Does Jesus meet the requirements in being the Messiah?

[thunderbolt94]

Hey,

I was going through the list of requirements according to Judaism that states the requirements for messiahship.

Here is the list:

Isaiah 1:26: “And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City.” Some Jews interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)

The “spirit of the Lord” will be upon him, and he will have a “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[2]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

So does Jesus meet all these requirements? If so, could someone explain in depth and maybe point me in the right direction?

 

[Della]

Welcomd to CAF and to the RCIA journey!

With all due respect to the Jewish people, what they expect (there’s a lot of interpretation along with those passages, not just a list of verses) and what the Messiah wanted to accomplish are not necessarily the same things.

Jesus established his Church in which both Jews and Gentiles were to be a new creation in him, the Second Adam, as St. Paul explains it. This does not mean the Jewish people have been abandoned by God, not at all. It does mean, though, that Jesus fulfilled the desire of all mankind, not just those of the Jewish people. Christ’s Church is universal with one faith, one baptism, one family of God, one Body of Christ. I hope that helps. It’s nearly time for Evening Prayer so I can’t go into greater depth now, but I’m sure others will join in. Just wanted to give you something to “chew” on for now.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

The Jewish leaders of Jesus’ time didn’t expect Jesus - the Christ - to have his mission be what he did - save us from our sins (i.e die on the cross). Why would that change now? The only difference is that Jews aren’t really expecting the Messiah because the Messiah was supposed to come when Jesus came (guess what, it did - Jesus ).

@Della: evening? and MN?

 

[Della]

The Jewish leaders of Jesus’ time didn’t expect Jesus - the Christ - to have his mission be what he did - save us from our sins (i.e die on the cross). Why would that change now? The only difference is that Jews aren’t really expecting the Messiah because the Messiah was supposed to come when Jesus came (guess what, it did - Jesus ).

Yes, there are examples of this throughout the Gospel accounts. Their ideas about the Messiah and Jesus’ ideas about his mission were often worlds apart.

@Della: evening? and MN?

3 PM midwest standard time. Evening Prayer is traditionally prayed at 3 PM but can be prayed until 6 PM after that it’s Night Prayer, according to the traditional timetable, that is.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hey,

I was going through the list of requirements according to Judaism that states the requirements for messiahship.

Here is the list:

Isaiah 1:26: “And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City.” Some Jews interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)

The “spirit of the Lord” will be upon him, and he will have a “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[2]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

So does Jesus meet all these requirements? If so, could someone explain in depth and maybe point me in the right direction?

The Jewish perspective, for the most part, is that Jesus did not meet ANY of the requirements for the Messiah. The word itself, “mashiach,” meaning the “anointed one,” was mentioned in the Torah but once and it was not capitalized. According to Jewish prophecy, the Messiah was not supposed to be of Divine nature, neither G-d the Father nor the Son of G-d, and his mission was not thought to be that of a Savior or Redeemer for our sins. Judaism believes in individual atonement, not vicarious atonement: even the atonement of a Tzadik (holy man) for the people is a complementary atonement, which may certainly help, but is not designed to absolve each person from his own repentance, and does not require the death of the holy man. Christianity, particularly Catholicism, has, in a sense, kept this tradition, since, although the Sacrament of Baptism in the name of the Triune G-d is believed to absolve us of original sin (also not a Jewish concept), the Catholic religion believes in faith manifested in Christ-like works, rather than sola fide, and moreover that each person must be pardoned of his own (mortal) sins on a continual basis by means of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession).

 

[Dave_Noonan]

The Jewish perspective, for the most part, is that Jesus did not meet ANY of the requirements for the Messiah. The word itself, “mashiach,” meaning the “anointed one,” was mentioned in the Torah but once and it was not capitalized. According to Jewish prophecy, the Messiah was not supposed to be of Divine nature, neither G-d the Father nor the Son of G-d, and his mission was not thought to be that of a Savior or Redeemer for our sins. Judaism believes in individual atonement, not vicarious atonement: even the atonement of a Tzadik (holy man) for the people is a complementary atonement, which may certainly help, but is not designed to absolve each person from his own repentance, and does not require the death of the holy man. Christianity, particularly Catholicism, has, in a sense, kept this tradition, since, although the Sacrament of Baptism in the name of the Triune G-d is believed to absolve us of original sin (also not a Jewish concept), the Catholic religion believes in faith manifested in Christ-like works, rather than sola fide, and moreover that each person must be pardoned of his own (mortal) sins on a continual basis by means of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession).

