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JDGaney
Guest
Maybe we are going too far in mariology? Can somebody analyze him and touch on some errors?
youtube.com/watch?v=M3ie46V2wfw
youtube.com/watch?v=M3ie46V2wfw
- Status
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austenbosten
Guest
Uh no we aren’t. I go to Mass and it is devoted to the Eucharist…aka Jesus. Mary is a praised Blessed figure in the Church as are the Saints, but the focal point is Jesus.
Don’t fall into Calvinist argument.
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PJM
Guest
Friend I’d like to weigh in on this matter but don’t have 45 mins to an hour to listen to the speakers.
Please give us some of their views and we’ll discuss the merits of them.
God Bless,
pat /PJm
*** A Certified Marian Catecheist***
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ahs
Guest
Short answer: James White does not argue with what the Catholic Teaching on Mary is, but argues with a twisted and warped idea of what he thinks it seems to be.
In the Gospels, Mary is quoted as saying, “all generations shall call me blessed”. The first thought that should come to mind here is," who am I to disregard this asn NOT call her blessed…given the fact that I recognize the Gospels as the Insprired Word of God?" A second thought may be, “why is it that she says all shall call her blessed…what makes her so special that the Inspired Word of God would present this fact to us?”
White states his thesis (the debate topic from his point of presentation at 39:22…“The Catholic Doctrine of Mary detracts from the all-sufficiency of Christ.”…yet he had just finished reading and explaining how the Church goes to Mary in order to get to Christ…not as some replacemetn or supplementation for/to Christ…but as means to present ourselves more perfectly to Him. In other words, White believes that we somehow limit Christ by going to His mother in order to get to Him more perfectly…which by the way…is not a Catholic mandate…not some rule. What is wrong with this belief is that God doesn’t share it. God did not see it as detracting from His all-sufficiency to come into the world through Mary. How then, can we see it as detracting from Christ’s all-sufficiency to go through Mary to come to Christ?
The other problem with White’s position is that Christ did not teach it. On the contrary, Christ gave us His mother at the foot of the Cross. “Son, here is your mother…woman, here is your son.” What does a mother do for her children? Does she not help them? At the wedding feast in Canna, did the bride and groom go to Christ to get more wine? No. Mary recognized that the wine had run out and she interceded on their behalf. Going to Mary as an intercessor, then, is Biblical. And what did Jesus say to Mary inresponse? “Woman, tell them to come to me themselves.”? No. He titled her, “woman” and asked what His involvement in the matter was since it was not yet His time for His Ministry. Did He then say, “nope…not my time yet…too bad.”. No. What he did next was He responded to her request by instructing the servants…after Mary told the servants “do whatever He tells you”.
To say that we can go directly to Christ ourselves is well and good. To say that going through Mary detracts from Christ’s all-sufficiency is neither true, nor Biblical. On the contrary, going through Mary to Christ is both Biblical and helps us to recognize the all-sufficiency of Christ in a more perfect manner.
In the Gospels, Mary is quoted as saying, “all generations shall call me blessed”. The first thought that should come to mind here is," who am I to disregard this asn NOT call her blessed…given the fact that I recognize the Gospels as the Insprired Word of God?" A second thought may be, “why is it that she says all shall call her blessed…what makes her so special that the Inspired Word of God would present this fact to us?”
White states his thesis (the debate topic from his point of presentation at 39:22…“The Catholic Doctrine of Mary detracts from the all-sufficiency of Christ.”…yet he had just finished reading and explaining how the Church goes to Mary in order to get to Christ…not as some replacemetn or supplementation for/to Christ…but as means to present ourselves more perfectly to Him. In other words, White believes that we somehow limit Christ by going to His mother in order to get to Him more perfectly…which by the way…is not a Catholic mandate…not some rule. What is wrong with this belief is that God doesn’t share it. God did not see it as detracting from His all-sufficiency to come into the world through Mary. How then, can we see it as detracting from Christ’s all-sufficiency to go through Mary to come to Christ?
