touch us all more particularly the young of the entire world. Come are in danger of discouragement, others of capitulation, others of willing to change everything by violence or by extreme solutions. Wisdom teaches us that self-discipline and love are then the only means of desires renewal. unquote.

Our beloved Pope has who has written this has been gone for sometime now. But I believe his words will continue to move on by the power of the Holy Spirit to many ears and hearts. We have a new Pope now who is also wonderful and will continue to spread the Love and Peace of God.

May God bless us and keep us in his grace Amen.

 

[Mickey]

So is the Muslim ‘Allah’ really the same as the God spoken of by Jesus to the Samaritan woman in John 4:21-23, “You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews … the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.”?

Sacred Scripture answers the question for us.

 

[Micosil]

I hope this hasn’t been said elsewhere in the thread, so here goes…

Other than what some Popes have said in the past, I think the concept of “People of the Book” in Islamic theology can shed some light on this question.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book

“a term used to designate non-Muslim adherents to faiths which have a revealed scripture …] This includes all Christians, all Children of Israel (including Jews, Karaites and Samaritans), and Sabians.” (emphasis added)

The Qur’an is generally seen to favor such people:

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. (Quran 29:46)

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62)

Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. (Quran 3:64)

So, far from “moon gods”, “demons”, “the devil” and “Satan”, it seems Muslims do worship the same God Catholics do.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Micosil - You are quoting some of Muhammad’s supposed earlier stuff, ‘from his Meccan Period’, BUT ALSO omitting the ‘Satanic Verses’ and a lot of what he is recorded as saying and doing at that time that accorded with his ‘former?’ Qurayshi polytheist beliefs and ceremonial. He distanced himself from Jews and Christians and started to persecute and kill them. in the name of the ‘Qurayshi Allah’ it is believed by many students of history [early and pre-Islam], once he had moved to Medina and gained some allies.

You cannot just take the Qur’an by itself {it does not go anywhere near propping up the 5 Pillars of Islam], nor assume it is chronologically narrated. It is, compared to the Bible or the Torah, badly written and chronologically chaotic. Just the kind of job I myself would do if I was either semi-literate, or more likely, aiming to confuse - as the Qur’an itself claims, ’ … Allah is the best of planners/deceivers’ - which is a title we Christians tend to reserve for Satan.

ps. If you can work your way to looking at the whole of the ‘Trilogy’ AND working out the chronology you will see the very big flaws in viewing the Qur’an in the same light as the Bible or indeed the Torah. It is as I and others have asserted and intimated, a cut and paste job of far more than just the Christian and Jewish God and beliefs.

 

[Micosil]

Micosil - You are quoting some of Muhammad’s supposed earlier stuff, ‘from his Meccan Period’, BUT ALSO omitting the ‘Satanic Verses’ and a lot of what he is recorded as saying and doing at that time that accorded with his ‘former?’ Qurayshi polytheist beliefs and ceremonial. He distanced himself from Jews and Christians and started to persecute and kill them. in the name of the ‘Qurayshi Allah’ it is believed by many students of history [early and pre-Islam], once he had moved to Medina and gained some allies.

You cannot just take the Qur’an by itself {it does not go anywhere near propping up the 5 Pillars of Islam], nor assume it is chronologically narrated. It is, compared to the Bible or the Torah, badly written and chronologically chaotic. Just the kind of job I myself would do if I was either semi-literate, or more likely, aiming to confuse - as the Qur’an itself claims, ’ … Allah is the best of planners/deceivers’ - which is a title we Christians tend to reserve for Satan.

ps. If you can work your way to looking at the whole of the ‘Trilogy’ AND working out the chronology you will see the very big flaws in viewing the Qur’an in the same light as the Bible or indeed the Torah. It is as I and others have asserted and intimated, a cut and paste job of far more than just the Christian and Jewish God and beliefs.

That is an excellent point, though bear in mind that though it is mostly accepted by (Western, non-Muslim) Islamic and Qur’anic scholars, there are things to take into account.

For example,

“Fred Halliday states that rather than having damaging implications, the story is a cautionary tale, the point of which is “not to malign God but to point up the frailty of human beings,” and that even a prophet may be misled by shaytan — though ultimately shaytan is unsuccessful.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

For you see, eventually “Muhammad confessed and repented”:

answering-islam.org/Green/satanic.htm

“Muhammad felt sorry and confessed his mistakes, supposing a similar fate befell preceding apostles. Later on Allah annulled these Satanic verses with better “revelations.” As the last part of verse 53 suggests, Allah supposedly permitted Satanic utterances to be in the Koran to test weak Muslims or to cut off those who had hardened hearts. Thus, Islam itself regards Sura 53:18-22 to be Satanic, and Muhammad did indeed reject them later.”

beholdthebeast.com/satanic_verses_in_the_koran.htm

So, in essence, this mirrors the Temptation of Christ, only Muhammed briefly gives in to later recant.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Unlike Jesus, who showed moral authority when faced by Satan from the start, Muhammad was indeed tempted and submitted to that temptation - would Allah’s ‘greatest prophet’ have been allowed by ‘Allah’ to cave in even for a moment? -And it wasn’t just for a moment in any case - even some of his few followers at the time showed greater discernment and rightly criticised him. {Did Jesus ever face rightful and righteous criticism?]

