Does it really matter?

[RattleSnake]

Paris Blues:

Yeah but then non-Catholics will say something like,“the Bible doesn’t say anything like 'confess to a priest” or anything. It says who’s sins you forgive are forgiven…" but doesn’t say need to confess to a priest or a human being!"

Of course the Bible does not use those exact words. The Bible does not use exact wording on MANY things.

The living, breathing Church is where you look.

Christ left behind the Sacrament of Reconciliation. He gave us ways to reconcile. The Church has NOTHING against one confession “on their own.” A person can be very sorry for their sins… and have a contrite heart. God KNOWS your heart.

Christ gave us the opportunity to CONFESS our sins.

I can post on and on regarding this topic. Paris, I LOVE your enthusiasm and curiousity. You are truly being led by the Holy Spirit.

You may want to read the book: “Lord Have Mercy” by Scott Hahn. It tells about the history of confession… and the importance. It is a wonderful… EASY… quick read.

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385501706/qid=1112636589/sr=8-3/ref=pd_csp_3/104-3326495-5743957?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Paris Blues:

Then you’re saying that it doesn’t really matter what denomination you belong to then like my question to the very top. Or does it matter because we also need to follow Church teachings?

There are no “Church teachings.” There are Jesus Christ’s teachings laid out in the Bible and by the Catholic Church.

 

[Paris_Blues]

RattleSnake:

Of course the Bible does not use those exact words. The Bible does not use exact wording on MANY things.

The living, breathing Church is where you look.

%between%

I know I am starting to lose faith when I say this but I’m going to say it anyways:

How can I or a person who is entering in the CC KNOW FOR SURE that the Church is teaching the Truth? Why ask that you might ask. It’s because I’ve heard some bad things about the Church that happened many centuries ago and I can in a way understand why some people would hesitate to enter into the CC. However, I know that when we “fall” as sinners, we can get “back up”, so knowing that, I can assume that the Holy Spirit is leading the Church into Truth, regardless of how terrible a past it had…okay, maybe I’m starting to gain faith again …but do you see where I stand on this? I’m in RCIA and I’ve never had these kinds of questions in my mind when I’m in RCIA at that time but I get these questions when I’m NOT in RCIA so I have to ask you guys!

 

[Philthy]

Paris Blues:

I know we are suppose to love our Protestant brothers and sisters and I’m TRYING to tell them why the CC is the Church and all.

Make sure it is truly LOVE that is guiding you and not a personal agenda.
Paris Blues:

Now I am wanting to tell them that the non-Catholic churches are just made by men, etc. but don’t want to judge them but would like for them to understand. However, I would hate to tell them that they are following false stuff…but WAIT!! Are we 100% sure that that’s the truth for that? I mean, I just don’t want to say that them and make them feel bad or anything (I’m the kind of person that does NOT like to hurt people’s feelings!)!

If you are guided by LOVE and in possession of the Truth be bold. Otherwise be humble and acknowledge that you are not up to the task and go and pray for wisdom and guidance. Nothing turns people away from Truth more than disingenuous dialogue with an alterior motive.
Paris Blues:

On the other hand, I’ve noticed big time that both denominations have different interpretations of the Bible!

Interdenominational differences are bad enough, but intradenominational differences, especially obvious through a historical perspective, are unjustifiable and conclusively consistent with the formal insufficiency of Scripture.
Paris Blues:

But after I told her that, she quickly said:

"Reconciliation to God is not confession to a priest. Changing the term by which confession is named doesn’t change the act required and purpose.

God has reconciled (made compatible) to Himself, all those who believe Him… through Christ. He’s given us the ministry of ‘reconciliation’ (restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ), which is to share the gospel with others so they too can be ‘reconciled’ to God. That part in blue is from the Concordance. I believe that is what the ‘ministry of reconciliation’ is… sharing the gospel with the unsaved.

Oh yeah, it sounds so good doesn’t it? Of course it totally ignores Christ entering the upper room after his resurrection and saying to the Apostles,“Peace be with you. As my father has sent me, so I send you. And with that He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. Those whose sins you retain are retained, and those whose sins you forgive are forgiven them”. Notice that the responsibility for the actual forgiveness rests WITH THE APOSTLES. This is entirely inconsistent with the notion of them simply preaching the word as the “ministry” of reconciliation. The command was to " Go and make disciples of every nation” through what? The gospel? No, through “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe ALL I have commanded you.” Add to that the history of the priestly functions in the OT, and the history of what was actually done by Christians through the ages and her case is rather weak.
Paris Blues:

…As if I’m stupid and don’t know what heck I’m talking about or don’t know how to interpret Scripture :tsktsk: (and I don’t too well I’ll admit! ). But that’s a good example of how non-Catholics interpret stuff…anything to say the CC is a big, fat ol’ liar! See what I mean?