The other problem with White’s position is that Christ did not teach it. On the contrary, Christ gave us His mother at the foot of the Cross. “Son, here is your mother…woman, here is your son.” What does a mother do for her children? Does she not help them? At the wedding feast in Canna, did the bride and groom go to Christ to get more wine? No. Mary recognized that the wine had run out and she interceded on their behalf. Going to Mary as an intercessor, then, is Biblical. And what did Jesus say to Mary inresponse? “Woman, tell them to come to me themselves.”? No. He titled her, “woman” and asked what His involvement in the matter was since it was not yet His time for His Ministry. Did He then say, “nope…not my time yet…too bad.”. No. What he did next was He responded to her request by instructing the servants…after Mary told the servants “do whatever He tells you”.
To say that we can go directly to Christ ourselves is well and good. To say that going through Mary detracts from Christ’s all-sufficiency is neither true, nor Biblical. On the contrary, going through Mary to Christ is both Biblical and helps us to recognize the all-sufficiency of Christ in a more perfect manner.
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PJM
Guest
**And in holding such a position he is wrong.
Mary ADDS TOO souls finding, loving and Worshiping Christ; nothing more and certainly nothing **LESS!
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Catholic1954
Guest
James White is a professional anti-Catholic and is not interested in honest debate nor is he seeking the truth. His own sister, Patti White, converted to Catholicism years ago and she cut off contact with him because of his intellectual dishonesty.
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DasGood
Guest
I guess I’ll have to see what all this fuss is about James White.
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dmar198
Guest
His biggest error, because it is the one he spends the most time on, is his error about St. Alphonsus Liguori’s book The Glories of Mary. He objects to (1) the high praise of Mary in that book and (2) Alphonsus’ suggestion that we should look to Mary as our intercessor because Jesus is fierce towards us, and Mary is merciful. He also objects to (3) using words and phrases for Mary that the Bible uses for God (examples include “To thee I commend my spirit,” “Thou art our hope, our salvation,” and “Mediatrix.”) This takes up the bulk of his first forty minutes.
His next errors, #4 and #5, are about the doctrine of One Mediator, which he says means (4) that only God addresses our prayers and (5) that only God distributes grace. His #6 error is that the Scriptures say only a little about Mary, and our doctrines are too big to rest on its testimony. (“A mountain on top of a few toothpicks” is an analogy I like, though I don’t think he used it in that particular video.) Finally, his #7 error is that by having so many doctrines about Mary to meditate on and praise, we are automatically focusing a person on Mary instead of Christ. His other errors center on claims about Tradition, Church authority, and justification, which are important but aren’t part of Mariology, so I’ll ignore them for this analysis.
Let’s go through his objections one by one.
- Alphonsus uses high praise to glorify Mary, praises that sound like they belong only to God. This is typical of high praise. When a man sees his wife, he might say she is the only thing in the world to him, that he loves her more than anything else, or that she is the only thing he really cares about. When Isaac praised Esau, he told him that to see him was to see the face of God – Genesis 33:10. When we’re praising someone and we don’t intend to exclude God, we don’t have to worry about making an exception in every outburst of love to remind ourselves that God is greater. Why? Because everyone can see that excluding God is not the intention. A person shouldn’t conclude that God is excluded just because one of His creatures is magnified. The fact that Alphonsus was praising Mary in God’s honor is even more of a reason not to get suspicious.
- Alphonsus says we should look to Mary as our intercessor because Jesus is too fierce. When the Trinity planned the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 18, Abraham stood behind God and requested that He show mercy, and God relented a little. When the God of the Blood Covenant planned to destroy the Israelites for their idolatry in Exodus 32, Moses fell down before Him and pleaded with Him not to do it, and God didn’t. The fact that God relents from His wrath because of human intercession is a revealed truth of the Bible. James White doesn’t like it, but it’s what the Bible says. The real objection here is to the doctrine of Marian intercession. (See also #4.) If Mary can’t intercede for us, then of course she can’t turn away God’s wrath (and Jesus’ wrath). But if she can intercede for us, and if she is meant to be an intercessor for us, then the objection that we shouldn’t ask her to petition God for mercy is moot. Re: saintly intercession, see #4: the Bible is clear that the Saints are intercessors. Another possible point about this is that the Trinity only showed wrath in the Old Testament, and Jesus is more merciful in the New Testament. For a quick refutation of that see Luke 19:27, Revelation 19:15, 21, and John 3:36 that Jesus equally shares God’s wrathfulness in the New Testament, and Exodus 34:6-7 that God was equally merciful in the Old Testament.