Yes, if these are the criteria (i.e., the OP), then Jesus didn’t meet them, unless one wants to apply some sort of vague symbolic meaning which would be pretty dicey.

However, the word “mashiach” does appear frequently in the Hebrew Bible and I think four times in the Torah itself (See Lev. 4 & 6).

There is no capitalization in Hebrew.

The term mashiach–something/someone anointed–is fluid because there are lots of things that are anointed in the Hebrew Bible The verb משח is indeed used most often in references to kings, but also quite frequently for priests, for sacred objects set aside for sacred use (furnishings, utensils), and for sacrifices. There are also some miscellaneous uses for anointing oneself, for anointing weapons, and I think only a single self-reference to an anointed prophet: Isaiah.

According to the Gospels, Jesus’ disciples and supporters misunderstand Jesus’ messiahship as political–and as simply something that would enhance their own political power (e.g., Matt 16:23, Matt 21:9–there are lots of examples). However, Jesus’ self-understanding of messiahship in the Gospels is one of prophecy (e.g., Lk. 4:18) and sacrifice (e.g. Jn. 15:13). Later Christians also saw Jesus in the role of a priestly messiah (e.g, the Letter to the Hebrews).

Not all Christians believe baptism eliminates original sin, but you’re correct in that Catholics do believe this.

I would appreciate a specific references to Jewish prophecy if you have them handy–thanks!

 

[MorningSong51]

Hey,

I was going through the list of requirements according to Judaism that states the requirements for messiahship.

Here is the list:

Isaiah 1:26: “And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City.” Some Jews interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)

The “spirit of the Lord” will be upon him, and he will have a “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[2]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

So does Jesus meet all these requirements? If so, could someone explain in depth and maybe point me in the right direction?

You forgot one essential requirement: a Prophet in order to recognize the King Messiah. (Luke 3:4) There are other requirements like: establishment of the Sanhedrin (remember Moses chose 70 in counsel - I don’t know how the extra 2 came in, Numbers 11:16 - "Bring me seventy of Israel’s elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. From what I understood: the process involved choosing six elders from each tribe, for a total of 72); and the rebuilding of the temple etc…but the one requirement that has me spinning, is that the Messiah will be an ordinary person?? That would be a little difficult considering the background on Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, … and Moses

**
Starting with Noah:** (Hebrews 11, again) “It was through his faith that Noah, when he had been warned by God of something that had never been seen before, took care to build an ark to save his family. His faith was a judgment on the world. And he was able to claim the uprightness which comes from faith” - again quoting this from Bereshit (Genesis), “Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. “ – Again scripture reads “walked with God”

When continuing later in Genesis – chapter 12, 1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your kindred and your father’s house. In Genesis 15 the opening verse said “the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision” and in Genesis 17, the opening verse says, “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty (I am El Shaddai);** walk before me faithfully and be blameless. **(Luke 1:5-7)2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.” – 2nd part to this was on line 4, “God spoke to him as follows” then in Genesis 18, “1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre,.” …see verse 3 ““My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.” (Luke 1:28 “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”)

**It was God who appeared to Isaac and said (Genesis 26:2-4) “Do not go down to Egypt; stay in the country which I shall point out to you. “**In Genesis 26, when God spoke to Isaac - the passage reads 'I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” with the New Testament “the LORD appeared to US” -See Luke 1:38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her." It was accredited to Mary for she was obedient to God and blameless in His sight "“Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

 

[MorningSong51]

continue:

And with Jacob (Israel), came the twelve tribes – Genesis 28:12-22, “13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”

**Now with Moses, God had shown Moses all of his glory, as scripture said, “Now show me your glory."– After Jacob and after Moses, did any prophet “see” God or “walk” with God? **“And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

John 1:14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Nothing ordinary…Jesus fulfilled the prophecy.

