Does Jesus have a body in heaven?

[dcharlesworth]

I was having a bit of a debate with a protestant last night, and the topic came up of Jesus’ state now in heaven.

My friend held the view that Jesus was only man at a time, renouncing his Godly status to come in human form, and then after he died, rose again and is now in heaven in a very un-human form.

I tried to make the case that he is both fully God and fully man. And that he bodily ascended into heaven. We made it his homework to show scripture that supports the idea he gave up his body. Any thoughts or scriptures contrary to this belief?

Blessings.

 

[JimG]

Sounds like a totally novel idea to me.

Catholic doctrine from the beginning has been that Jesus is true God and true man. And Protestant doctrine from the time of the reformation has been the same.

So where does he get this?

Does he not believe that the Person of Jesus is identical with the Person of the Word–the Son–the Second Person of the Trinity?

Homemade theology can be fun, but it can also get to be a mess.

 

[FCEGM]

I was having a bit of a debate with a protestant last night, and the topic came up of Jesus’ state now in heaven.

My friend held the view that Jesus was only man at a time, renouncing his Godly status to come in human form, and then after he died, rose again and is now in heaven in a very un-human form.

I tried to make the case that he is both fully God and fully man. And that he bodily ascended into heaven. We made it his homework to show scripture that supports the idea he gave up his body. Any thoughts or scriptures contrary to this belief?

Blessings.

If Christ Jesus wasn’t raised in his glorifed body, then we have no hope of sharing in His resurrection. See this from the late Holy Father:

GENERAL AUDIENCE OF WEDNESDAY, 27 JANUARY

The following is the text of the Holy Father’s address during the general audience on 27 January.

1. During the preceding audiences we reflected on Christ’s words about the other world, which will emerge together with the resurrection of bodies. Those words had an extraordinarily intense resonance in the teaching of St. Paul. Between the answer given to the Sadducees, transmitted by the synoptic Gospels (cf. Mt 22:30; Mk 12:25; Lk 20:35-36), and Paul’s apostolate there took place first of all the fact of the resurrection of Christ himself and a series of meetings with the risen Christ. Among these must be included, as the last link, the event that occurred in the neighborhood of Damascus. Saul or Paul of Tarsus who, on his conversion, became the Apostle of the Gentiles, also had his own post-paschal experience, similar to that of the other apostles. At the basis of his faith in the resurrection, which he expresses above all in the First Letter to the Corinthians (ch. 15), there is certainly that meeting with the risen Christ, which became the beginning and foundation of his apostolate.

God is not dead

1. It is difficult to sum up here and comment adequately on the stupendous and ample argumentation of the fifteenth chapter of the First Letter to the Corinthians in all its details. It is significant that, while Christ replied to the Sadducees, who “say that there is no resurrection” (Lk 20:27), with the words reported by the synoptic Gospels, Paul, on his part, replied or rather engaged in polemics (in conformity with his temperament) with those who contested it.(1) In his (pre-paschal) answer, Christ did not refer to his own resurrection, but appealed to the fundamental reality of the Old Testament covenant, to the reality of the living God. The conviction of the possibility of the resurrection is based on this: the living God “is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Mk 12:27). Paul’s post-paschal argumentation on the future resurrection referred above all to the reality and the truth of the resurrection of Christ. In fact, he defends this truth even as the foundation of the faith in its integrity: “If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain… But, in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead” (1 Cor 15:14, 20). . .

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb69.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus was raised a spirit being which may be where your protestant friend is coming from.

1 John 1
What Was Heard, Seen, and Touched

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your[a] joy may be full.

Fellowship with Him and One Another

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I Cor 15 describes the resurrected body.