Remember what I said: If you are not doing it out of LOVE it will not work: and you are probably doing a disservice.

Phil

 

[Tom]

Paris Blues:

On the other hand, I’ve noticed big time that both denominations have different interpretations of the Bible! Yes, both seem to be truth but which one is the TRUTH? For example, I told someone about Confession and how 2 Cor. 5:18-20: "…all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation. . . . " and when I first saw that, I thought, hey, it DOES say about going to confession! I was amazed and thought, the CC IS THE TRUTH! But after I told her that, she quickly said:
"Reconciliation to God is not confession to a priest. Changing the term by which confession is named doesn’t change the act required and purpose.

And this is where your friend makes a mistake. In attempting to disprove a teaching of Jesus the Christ Himself. He gave the power to forgive sins and also to hold them to His Apostles (and thru His Apostles to the Bishop’s of today and thru His Bishops to the priest). Some don’t like this, it interferes with their own agenda, I am sorry but read His Words. It’s plain, it’s simple. To try to distort them into saying He really didn’t mean that is going against Scripture. I am sorry it is wrong; Reconciliation IS confession to a priest, or, Jesus lied, your choice. They can try to explain it away, to give all kinds of alternative meanings but they fall short. Their teachings are untrue. Actually several leading Protestant ministers are reconsidering “confession”. Reconciliation is NOT simply sharing the Gospel as your friend would like to believe. It’s so unfortunate many Protesters cheat themselves out of so many graces of God by denying the truths taught by the Catholic Church. Pray for them, please.

 

[Paris_Blues]

ElizabethAnne:

There are no “Church teachings.” There are Jesus Christ’s teachings laid out in the Bible and by the Catholic Church.

I meant, the CC teachings…I was gonna say, no Church teachings? I thought the body of Christ WAS and IS the Church (CC though)

 

[Paris_Blues]

What about the OSAS thing? Do Catholics believe in that or not?

 

[rwoehmke]

Hellaire Belloc described the situation nicely by saying that the Catholic Church is like a pie with no pieces missing. Other Churches and Religions are like the same pie, but each one has chosen to cut out a wedge and throw it away. Maybe the papacy, maybe Sacred Tradition, maybe the teaching authority, Saints, etc. They share in the Catholic Church only in so far as how much of that pie they have retained. In other words they have introduced a defect in the pie, but may still share certain doctrines like the trinity or maybe even just the idea of there being one God. They may also share in the moral/ethical life espoused by Jesus and the Church. Under the circumstances wouldn’t you rather share in the whole pie? John Paul II has taught in Domineus Iesus (sp?) that salvation is only through Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church. Salvation is possible in these other Religions in so far as they have kept a part of the pie, but they certainly lack many the aids and helps available to those in the Church. Notice it is Salvation through and not in the Church which is different than the notion held by Feeney and some others.

 

[Tom]

No, once saved always saved is inconsistent with Scripture.

 

[Paris_Blues]

Tom:

No, once saved always saved is inconsistent with Scripture.

Please explain. So that means, we are not 100% guaranteed Salvation, right?

 

[LSK]

Paris, I can be saved through baptism and participation in the Catholic Church but through my actions be denied Salvation. Remember, what one sees on the outside is not always what is happening on the inside, and only Jesus can judge us worthy of salvation.

 

[Paris_Blues]

LSK:

Paris, I can be saved through baptism and participation in the Catholic Church but through my actions be denied Salvation. Remember, what one sees on the outside is not always what is happening on the inside, and only Jesus can judge us worthy of salvation.

So that means I should be concerned for my non-Catholic brothers and sisters, right?

 

[Tom]

Paris Blues:

Please explain. So that means, we are not 100% guaranteed Salvation, right?

Absolutely correct, salvation is not an event it is a process. Jesus opens the door for us, without Him opening the door we are doomed, but Him opening the door does not mean we will walk in, we need to follow Him in, we can’t just sit and say “I believe”. Read St. Paul’s’ writings, he was very concerned he would stumble and not persevere.