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dmar198
Guest
[cont’d from last]
to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.” Mary’s song is a song of God fulfilling His promises: promises of salvation, mercy, and hope. And she doesn’t say people will only bless God for this. They will bless Him, but they will bless her as well, and with His approval. God put the fulfillment in Mary. “She believed, so that what was spoken to her from the Lord might be fulfilled.” Luke 1:45. Alphonsus takes the Biblical promise and sings it to highest heaven. But he is only doing more of what the Holy Spirit did so long ago in Mary’s song itself.
And people in heaven can distribute grace. In Rev. 1:4 John says that grace is to be given “from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne.” God and the angels both send grace here. In Genesis 32:24-30 Jacob wrestles with an angel and won’t let him go until he gives his blessing. “Then Jacob asked him, ‘Tell me, I pray, your name,’ but he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’ And there he blessed him.” (verse 29) Hosea 12:4 confirms that this was an angel. In Matt. 25:21 Jesus promises that when we enter heaven He will say to us, “Because you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.” We will be in charge of things on earth. We will be able to affect things on earth. We will have power over things on earth. The only way not to ask the Saints for their intercession, is to ignore their power over matters God has set them in charge of.
[cont’d next]
- Alphonsus uses language for Mary that the Bible uses for God. This is related to #1: he is using high praise for Mary and it is typical of high praise that we go beyond human praise. The same thing happens in the Bible and in poetry about love. Song of Solomon is a perfect example of this. In Songs 5:10 the woman calls her lover “the all-radiant.” In Songs 6:9 the man sings back “My dove, my perfect one, is only one, … and flawless.” Funny, the Bible uses the same language for God: “perfect” and “without fault” in Deuteronomy 32:4, and everyone knows truly God is the “only one” and to call anyone else that seems like blasphemy. But this is poetry, this is praise of His creatures for His sake, and He is not disapproved by it.
to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.” Mary’s song is a song of God fulfilling His promises: promises of salvation, mercy, and hope. And she doesn’t say people will only bless God for this. They will bless Him, but they will bless her as well, and with His approval. God put the fulfillment in Mary. “She believed, so that what was spoken to her from the Lord might be fulfilled.” Luke 1:45. Alphonsus takes the Biblical promise and sings it to highest heaven. But he is only doing more of what the Holy Spirit did so long ago in Mary’s song itself.
- and 5. are about the doctrine of One Mediator, which James White says means (4) that only God addresses our prayers and (5) that only God distributes grace. But that’s not what it means. The doctrine of One Mediator is not that Jesus is the one mediator in every spiritual matter whatsoever. It is the doctrine that Jesus is the only mediator of redemption. For proof you only need to read the next verse: “[5] There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, [6] who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.” Jesus is the only one who ransomed us from the power of sin and death. Mary didn’t do that, Abraham didn’t do that, Peter and Paul didn’t do that. Only Jesus gave that to us from heaven. That’s what the doctrine of one mediator is. The idea that Jesus is the only intercessor in heaven, is not taught in the context or the main text. It is not what the term “mediator” is used for in the context. It is connected to the redemption in verse 6 because it is talking about the redemption in verse 5. Other people pray.
And people in heaven can distribute grace. In Rev. 1:4 John says that grace is to be given “from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne.” God and the angels both send grace here. In Genesis 32:24-30 Jacob wrestles with an angel and won’t let him go until he gives his blessing. “Then Jacob asked him, ‘Tell me, I pray, your name,’ but he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’ And there he blessed him.” (verse 29) Hosea 12:4 confirms that this was an angel. In Matt. 25:21 Jesus promises that when we enter heaven He will say to us, “Because you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.” We will be in charge of things on earth. We will be able to affect things on earth. We will have power over things on earth. The only way not to ask the Saints for their intercession, is to ignore their power over matters God has set them in charge of.