If you care to trawl through the Bukhari Hadith you will also find, especially in the Jihad, and warfare and battle passages that Muhammad and indeed ‘allah’ himself are reported as getting up to most immoral and unethical and unsavoury stuff between them - all in the name of the furtherance of Muhammad’s ‘new found’ religion.

Don’t take my word for it, read the passages and make up your own mind - it is all there in black and white and gory red…

ps. Yes, ref. the Satanic Verses and other stuff, as expected when faced with embarrassing and awkward questioning, Islamic apologists over the centuries have twisted and turned and convoluted and come up with all manner of creative and imaginative explanations and excuses - that somehow still have the ring of being contrived and often shoe-horned.

 

[Micosil]

Unlike Jesus, who showed moral authority when faced by Satan from the start, Muhammad was indeed tempted and submitted to that temptation - would Allah’s ‘greatest prophet’ have been allowed by ‘Allah’ to cave in even for a moment? -And it wasn’t just for a moment in any case - even some of his few followers at the time showed greater discernment and rightly criticised him. {Did Jesus ever face rightful and righteous criticism?]

If you care to trawl through the Bukhari Hadith you will also find, especially in the Jihad, and warfare and battle passages that Muhammad and indeed ‘allah’ himself are reported as getting up to most immoral and unethical and unsavoury stuff between them - all in the name of the furtherance of Muhammad’s ‘new found’ religion.

Don’t take my word for it, read the passages and make up your own mind - it is all there in black and white and gory red…

I agree with all this, remember that I am soon to convert to Catholicism and completely agree with Jesus’ divine authority.

I was merely making a case from an objective, scholastic point of view.

Peace be with you.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Micosil - Reference your ‘Peace be with you’ - to you I willingly return, ‘Et cum spiritu tuo’ {and with your spirit also].

May God go with you on your spiritual life’s journey.

 

[Saint_Castulus]

Unlike Jesus, who showed moral authority when faced by Satan from the start, Muhammad was indeed tempted and submitted to that temptation - would Allah’s ‘greatest prophet’ have been allowed by ‘Allah’ to cave in even for a moment? -And it wasn’t just for a moment in any case - even some of his few followers at the time showed greater discernment and rightly criticised him. {Did Jesus ever face rightful and righteous criticism?]

If you care to trawl through the Bukhari Hadith you will also find, especially in the Jihad, and warfare and battle passages that Muhammad and indeed ‘allah’ himself are reported as getting up to most immoral and unethical and unsavoury stuff between them - all in the name of the furtherance of Muhammad’s ‘new found’ religion.

Don’t take my word for it, read the passages and make up your own mind - it is all there in black and white and gory red…

ps. Yes, ref. the Satanic Verses and other stuff, as expected when faced with embarrassing and awkward questioning, Islamic apologists over the centuries have twisted and turned and convoluted and come up with all manner of creative and imaginative explanations and excuses - that somehow still have the ring of being contrived and often shoe-horned.

I am curious, this is a really long thread and I fail to see the logic of determining if Muslims are worshiping a false God? according to the Catholic catechism anyone who is not Catholic is not Christian? does not believe in the Catholic version of God does that include everyone/anyone=Protestants,LDS,Jews,Muslims, Buddhists, etc, except for Orthodox religions? am I wrong? I read the catechism and believe every word,so why would I ask if anyone other than Catholic or Orthodox is a Christian. I certainly would never confront anyone with my theological beliefs,that nearly always leads to trouble.
i

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

It seems to me that some say they worship a “false god” in order to justify a lot more anti-myslim sentiment. Of course, I guess I’m a liberal apostate because I think anybody who worships any god worships the one god the best way they know how…

I do not take that dangerous and Universalist approach and HIGHLY recommend that you do not either;
however, I am of the opinion that Muslims are talking about the same God, at best. Believe at medium.
Worship, however, may be another matter without the proper beliefs ABOUT God.

Muslims claim the same God as of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob, who sent many of the same prophets,
sent Jesus as well to be born of a virgin (though the nature of Jesus is different), and the most, I feel,
Islamic beliefs do is disassociate it as a Christian religion, but I’m sure that Muslims do long for The
Same One God as Christians do.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

I am curious, this is a really long thread and I fail to see the logic of determining if Muslims are worshiping a false God? according to the Catholic catechism anyone who is not Catholic is not Christian? does not believe in the Catholic version of God does that include everyone/anyone=Protestants,LDS,Jews,Muslims, Buddhists, etc, except for Orthodox religions? am I wrong? I read the catechism and believe every word,so why would I ask if anyone other than Catholic or Orthodox is a Christian. I certainly would never confront anyone with my theological beliefs,that nearly always leads to trouble.
i

Most all folks search of ‘a god’ of some kind, the question is, is this an ‘I am god’ of human and even Satanic construction, or the ‘I AM’ God who revealed Himself to Abraham and Moses?

As for what constitutes Christian, well for the most part it is recognised that those who hold to the tenets of the Nicene Creed are indeed Christian. Others who genuinely search for God may also be recognised by Jesus [and by inference] as searching for Him - and be included by the grace of God.