Study the post resurrection accounts in the gospels, Jesus ate fish, Thomas felt the wounds in his body, Jesus plainly says “a spirit does not have flesh and bone” like you see I am. Paul tells us that Jesus gave them proof of the ressurrection, seeing a mere spirit is hardly proof. I started this post with I John 1 because the apostles were witnesses of Jesus’ resurrected body. John plainly says, hey we saw the resurrected Lord, in fact we handled him, we touched him. One passage in the gospels plainly says a woman ( mary? ) clinged to him, that is hanged on him tightly. In the book of Acts ( 8 or 9 ) Stephen saw Jesus in heaven at the right hand of the father. I would use the accounts in the gospels that demonstrate that his resurrection had a physical element to it.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Sorry it was luke, not Paul who said,

Acts 1:3
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

 

[DaveBj]

Here’s Paul’s word on the subject:

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, (I Tim 2:5, NKJV)

 

[true_believer]

I believe that both Jesus and Mary were ascended into heaven with their human bodies.

 

[thistle]

I believe that both Jesus and Mary were ascended into heaven with their human bodies.

Jesus ascended. Mary was assumed. There is a big difference!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus’ glorified body is in heaven.

Jesus’ body after the resurrection had characteristics that were different that his body before the reusrrection.

It could pass through walls for example as when he passed through the walls of the upper room to show himself to Thomas.

When we receive the Eucharist we receive the Glorified body of Jesus.

The same body that could go through walls and be substantially intersecting them even though the disiplces would see only the wals until Jesus appeared in front of them

Is the same body that can be substantially present in the Eucharist even though with our physical eyes we see only the accidents of the bread and the wine!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

It is assumed that Jesus passed through walls. We are told that Jesus could hide who he was by messing with the apostles minds. So, it is just as likely Jesus messed with their minds in those intances.

Luke 24:31
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

 

[Nita]

It is assumed that Jesus passed through walls. We are told that Jesus could hide who he was by messing with the apostles minds. So, it is just as likely Jesus messed with their minds in those intances.

Luke 24:31
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

I don’t think He was “messing with the apostles minds”. In our glorified state, the flesh will be subject to (or perfectly reflect) the soul. Hence, Jesus’ glorified body would assume whatever characteristics He desired it to have. (Also explains why Mary’s physical appearance is different in the various apparitions.)

In the glorified state, we are no longer subject to physical laws. Jesus could pass through walls, ascend into heaven, etc.
Of course, being God, He could transcend physical laws even before He died and rose from the dead. (Walk on water, transfiguration)

Sure going to be easy to lose weight when we get to heaven!

Nita

 

[Nita]

I was having a bit of a debate with a protestant last night, and the topic came up of Jesus’ state now in heaven.

My friend held the view that Jesus was only man at a time, renouncing his Godly status to come in human form, and then after he died, rose again and is now in heaven in a very un-human form.

.

It’s not clear to me from your post; does the protestant believe Jesus’ body rose from the dead? If he does believe that Jesus’ body was raised from the dead, what does he think happened to it after He ascended into heaven - where did it go?

If he doesn’t believe Jesus’ body was raised from the dead, then I would ask him what was Jesus talking about when He foretold His death and resurrection? (eg Matthew 17:22-23 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” )

Jesus, His Divine Second Person of the Trinity, was never confined/limited spatially to the tomb. As God, His Divine Person is omnipresent - therefore it would not be His Deity that would be raised from the dead. In addition, His Divine Person/Nature never died, and thus the being raised from death is not in reference to His Divinity.

The following is from “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” and gives good Scripture references.

Quote.

*In the Old Testament, Christ’s Resurrect is, according to the exposition of St. Peter and St. Paul (Acts 2:24 et seq.; 13:35 35 seq.), announced in Ps. 15:10 - “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell nor wilt thou give thy holy one to see corruption.” …

Christ definitely prophesied that He would rise from the dead on the third day after His death. Cf. Mt. 12:40; 16:21; 17:32; 20:19; 27:63; 28:6; John 2:19. The reality of the Resurrection is proved by the fact of the empty tomb–afurtive removal of the corpse was, in the circumstances, out of the question–and of the many appearances during which Jesus spoke with His disciples, allowed Himself to be touched by them, and ate with them Cf. Mt. 28; Mk 16; Luke 24; John 20 & 21; 1 Cor 15:3 et seq;… The Apostles give forceful testimony of the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ; cf. Acts 1:22; 2:24 & 32; 3:15; 13:30 et seq; 17:3 & 18; 26:23.