 

[shannin]

Paris Blues:

Hmmmmmm…so in other words, if people want the FULL TRUTH, join the CC! But if they want some or half, join a non-Catholic church…is is kinda like that?

Yep.

 

[rwoehmke]

Wouldn’t you want the very best for them? A whole pie and not half of one? Worry may not be the right word, maybe wanting to share the very best.

 

[Paris_Blues]

Tom:

Absolutely correct, salvation is not an event it is a process. Jesus opens the door for us, without Him opening the door we are doomed, but Him opening the door does not mean we will walk in, we need to follow Him in, we can’t just sit and say “I believe”. Read St. Paul’s’ writings, he was very concerned he would stumble and not persevere.

One of my non-Catholic friends said:

“Christ died for us once and for all, and when we believe in Him, all our sins past, present, and future were forgiven. All our sin was placed on that cross when Christ died in our place. And when I believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, I’m saved forever.”

I’m concerned for people who are like this. How can I get them to understand? I mean, I don’t believe I am truly saved!

 

[Tom]

Paris Blues:

One of my non-Catholic friends said:

“Christ died for us once and for all, and when we believe in Him, all our sins past, present, and future were forgiven. All our sin was placed on that cross when Christ died in our place. And when I believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, I’m saved forever.”

I’m concerned for people who are like this. How can I get them to understand? I mean, I don’t believe I am truly saved!

Again, your friend tramples Scripture. That is NOT what Jesus teaches, just for example; how could a person in the year 60, who had sinned and gone to Peter to confess his or her sins and Peter refused to forgive the sin, according to Jesus, the sin would have been retained and not forgiven, or was Jesus joking when He told them they could forgives sins, those you forgive are forgiven, those you hold bound are held? It can’t be the way your friend thinks, it goes against Scripture. You’re probably never going to convince many of their errors, you shouldn’t try to reason with them, you should pray for them, unceasingly. Say the rosary for them, pray that the Holy Spirit will open their hearts to the truth. That’s the biggest thing you can do. teach them by your example, live the Gospel.

 

[LSK]

Paris - you cannot get them to understand; however, you can pray for their conversion. My suggestion would be to smile and say, “that is not what my Church teaches, and I know that my Church is firmly grounded in the Holy Scripture, but thank you for sharing your beliefs with me”.

Whenever they - or any non-Catholic - brings it up again, refer them to Scott Hahn’s CD “Faith Alone?”. It is a wonderful explanation of why the Church’s view that faith, without works, is dead is the correct interpretation of Holy Scripture.

Remember, no matter what, the words of Our LORD tell us we must do rather than just believe. No matter what THEY say, I (as a Christian) will always take Our Lord’s word over their interpretation - just like my Church does!

 

[Stephen_T]

Paris,

Here is a good Scripture Passage for you to reflect on. It comes from 2 Peter 3, 15-16:

“And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things 12 as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

As you can read from St. Peter, many parts of the Bible are difficult to understand. The Baltimore Catechism states that “we can know the true meaning of the Bible from the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, which has received from Jesus Christ the right and the duty to teach and to explain all that God has revealed.” If I was you, I would stick to the Catholic Church’s teachings–pick up a copy of the Baltimore Catechism, etc. Also, use the above passage to always remember that there are many people who do misinterpret Scripture–to their own destruction. Be careful!

Dominus Vobiscum,


Stephen

 

[Philthy]

Paris Blues:

One of my non-Catholic friends said:

“Christ died for us once and for all, and when we believe in Him, all our sins past, present, and future were forgiven. All our sin was placed on that cross when Christ died in our place. And when I believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, I’m saved forever.”

I’m concerned for people who are like this. How can I get them to understand? I mean, I don’t believe I am truly saved!

I’ve always found this verse as food for thought for the OSAS adherent:

Matt. 6:14
“If you forgive others their transgressions your heavenly father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.”

Notice how this very clear statement from Christ contradicts the theology of your friend above? It’s very simple: God will not forgive us unless we CONTINUE to forgive others, and as your friend clearly understands, forgiveness of one’s sins by God is a prerequisite to salvation.

OSAS is very attractive. It even has as a pretense an elevated adoration of God for bestowing such an incredible gift. The problem is that it contradicts Scripture and reason.

Phil