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lemondiesel
Guest
thoughts?
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inocente
Guest
Yes, it’s exhausting disbelieving in Thor, fairies, Santa Claus, vampires and fabric softeners.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
A question of semantic clarification, do you distinguish between “disbelieving” and “not believing?”
My understanding is that for some one that does not believe it is because there is not anything that motivates them to hold a belief. Some one that does not believe a proposition doesn’t evaluate it as true, but doesn’t evaluate it as false either. When some one disbelieves a proposition the person evaluates it as false.
My understanding is that for some one that does not believe it is because there is not anything that motivates them to hold a belief. Some one that does not believe a proposition doesn’t evaluate it as true, but doesn’t evaluate it as false either. When some one disbelieves a proposition the person evaluates it as false.
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triumphguy
Guest
I think that true, thoughtful, reflective atheists are as intellectually and spiritually honest as “believers.”
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rhiannonh
Guest
true in that, not all atheists are bitter about when the church failed them…
does it take more faith to disbelieve.
In order to disbelieve one has to believe in the first place… Thats the obvious bit.
People often fall out with church and kind of lump it in with falling out with God. To me the two can be seperated. When I had my disagreements with people in church I kept on going to that church. When I completely fell out with God, I stopped going to church. But I couldn’t stop believing in him no matter how hard I actually tried and wanted to. Now I am able to say that I do get angry with God. I can work with that as compared with not believing in God. I am also learning to really work with the times am angry with God as all a part of relationship with God.
I don’t think it takes more faith to disbelieve. I think one has to completely loose their faith to disbelieve, to properly disabelieve as seperate from falling out with God or being angry with God.
There seems to be a few atheists who are atheist because they are angry with God as well as the world around them. To be angry with God, one has to believe in him.
Hope I haven’t confused you
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
If you can complicate, why simplify ?
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
Not all atheists have had associations with churches. What first comes to mind are two people I know, one went from monotheism (Islam) to atheism, the other from polytheism to atheism. I also have a friend whose 14 year old daughter has been taught stories of the bible and stories of mythologies, but only as stories not as facts. As far as I can tell the girl has no religion, and doesn’t seem to care about it. I don’t think she feels the church failed her any more than she feels the mosque , temple, or other religious body failed her.
Sent from my phone, please pardon my mistakes.
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Alberti_Devoveo
Guest
Google can help us:
dis·be·lief/ˌdisbəˈlēf/
Noun:
- Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
- Lack of faith in something.
I have always believed that it takes as much to disbelieve in God as it does to believe in God.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
Would you say that is true of all god concepts (Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, or the panentheistic “the universe is a god”)?
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lemondiesel
Guest
Aren’t we talking about assumption and disbelief?
What if I do not agree with the general consensus on how to define God, or what God ‘supposedly’ is? Is believing in a language definition the same?
I would assume this concept requires the least amount of faith.
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Alberti_Devoveo
Guest
Yes.
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timotheos
Guest
I think that both “unbelief” and “belief” require equal faith, and both can be the product of rational thought, in spite of having radically different ramifications and conclusions.
However, the “proof” (ie. the evidence of this faith) is in the living. I think that among both groups, there is a general intellectual laziness to seriously examine the chosen/adopted belief in detail, and do not think and act in full congruence with their belief. They are in effect “cafeteria” believers, justifying whatever behaviors they wish by picking and choosing whatever conclusions from their faith suit them.
In other words, if you believe God is real, have the courage to live it. If you don’t believe in God, then life and morality and everything else is meaningless, so have the courage to challenge every piece of it, and I mean every piece, not just those parts you want.
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Hypnotoad
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ASimon
Guest
No. Certainly not to be a Christian, or any theist. Perhaps it takes equal faith to be a deist. But to be a Christian, it’s not enough to believe (on bad/non-existent evidence) that a Supreme Being exists. But also that he intervenes (exclusively) in human affairs, and has very specific rules for his human creations to follow, and very definite rewards/punishments for following those rules (or ignoring them).
To be an atheist is to, most strictly speaking, believe in the negation of this. And it doesn’t take any great leap of faith to settle on that.
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Perplexity
Guest
Hmm, I think the ‘ease’ with which some believes a position is proportional to the amount and kind of evidence he has for that position. Further, I don’t think evidence effects everyone the same. Some find certain evidence extremely persuasive while others don’t. Things like ignorance, critical thinking, and other beliefs contribute to the differential nature of evidential persuasion.
So, atheism would take a lot of faith for someone sharply inclined towards theism. But, if you take someone like me who is far more critical of theism, atheism isn’t much of a struggle to believe.
So, atheism would take a lot of faith for someone sharply inclined towards theism. But, if you take someone like me who is far more critical of theism, atheism isn’t much of a struggle to believe.
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afungusamongus
Guest
Yes it does. I do not have enough faith to be a atheist. That was also the title of a very good book by Frank Turek
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rhiannonh
Guest
???
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piejesu
Guest
It would seem it takes more faith to believe. After all what was it that Jesus said to Thomas?
“Blessed are they that believe without seeing.” On the surface this would seem to indicate a greater value for the object of “believing” faith.
It might be valuable in this discussion to quantify the type of faith in question. Are we talking about fiducial faith or dogmatic faith? One is present in the natural soul, the other is obtained only through regeneration. One leads to knowledge, the other to justification.
“Blessed are they that believe without seeing.” On the surface this would seem to indicate a greater value for the object of “believing” faith.
It might be valuable in this discussion to quantify the type of faith in question. Are we talking about fiducial faith or dogmatic faith? One is present in the natural soul, the other is obtained only through regeneration. One leads to knowledge, the other to justification.
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lemondiesel
Guest
Can I “see” gravity? Can I “see” atoms? I personally can’t, but I “assume” what I am told about these phenomenons by people who actually know is correct. Much like a hard math problem. I may not understand or comprehend it, but someone told me the answer. I can either be patient and work on the problem until I agree with the answer, or I could take the mathmeticians word on it.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
I don’t get the feeling that would work out well. Even if I limit consideration only to Yahweh there are some different incompatibles in their interpretations. As an extreme example are the Westboro members seem to follow what they believe. Of course there are less extreme examples, and gods other than Yahweh worshiped by the people of my land.
Sent from my phone, please pardon my mistakes.
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