Blessings
Mary

 

[MorningSong51]

The Jewish perspective, for the most part, is that Jesus did not meet ANY of the requirements for the Messiah. The word itself, “mashiach,” meaning the “anointed one,” was mentioned in the Torah but once and it was not capitalized. According to Jewish prophecy, the Messiah was not supposed to be of Divine nature, neither G-d the Father nor the Son of G-d, and his mission was not thought to be that of a Savior or Redeemer for our sins. Judaism believes in individual atonement, not vicarious atonement: even the atonement of a Tzadik (holy man) for the people is a complementary atonement, which may certainly help, but is not designed to absolve each person from his own repentance, and does not require the death of the holy man. Christianity, particularly Catholicism, has, in a sense, kept this tradition, since, although the Sacrament of Baptism in the name of the Triune G-d is believed to absolve us of original sin (also not a Jewish concept), the Catholic religion believes in faith manifested in Christ-like works, rather than sola fide, and moreover that each person must be pardoned of his own (mortal) sins on a continual basis by means of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession).

No RMb"M din or individual person (or anyone else) COULD ever declare someone to be the Messiah (authoritatively)–even if he were to unequivocally meet the Torah criteria recorded in the Hibor (Mishneh Torah). If a person appears to have met the Messianic criteria described in the Hibur (for a potential candidate), we still have the major problem of a missing Sanhedrin (and arguably a Prophet) - that must be present to OFFICIALLY recognize the Messiah --as recorded in Hilkhoth Sanhedrin and Mamrim. The power of one din is irrelevant for any type of official recognition in this area. We need the Sanhedrin (and perhaps a Prophet) in order to recognize the King Messiah.

LINK

The prophet has to announce and identify the Messiah - accordingly.

 

[TimothyH]

The common belief among Jews of Jesus’ time was that the messiah was supposed to be a new Moses. As the new Moses, the messiah would institute a new exodus. Elijiah and Moses himself speak with Jesus about this new exodus.

While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem. (Luke 9:29-31)

In this new exodus, the world would be transformed physically. Instead of God coming down out of Heaven to dwell with men in the temple, Heaven itself would come down and transform the world. This was Jewish belief and we see it in several places in the New Testament, when Paul and John speak of a “New Jerusalem” coming down from Heaven and a “Heavenly Jerusalem”.

No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, (Hebrews 12:22)

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Revelation 21:1-2)

Part of the belief in the new Moses who was to institute a new exodus which would transform the world was the belief in the return of the manna from heaven which the Israelites had eaten in the desert during the first exodus. When Jesus fed the five thousand with five loaves of bread, those present immediately knew he was the messaih, the new Moses, who was instituting the new exodus and giving them manna - bread from heaven.

Then Jesus took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed them to those who were reclining, and also as much of the fish as they wanted. When they had had their fill, he said to his disciples, “Gather the fragments left over, so that nothing will be wasted.” So they collected them, and filled twelve wicker baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves that had been more than they could eat. When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, "This is truly the Prophet, the one who is to come into the world." Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:11-15)

The people were so sure that Jesus was the “Prophet coming into the world” that they were ready to carry him off and make him king!

I would question the list of prophecies in the original post - who assembled them and by who’s authority they are a definative as a checklist of requirments which must be met for Jesus to be the messiah according to Jewish belief. I’m not saying they are not requirements or that some Jews don’t believe that the person who fulfills those requirements will be the messiah. But prophetic requirments or otherwise, it is clear that the Jews present at the feeding of the five thousand knew that Jesus had fullfilled the requirements of being the new Moses and returning the manna from heaven.

Catholics know that Jesus has given us the bread of angels, the heavenly manna, in the Eucharist.

-Tim-

 

[meltzerboy]

Yes, if these are the criteria (i.e., the OP), then Jesus didn’t meet them, unless one wants to apply some sort of vague symbolic meaning which would be pretty dicey.

However, the word “mashiach” does appear frequently in the Hebrew Bible and I think four times in the Torah itself (See Lev. 4 & 6).

There is no capitalization in Hebrew.

The term mashiach–something/someone anointed–is fluid because there are lots of things that are anointed in the Hebrew Bible The verb משח is indeed used most often in references to kings, but also quite frequently for priests, for sacred objects set aside for sacred use (furnishings, utensils), and for sacrifices. There are also some miscellaneous uses for anointing oneself, for anointing weapons, and I think only a single self-reference to an anointed prophet: Isaiah.

According to the Gospels, Jesus’ disciples and supporters misunderstand Jesus’ messiahship as political–and as simply something that would enhance their own political power (e.g., Matt 16:23, Matt 21:9–there are lots of examples). However, Jesus’ self-understanding of messiahship in the Gospels is one of prophecy (e.g., Lk. 4:18) and sacrifice (e.g. Jn. 15:13). Later Christians also saw Jesus in the role of a priestly messiah (e.g, the Letter to the Hebrews).