…The Risen Christ retained the wounds in His transfigured body as tokens of His triumph over death. John 20:27 “Put thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither thy hand and put it into my side and be not faithless but believing.”*
End quote.

Nita

 

[Reformed_Rob]

You could ask him what he thinks about Elijah and Enoch. The Church has no specific teaching on it I don’t think, but the Bible seems to indicate that they were taken up into heaven.

As a Catholic, I’d believe differently about it than your protestant friend would take it just by simply reading for instance II Kings 2 and Hebrews 11 on the 2 men. They were taken up, sure, but were they taken up into “Abraham’s bosom” or heaven?

Probably Abraham’s bosom. But nevertheless, point is Scripture talks about people being taken up away from earth to be with God. So there shouldn’t be anything wrong in principle with considering that in heaven people can retain their bodies.

Another example…Mary in John’s vision in the Apocalypse. Chapter 11 and 12 I believe.

 

[dcharlesworth]

It’s not clear to me from your post; does the protestant believe Jesus’ body rose from the dead? If he does believe that Jesus’ body was raised from the dead, what does he think happened to it after He ascended into heaven - where did it go?

Where did it go? I did ask this question, and thus it became his homework to find out the scriptural references to explain where it did go, if it didn’t end up staying with Jesus. There is only one answer, we will see what he comes up with

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Luke clearly tells us in the passage I pointed to that Jesus did in fact “mess with their minds” eye. He kept them from recognising him until he wanted them to recognise him. Go read the text. So, it is possible that he entered the room before they locked the door making himself unknown to them at first. And, when he wanted to he made himself known to them. Like I said it is assumed by those who read the text that Jesus walked through the wall. The text simply does not say how he did it.

Another, possiblity is simply that Jesus shifted between dimensions, that being he came there from heaven or from a spiritual realm. Again, this is all specuation on all of our parts, and one specualtion is as good as another.

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The NASB brings out the verb in John 20:17 the best, stop clinging to me, she had a tight grip on Jesus after his resurrection.

John 20:17 Parallel Translations

NASB: Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” (NASB ©1995)

GWT: Jesus told her, “Don’t hold on to me. I have not yet gone to the Father. But go to my brothers and sisters and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”(GOD’S WORD®)

KJV: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

ASV: Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

BBE: Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, I go up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

DBY: Jesus says to her, Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.

ERV: Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

WEY: “**Do not cling to me,” **said Jesus, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But take this message to my brethren: ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

WBS: Jesus saith to her, Touch me not: for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.

WEB: Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them,‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

YLT: Jesus saith to her, ‘Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.’

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hebrews 11:5 (New International Version)

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

As you know, Elijah was taken up in the “firely charot”.

In Jewish tradition, Moses was also translated to heaven too. Josephus records that account, if you are interrested. In the book of Jude, we are told that Micheal the archangel battled the devil over the body of Moses. So, it is possible that Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven.

So, if God wants to take a person to heaven he can. What is confusing is the 60 plus accounts in 9 languages about the end of Mary’s life. Each account contradicts the other accounts in all details. But, they are interresting to read.

Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption by Shoemaker, Stephen

 

[Pat_the_Cat]

It is assumed that Jesus passed through walls. We are told that Jesus could hide who he was by messing with the apostles minds. So, it is just as likely Jesus messed with their minds in those intances.

Luke 24:31
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

I don’t think Jesus messes with people’s minds. As far as I understand it was no form of mind games that Jesus played. Jesus only reveals Himself to those who are properly disposed i.e. those who have Faith.

For example Peter and John ran to see the body of Christ in the tomb, when they got there they believed he had risen, Jesus saw their faith and revealed himself. All the apostles saw Jesus before Thomas who doubted, only after a change of heart from Thomas did Jesus reveal Himself. The disciples on the road to Emmaus needed an explaination and some time with the Lord before they were properly disposed and only then did Jesus reveal Himself to them. The same is true now. Jesus reveals Himself to those who are properly disposed. and those who are not CANNOT see Him.

“Ask and it shall be given to you. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened to you”