[cont’d next]
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dmar198
Guest
[cont’d from last]
- James White objects that the Scriptures say only a few things about Mary, and our doctrines are too big to rest on its testimony. God did big things for Mary. That’s what the Bible says: Luke 1:49. We believe big things about Mary because the Bible says there’s big things about Mary to believe. Those big things need to be unpacked from the testimony of the Scriptures. Scripture may have few words to say, but those few words can say much. “Full of grace” is the best example of this. The Greek word is kecharitomene. The root word is charitos, grace. The “ke” part means it is in the perfect tense. The “mene” means it is being used in place of her name – it’s a title. Mary is “perfect grace.” Think about the massive implications of that! Or take the word that precedes it: chaire, which means “hail.” The angel didn’t say “Good evening” or even “Glad tidings,” he hailed her, the greeting reserved for a superior. I don’t hail my neighbor, I hail Caesar. An angel came into Mary and greeted her as his superior. The implications of that are massive. Or take the predictive prophecy of Isaiah. A virgin shall bear a child and he shall be called God who is with us. The highest praise we can give Mary is included in her status as the Mother of God because no greater gift can be given than God Incarnate, and this status is what God promised to her in Isaiah 7:14. Catholic praise of Mary isn’t too high, in fact it doesn’t do her justice. God did much more for her long before we started.
- James White objects that if we have this much theology about Mary then automatically all of that attention which we are giving to her is not being given to Christ, and is therefore a distraction. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and David are all proof that this is wrong, because all of them are given enormous amounts of attention in the Bible and that is where our theology comes from. The Bible isn’t written in theological treatise. We learn of God’s mercy from the story of Lot who was taken by the hand and God raced with him from the city of Sodom. We learn of God’s mystery from the story of Job who was smitten but loved with all kindness. We learn of God’s faithfulness from His promise to Israel and removal of the nations who opposed them.
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JDGaney
Guest
This is what the guy who posted the video said to me in a comment:
You work for the enemy. White refuted that counter argument (assertion) numerous times in this debate.
and then he blocked me after I sent him a message in anger telling him thatr anti-catholic jerks like him sent me into ocd and scrupulosity. either that or it was after I posted the comment, Idk. He’s a jerk,
You work for the enemy. White refuted that counter argument (assertion) numerous times in this debate.
and then he blocked me after I sent him a message in anger telling him thatr anti-catholic jerks like him sent me into ocd and scrupulosity. either that or it was after I posted the comment, Idk. He’s a jerk,
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austenbosten
Guest
Don’t get angry too much, pray for that man’s conversion. He’s on the wrong side not you.
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Zooey
Guest
This.
Honestly? I didn’t even bother to look at the link, because I have long ago realized that James White **never **makes any sense.
My 2 cents? He’s just talking to hear his own head roar.
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kmaaj
Guest
Quite frankly I am angry with him. Has nothing to do with his theology, as I have enjoyed listening to him debate.
When confronted with allegations of his father sexually abusing his sister, rather than address the allegations, James -chose- to divert the subject and instead vilify his sister and demean her character and those around her. This is an intimidation tactic with the intent to suppress and silence Patti, and I find Jame’s behavior on this subject to be disgusting and flat out evil.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
I see. So, you opened this thread to find some comfort I suppose.
I’m sorry to hear about the OCD; that’s quite a burden to live with.
Well, even in being a jerk – people often are right for the wrong reasons. It is true, you do work for the “enemy”, but only in the sense that he has aligned himself against Christ’s authority, the church; not because you want to be his enemy.
DMAR198 has been rather thorough in his response; and I can’t read it all to look for mistakes – but in general he is correct. My own experience with James White’s apologetics is that they are very shallow. If you log into his apologetics chat; and watch; you will find days wasted with “pastor xxx” and “moderator yyy” talking about how much money is required for this or that church… and how if there is any left over “let me have it.”. IT has, quite literally, been a joke site over over my observation of the Jan-November 2012 year – with actual apologetic discussion being a miniscule part of it’s band-with.
I’m not fond the french saint’s poetic expressions; or “high” praise of Mary myself; but Jame’s white really isn’t bright enough (or at least willing) to sort arguments into logically accurate facts vs. opinions.
However, DMAR198 is absolutely correct – scripture does apply praises that belong to God to mere individuals; A particularly Marian used Psalm is #44/45.
“the King’s honor for my theme; my tongue flows readily as the pen of a swift writer. Thine is more than mortal beauty, thy lips overflow with gracious utterance; the blessings God has granted you can never fail.”
Note, the psalm predates the time or even understanding that God incarnate would be king in the future – rather, it speaks to the Jews about whomever God placed upon their throne; and this is also shown by the fact that it is the “blessings” of God which are spoken of.
As Catholics, we apply this psalm to Mary and Jesus as her son; although, the historical context does not require the king to be Jesus. Without further qualification, the psalm reads:
"Daughters of kings come out to meet thee; at thy right hand stands the queen in ophir gold, arrayed. (Listen my daughter, and consider my words attentively, you are to forget, henceforward, your own nation, and the house of your father; thy beauty, now, is all for the kings delight; he is thy Lord, and honor belongs to him.)