Not all Christians believe baptism eliminates original sin, but you’re correct in that Catholics do believe this.

I would appreciate a specific references to Jewish prophecy if you have them handy–thanks!

I vaguely recall only one mention of mashiach in the Torah itself. But other sources say none at all. The Leviticus passages do not speak of the Anointed One (Mashiach), though they may use the word “anointed” either as a verb–to spread with oil–or as an adjective, describing an anointing process. And the term is used, as you say, several times in the Tanakh, apart from Torah, but when it refers to an anointed priest, it is used only as an adjective. On the other hand, it is used as a noun when referring to the anointed king, or prince. I should not have said non-capitalized since you’re right that Hebrew does not capitalize its letters. What I meant was that the context of the word makes it mean something other than THE anointed one (the Messiah), but rather AN anointed person or holy object anointed with oil. The prophecy references with respect to the nature of the Messiah are scattered among Isaiah (of course) 2, 11, 42, as well as Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; Zechariah 14; Zephaniah 3; Hosea 3; Micah 4; Daniel 10; and Ezekiel 38.

 

[meltzerboy]

No RMb"M din or individual person (or anyone else) COULD ever declare someone to be the Messiah (authoritatively)–even if he were to unequivocally meet the Torah criteria recorded in the Hibor (Mishneh Torah). If a person appears to have met the Messianic criteria described in the Hibur (for a potential candidate), we still have the major problem of a missing Sanhedrin (and arguably a Prophet) - that must be present to OFFICIALLY recognize the Messiah --as recorded in Hilkhoth Sanhedrin and Mamrim. The power of one din is irrelevant for any type of official recognition in this area. We need the Sanhedrin (and perhaps a Prophet) in order to recognize the King Messiah.

LINK

The prophet has to announce and identify the Messiah - accordingly.

Are you referring to Elijah the Prophet’s announcement regarding the coming of the Messiah? This also was not fulfilled, at least not literally. Some argue that John the Baptist was the returning Elijah, although he himself denied it. Jesus stated that the spirit of Elijah had returned but not the flesh. What do you make of all this?

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I vaguely recall only one mention of mashiach in the Torah itself. But other sources say none at all. The Leviticus passages do not speak of the Anointed One (Mashiach), though they may use the word “anointed” either as a verb–to spread with oil–or as an adjective, describing an anointing process. And the term is used, as you say, several times in the Tanakh, apart from Torah, but when it refers to an anointed priest, it is used only as an adjective. On the other hand, it is used as a noun when referring to the anointed king, or prince. I should not have said non-capitalized since you’re right that Hebrew does not capitalize its letters. What I meant was that the context of the word makes it mean something other than THE anointed one (the Messiah), but rather AN anointed person or holy object anointed with oil. The prophecy references with respect to the nature of the Messiah are scattered among Isaiah (of course) 2, 11, 42, as well as Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; Zechariah 14; Zephaniah 3; Hosea 3; Micah 4; Daniel 10; and Ezekiel 38.

The Leviticus passages use the term “mashiach” not as a verb but as an adjective to describe the anointed priest. (Verb would be the action, “the process” would actually be a noun–in apposition here, lit. “the priest, the anointed one”.) But I do see what you’re saying in one sense, but on other hand it’s not completely correct to say that המשיח (note definite article) does not appear in the Torah.

As a side question: what about Psalm 105:15–which seems to refer to prophets and not kings/princes as simply “anointed ones” (not as a modifying adjective, but rather in the titular sense that I think you are referring to)? Or this doesn’t count for you because it’s plural…?

But my more significant question would be why none of these prophecies explicitly reference המשיהח if they are meant to prophesy about same. Or maybe I’m just missing the references. Although I’m sure one could read them that way (as sort of aspirations for an ideal ruler) I don’t see why one MUST read them that way since המשיח is not mentioned in any of them as far as I know.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

3 PM midwest standard time. Evening Prayer is traditionally prayed at 3 PM but can be prayed until 6 PM after that it’s Night Prayer, according to the traditional timetable, that is.

Well, I didn’t know that. Can you tell I’m (sadly) not Catholic?

 

[melbanglican]

Did Jews in the time of Jesus, as an amorphous group, have the highly organised list of requirements for the coming Messiah? I seem to recall that E P Sanders, ‘The Historical Figure of Jesus’, noted that there was not a single established set of criteria at the time, which made it possible for the followers of Jesus to, as they say, ‘stake his claim’ based on parts of Isaiah and other prophets.

