But you do have to follow your conscience. If you believe Catholicism is true and refuse to adhere to it, then you’re in trouble, right?
Because truth matters, and because salvation is more than being saved from hell–salvation means God’s gracious purpose to unite all humanity with each other and with Him through Jesus, by incorporation into the Mystical Body.
Receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus doesn’t matter if you can somehow squeak into heaven without it? Is that really what you are saying?
Why can’t you have fellowship with other Christians without abandoning communion with Rome? (Easy to say–the practical difficulties in doing this are the major reason I am still dragging my feet about full communion with Rome, myself.)
in an earlier post you said “all Christians are Catholic,”. It’s true all Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic…Yes, I believe we are in complete agreement!
My point was that there is only one church. To believe in Christ is to be part of that church. What protestants call church is not Christ’s church. They feel it is, but it simply isn’t. But they still worship Christ and are validly baptized, so they have begun to enter His church, the Catholic church, whether they realize it or not.
I don’t know if this helps or just makes your question more complicated but I thought I’d give it a stab. I’m a cradle Catholic who fell away for about 30 years and then ultimately returned. I think a lot of what we believe ultimately does depend on what we were taught growing up–it’s really hard in the end to turn away from whatever your parents taught you. Having said that, during my time away, I tried a number of Protestant religions and even non-Christian philosophies. When I finally decided that I was ready and needed to find THE church and the answer within myself to which church I believed, I began to read historical evidence—and I don’t mean the bible or Catholic writers. I mean actual history of the times when various protestant sects came into being and what made them choose to break away. Most historians would agree that the earlier something is that you study–and the earlier you can trace its origins, the more likely it is to be accurate–assuming it IS accurate at all. There are many religions that are even more ancient than Christianity–including some of the eastern faiths in China etc. Thus, I had to decide first if I were going to accept Christianity as the true faith. Even that took me a little time to finally decide on. BUT, once I did, and as I read and realized that only the Catholic church could actually trace itself, its beliefs and its teachings and heritage back through St. Peter to Jesus Himself, it became apparent to me that if I accepted Christianity as true then I had, for the sake of accuracy if nothing else, accept Catholicism over other Christian sects none of whom even existed before about the year 1500! Most of these rifts occurred because a then-Catholic exerted his personal view above that of the ancient and recognized opinion of the Catholic church and thus a new denomination was started. Someone wanted to divorce their wife and the Catholic church said “You can’t–not because we say you can’t, but because Jesus said you can’t!” and the person wanting the divorce would simply break away and do whatever he chose. If you get into really weird cults such as the Adventists, they can’t even trace their origin back further than about the 19th century. So, for me, if I am going to be a Christian at all, then authenticity is very, VERY important. I wanted to be sure that I followed what Jesus said was true–not some man who had his own motives or reasons, but, that’s just my view. I hope I haven’t further muddied the water for you. God bless you in your search—it’s hard, I know!Well, I’m not sure why you thought that verse was pulled “out of context”. Maybe you could elaborate upon that point?
Also, I gotta say, I’m sincerely stumped as to how to have a discussion with a Catholic here when by the nature of the system it always comes down to an appeal to authority. If we agreed on the legitimacy of that authority, that would be one thing, but we don’t, so where does that leave us? At an impasse, I believe.
Of course, you can quote the scripture verses that support your position about Peter and the keys etc., but then I can claim proof-texting and improper context, and then you say, “No, the Church has the context right”, but that’s the appeal to authority again, in particular the authority which I – as a Protestant – can’t accept. Again, impasse.
Makes me think I should just give up on internet forums
Not my goal to convince anyone of anything. Besides, proselytizing is against CAF rules.
I simply cannot believe that what I see in it is what Jesus intended.Just because you call it “ecumenical discussion and free exchange of ideas” does not make it OK to question the teaching authority of the Church and to try to convince us to reject Church teaching. An open-minded reading of history and Scripture makes it clear that Jesus did indeed intend to give this authority to the Church.Not my goal to convince anyone of anything. Besides, proselytizing is against CAF rules.
Not my goal to understand you better, either, though, since as a Catholic I steeped myself in Catholic apologetics and theology, so I understand where you are. I was a Catholic attack dog, too, all in the name of tradition and orthodoxy.
The purpose of my posting here was nothing other than an attempt at ecumenical discussion and a free exchange of ideas. But over the last few weeks, I’ve come to realize that many here take offense at even that, and I don’t want to offend anyone, so this is my last post on CAF.
The upside is that at least the experience has confirmed for me that my decision to leave the RCC was the right one.
May you continue to find comfort in your faith,
A
Jesus commends those who persevere in the faith till the end. They’ve been tested and they persevered through the testing. Not everyone perseveresNot my goal to convince anyone of anything. Besides, proselytizing is against CAF rules.
Not my goal to understand you better, either, though, since as a Catholic I steeped myself in Catholic apologetics and theology, so I understand where you are. I was a Catholic attack dog, too, all in the name of tradition and orthodoxy.
The purpose of my posting here was nothing other than an attempt at ecumenical discussion and a free exchange of ideas. But over the last few weeks, I’ve come to realize that many here take offense at even that, and I don’t want to offend anyone, so this is my last post on CAF.
The upside is that at least the experience has confirmed for me that my decision to leave the RCC was the right one.
May you continue to find comfort in your faith,
A
Absolutely. I even pray for those in hell. Even if it’s only a temporary relief, or no good at all. I still feel sorry for them.The beauty is, however, that non of us mortals know God’s mind—so we should pray for everyone–Catholics, protestants, buddhists, and yes–even atheists! You’d agree with that, right?
I don’t think you would find many protestants who would agree with or even accept that statement.
I think that goes without saying. Or else they wouldn’t be protestants, lol.
I don’t think you’d find many who’d agree either–including one of my kids–which is neither here nor there I realize. I’ll say here what I tell her: all Christian faiths who baptize in the Trinity and do what Jesus said by loving God above all else and their neighbor as them selves have met Jesus’ rules for being on the path to salvation. BUT, in the Catholic church, we have so many things that make the path we walk on the way to salvation a little less rocky. My daughter is a big fan of Joel Osteen and some woman evangelist and I don’t know why, but they just irritate the hell out of me. I don’t think it’s what they say as much as their sanctimonious attitude. Oh well—probably a personal failing in myself!
Yes, well said.
I would be Catholic even if there were no such thing as Heaven, because the Sacraments work here and now. I get grace right now when I go to Confession and when I receive Holy Communion. I am a better person right now than I was this morning, and I’ll be even better tomorrow, because I’m Catholic.
Some theological constructs (like several of the traditional Byzantine Rite ones) put the purgation after death as time to be spent in the outer portions of hell… but only the pit of hell is the place of eternal damnation.
According to Vatican 2 and the current resident in Rome it is not necessary to be Catholic. Regardless how anyone tries to explain away Francis’ quotes the major media understands him to say that even atheists can get to heaven if they follow their conscience.
The major media does not understand correctly. I recommend you read his actual words and think about them rather than depend on second-hand accounts.