But, any attentive reading of the psalm with inevitably notice that this “beauty” is specifically designed to delight the king in a public setting with onlookers from all nations. She is to be seen in public like a breathtaking trophy.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
If you go to Patrick Madrid’s website you can listen to Patrick Madrid debate James White on the Communion of saints. He has an mp3 download you can purchase there in which he does a very good job of explaining the Communion of saints from the bible and from history. James W. tries to say that praying to the Saints is idolatry but in my opinion does not supply a coherent argument against praying to Saints. He tries to say that one should honor God only and honoring the Saints is the same as worshipping them. This flies in the face of common sense and makes God look like he is insecure that He can’t handle someone being praised for a job well done. James says that both latria and dulia should be given to God only. However, i know from my own study of the bible that the word worship is used in different contexts, sometimes for people and then sometimes in the context only for God. This it is necessary to differentiate the two kinds of honor, that which is given to God only and that which is given to creatures. The bible tells us to honor one another.
His argument boils down to a warning against idolatry which is good but it fails to take into account the language of the bible and the different types of honor given.
Really, the bible should be meditated on anyway and not used to prove someone wrong or right.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
This is the problem with debates. You are listening to two people debating theology. And, from that you are supposed to reason on your own who is correct. Does God tell us anywhere in the bible that we need to reason on our own and figure things out for ourselves? No. If you suffer from ocd and I know where you are coming from you don’t need to figure more things out. The best thing to do is to go to God in prayer right? He knows all the answers, right? Imagine God sitting in heaven while we are down here arguing about what He likes best. He must get a little tired of us arguing all the time down here don’t you think?
As Christians we shouldn’t be living from reasoned theology. We should be living from our relationship with the Lord and what he speaks to our heart. God loves us and He wants to speak to us. We can spend time listening to Him. He will speak to our hearts, not our reasoning. Do some journaling and write down what he says to you. Get comfortable, relax and still your mind. Then focus on Jesus. ask the Lord to give you an image of Jesus in your mind and listen to whatever thoughts come to mind and write them down. Don’t question what you write until after because you will break the flow if you doubt what you are writing. after you are done journaling you can go back after and discern what you wrote.
There are only 3 sources where a thought can come from. It is either from God, Satan or from you. Do you think that every thought in your head is your own when you have the Holy Spirit inside of you? God is speaking to us all the time. We may get a spontaneous thought for instance to pray for someone. If you are focusing on the Lord and asking him a question do you think that He will not speak to us? Jesus said if you know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask? If you ask God to speak to you will he give you the devil to listen to? If your son asks for a fish will you give him a rabbit?
One of the things the Lord teaches us is not to be angry at others. anger is not from the Holy Spirit. we need to repent for being angry at Protestants or people who attack us because it will open the door to evil influences in our life. Instead we need to learn to live out of the flow of the Holy Spirit - peace, love, joy, forgiveness, etc. we don’t need to worry about what the other guy is doing or not doing. we don’t need to try to save the world. Even Jesus didn’t heal everybody or feed everybody. He just accomplished the will of the Father that he was sent to do. He said I only do what the Father is doing. That is our call as well to allow the Holy Spirit to lead us in our daily activities. This requires dying to ourselves but only so that we can live in Christ. We don’t die to ourselves as an end in itself but only so that Christ can fully live in us.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
I pray the rosary every day and never has the Lord told me that I shouldn’t be doing it. In fact, when I first started praying the rosary (after a long time not) I asked the Lord if this is something I should be doing. And, while I was praying the rosary I was thinking it would be nice to go on a road trip tomorrow to a specific city so that I could listen to some Catholic talks in the car on the way. Well, the next morning I awoke to an email asking me if I would go to that specific city because they needed someone to fix something that had broke down. I believed and took that as a confirmation that praying the rosary was a good thing.
Praying the rosary can often bring me a sense of peace. You see it is the mind that tries to figure things out but quite often it is our heart that God wants to speak to. If we are relying solely on our mind we are missing what God wants to give us. God is interested in matters of the heart not in our reasoning. When was the last time you saw a picture of the sacred brain of Jesus? Never. It is always the sacred heart.
