Does it matter whom we invoke?

[SaintNobody]

Last night I watched a documentary about political strategist named Lee Atwater. He was responsible for Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr. winning the presidency in the 1980’s.

He played some dirty politics, but he won elections.

In 1991, he died of a brain tumour. Before he died, he converted to Catholicism, and as an act of repentance, he wrote letters of apology to the people he hurt. So I have reason to believe that he died in a state of friendship with God.

On this eve of the US elections, I have invoked Lee Atwater’s prayers. I have also prayed for him because it’s quite plausible that he is still in purgatory.

I invoked him because I want John McCain to win.

I wonder: does it matter whom we invoke when we ask for the prayers of the dead? Does Lee Atwater’s political brilliance have any effect on what goes on on earth? I know that his political brilliance could not be entirely attributed to his willingness to play dirty-- he had some smarts after all. But could his intelligence direct our efforts here on earth?

I know that there are perhaps more meritorious saints to invoke, but we sure could use his smarts. I so wish Lee Atwater were still alive to help with McCain’s campaign! (Minus the immoral tactics)

 

[bpbasilphx]

In your private devotions, you are quite free to invoke anyone you wish.

It would be quite appropriate for an orphaned child to ask the intercessions of his parents, for example.

 

[SaintNobody]

What I mean to ask is: I could invoke some canonized saint. But Lee Atwater actually knew about electoral politics.

Would his knowledge be useful if I invoke him?

 

[bpbasilphx]

Would his knowledge be useful if I invoke him?

**Probably–but the real question is: Is he in a position to offer any assistance?

If you’re looking for a statesman to invoke, you could try St. Thomas Moore.**

 

[kmleo]

I was wondering this myself, but I wondered if I could ask our Founding Fathers – Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and others – to pray for the fate of our nation. It was the first time I ever considered asking for the intercession of a dead person who is not canonized or beatified.

Anyone have further clarification on whether or not it’s okay to ask for their intercession when we have no way of knowing where they are?

 

[water]

Anyone have further clarification on whether or not it’s okay to ask for their intercession when we have no way of knowing where they are?

What if you end up invoking someone who is in Hell? I am not saying who is who in Hell … my point is that ask someone you know for sure s/he is in Heaven - the Saints.

 

[kmleo]

What if you end up invoking someone who is in Hell? I am not saying who is who in Hell … my point is that ask someone you know for sure s/he is in Heaven - the Saints.

That’s what I’m wondering. We can pray to/for our loved ones who have passed, though, so what is the real difference? We have no idea of knowing where they went either. If it turns out they aren’t in heaven, do the prayers fall on deaf ears or do we end up calling on a demon? I am pretty sure that God couldn’t have blessed them with the calling to create the United States and not brought them to communion with him, but how would I know that?

 

[water]

That’s what I’m wondering. We can pray to/for our loved ones who have passed, though, so what is the real difference? We have no idea of knowing where they went either. If it turns out they aren’t in heaven, do the prayers fall on deaf ears or do we end up calling on a demon? I am pretty sure that God couldn’t have blessed them with the calling to create the United States and not brought them to communion with him, but how would I know that?

I don’t really know the answer - but I don’t think you will end up invoke a demon. You could ask a priest about it or someone else might give you some answer.

 

[Dtmccameron]

I don’t really know the answer - but I don’t think you will end up invoke a demon. You could ask a priest about it or someone else might give you some answer.

Aye, you don’t dial demons by mistake. They’ve got an entirely different area code, so, no worries. Now, if you meant to dial one, you most certainly could, though I don’t and wouldn’t tell you even if I did know how. (Hint: After much research, I’ve come to believe the area code is 555, but you’ll get no more assistance from me, necromancer!)

I ask, does it pay the deceased any disrespect to ask for the intercession of one or two particular saints, but then lump the rest into a great big group, “Y’all, too”.?

 

[kmleo]

I ask, does it pay the deceased any disrespect to ask for the intercession of one or two particular saints, but then lump the rest into a great big group, “Y’all, too”.?

Surely, they lumped the rest into a great big group when they were alive too? I mean, there are a whole lot of saints up there!!

Thanks for the advice about praying to Patriots, btw!

 

[Hudsonite]

My understanding has been that the Church has made no decision on this. There are many saints that have something to say both pro and con.
St. Thomas wrote that the souls in purgatory are in no position to pray for us , but other theologians say that the souls in purgatory do pray for us and that we may invoke their aid. The souls in purgatory have a greater love of God and because of their union with Him their prayers have great intercessory power. Other Theologians say that they are oblivious to our needs but that God can certainly make them aware of our needs.
The more we pray for the souls in purgatory, the more they can help us. It is said that they remember those who helped them and because of their great love for us, they in turn will remember us when they attain Heaven.
It seems as though one is always safer adding a few Saints into the mix.

 

[notsmart]

What if you end up invoking someone who is in Hell? I am not saying who is who in Hell … my point is that ask someone you know for sure s/he is in Heaven - the Saints.

All you need is moral certainty the person is in heaven. Not the need they are officially cannonized.

If you don’t believe me, since I am not catholic- ask an informed orthodox priest to explain it to you.

 

[notsmart]

My understanding has been that the Church has made no decision on this. There are many saints that have something to say both pro and con.
St. Thomas wrote that the souls in purgatory are in no position to pray for us , but other theologians say that the souls in purgatory do pray for us and that we may invoke their aid. The souls in purgatory have a greater love of God and because of their union with Him their prayers have great intercessory power. Other Theologians say that they are oblivious to our needs but that God can certainly make them aware of our needs.
The more we pray for the souls in purgatory, the more they can help us. It is said that they remember those who helped them and because of their great love for us, they in turn will remember us when they attain Heaven.
It seems as though one is always safer adding a few Saints into the mix.

Yep. And in addition to this, no prayer is wasted. Let’s say, in good conscience, you did ask someone to join you in prayer that was not a member of the church suffering. Yet, you felt there was a moral certainty they were.
That intention you prayed for would be attributed to another soul, even if the one you had sought to help with intentions for was damned.
No prayer is wasted.