Praying the rosary can often bring me a sense of peace. You see it is the mind that tries to figure things out but quite often it is our heart that God wants to speak to. If we are relying solely on our mind we are missing what God wants to give us. God is interested in matters of the heart not in our reasoning. When was the last time you saw a picture of the sacred brain of Jesus? Never. It is always the sacred heart.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
:yup:
Life IS far less painful when given a good enough answer rather than just the problem…!
I think God speaks to our hearts, but gave us the gift of reason to be used in discerning. For example: St. Paul says that we can reason from creation to the existence of God (namely his power and deity). St. Paul also says that Abraham “reasoned that God could raise Isaac from the dead.”
From these two examples, I think we can easily see that reasoning ABOUT our experience of God’s miracles, lead to reasonable behavior. eg: That is notably what you did concerning the choice to pray the rosary.
I wouldn’t give any of my sons a poisoned serpent or a rock for food;
but if all I have that day for them is rabbit, even if they ask for fish – they WILL still get rabbit. 
AKA. The Holy Spirit’s 12 fruits. That’s a good study, in addition to the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit which bring about those fruits.
Anger – although listed as a capital sin – is not always a sin.
Anger is an immediate response to the experience of injustice. Hence, it implies a judgement. That Judgment (not the feeling of anger) is what CAN be brought before God’s court.
A court accepts witnesses, and it takes two or three witnesses to condemn a person; we brought that legal standard into the Church on Christ’s command. Catholic law is judged by a tribunal, and requires two or three witnesses.
Consider Jesus’s choice of judging:
Matthew 5:22-23. "Whoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of judgment; and whoever shall say “Raca”, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, “Thou fool”, shall be in danger of Gehenna.
This example, notice, rises in three levels; Anger itself is only one witness. Each time a witness is added, the potential, for punishment increases. Hence – Anger alone is a reason for a trial to be convened; but it can’t bring about a death sentence. Two agreeing witnesses are required for punishment or acquittal; hence three are sufficient when doubt arises.
Because a trial can be decided in favor of the plaintiff’s justice – or the defendants, the gravity of each person’s accusation is quite important. Accusing someone of something worthy of death – means, you yourself are liable for murder if you are wrong. (As you judge, you shall be judged. Settle with your opponent on your way to court…)
Matth 5:23 “Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother** has** something against YOU, leave there your gift and go your way; first be reconciled with your brother, and then come offer your gift.”
But, meditation on these passages also reveals that anger itself doesn’t guarantee condemnation nor the presence of a devil within one’s self; there CAN BE legitimate reasons to be angry with your brother.
With this in mind, grasp that anger as an emotion is NOT initiated by us, nor is it right nor wrong in and of itself. In many people, the emotion (or passion), is merely an effect or burden which they must bear. With OCD, there is a danger of feeling guilt for an anger and trying to solve “anger”. But one can even become angry at being unable to get rid of anger; and that’s OCD!
It’s important to note that the accusation “you FOOL” is a statement about the complete mental inability/inflexibility; In addition, English translation doesn’t do it justice, for in the original languages – Fool is often a synonym for a murderer and religious foreigner. See psalm 13/14 and 52/53; “The FOOL says in his heart there is no God… there is not an innocent one among them [FOOLS]; What, can they [FOOLS] learn nothing, all these traffickers in iniquity who feed themselves fat on this people of mine, as if it were bread?”
So,note that Fools are predatory and murderous. Religious foreigners (Pagans) often fit this description.
The first level of danger – is just anger, or at most an act of incidental rage. I don’t think it is premeditated. The second level includes a public statement of anger – eg: “you’re a jerk and thief”, the third level is a grave accusation “you murderer of the innocent”.
If the accusation is false, it’s gravity falls on the accuser – if true, it falls on the accused. (see a hypothetical example: Catholic book of Daniel, chapter 13, on Susanna ).
However, consider that St. Paul obviously had a great temper; and his temper led to murder in ignorance. But even in retrospect, and inspired by the Holy Spirit, St. Paul says: “**Be angry **, but do not sin.” (Ephesian 4:25-27)
usccb.org/bible/ephesians/4
Anger IS an appropriate response to a true injustice so long as we don’t let it grow to a sin. We are to keep it in check, as it CAN open the door to the devil (although it doesn’t automatically do so.)
Seek peace, first.
- Status