 

[patrick457]

Did Jews in the time of Jesus, as an amorphous group, have the highly organised list of requirements for the coming Messiah? I seem to recall that E P Sanders, ‘The Historical Figure of Jesus’, noted that there was not a single established set of criteria at the time, which made it possible for the followers of Jesus to, as they say, ‘stake his claim’ based on parts of Isaiah and other prophets.

Correct. I happen to own a copy of the book (not with me at this time though). The problem with the assumption that the Jews had a single, homogeneous idea of what the Messiah would be like is that it assumes that Judaism was a monolithic entity at the time of Jesus, which was simply not the case. In fact, the reverse was true: there was a huge diversity among Jewish thought in those days, which even led some scholars to employ the term ‘JudaismS’ (in the plural). There is apparently no consistent pattern of one messianic expectation to be found among 1st-century Jews; indeed, on the contrary, there was a huge variety of concepts which are so fluid, ill-defined, and difficult to form into a coherent whole. There was no single view of the Messiah; on the contrary, each group which did entertain a messianic hope interpreted ‘Messiah’ in light of its historical experiences and reinterpreted Scripture accordingly. Any fixed and unitary concept of the Messiah according to one author actually involves an ahistorical synthesis of ideas found in later writings and retrojecting them in the period before AD 70.

Sanders theorizes that many Jews indeed desired freedom from Roman suzerainty and expected divine deliverance, but they varied on how redemption would occur. Some expected a messiah (and even then, no one exactly agreed on what he would be and what he would do, or even how many messiahs are there!), others expected a grand sign, still others sought for nothing more than a God-given courage for the righteous to act against the oppressor.

The image of David as a good king was central to the image of the royal Messiah, but there were also those who expected a prophetic Messiah a la Moses, or even an Aaronic, priestly one, or even a heavenly figure. In fact, there were also those who expected several Messiahs (such as the community at Qumran), or a Messiah which combined the various roles together (such as early Christianity). The Messiah(s) was pictured as whatever people most wanted him to be - be it a king, a savior, a priest, an invincible general, a prophet, or a teacher.

In a much broader sense, the term ‘messianic expectation’ were sometimes (misleadingly) applied to the belief that God would step in and intervene at human affairs, whether or not a Messiah is actually involved. When the revolt finally broke out in AD 66, many joined apparently because they believed that God was now ready to deliver them. to march on Jerusalem to restore order. Inexplicably though, he broke off the siege and retreated (apparently waiting for reinforcements), and his troops were defeated in an ambush at the Battle of Beth Horon, a result that shocked the Roman leadership. To many, this would have been a sign from heaven. Few, if any, believed that they could successfully revolt on their own; God, however, had saved them in the past, and He would do so again in the fullness of time. Many were willing to take up arms when the signs of the times were clear enough.

Such hopes for divine assistance did not require the expectation of a Messiah. They did not even require the expectation that God’s final kingdom was about to be established. Thus we cannot say that Jewish hopes for freedom were necessarily ‘Messianic’, or even more generally eschatological. We cannot know, of the Jews who took up arms against Rome or followed a prophet, how many thought that the final kingdom was about to arrive. It is fair to say though, that they all looked for God’s assitance. The situation would be decisively changed only if God intervenes. Some, perhaps only a few, thought that in the near future He would establish His own reign on earth.

 

[MorningSong51]

Are you referring to Elijah the Prophet’s announcement regarding the coming of the Messiah? This also was not fulfilled, at least not literally. Some argue that John the Baptist was the returning Elijah, although he himself denied it. Jesus stated that the spirit of Elijah had returned but not the flesh. What do you make of all this?

Shalom,

I have many thoughts about all of this - and depending upon which Jewish congregation that you belong - it will make all these thoughts shift. You’re Jewish but from which congregation? Some are just waiting for the Messianic Era - the opening of peace in Jerusalem, some wait for the Messiah for Torah Knowledge and some wait for his coming with both thoughts. Again, it depends on which direction you and I can converse - if you’re Jewish do you believe that Jesus came and is the Messiah? King and Son of God aren’t much different, Meltzerboy - David and Solomon were also listed as God’s son “I will tell of the decree: the LORD said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee.” Psalm 2:7 or Psalm 89:27

So what do I think - many thoughts.


Genesis 1:27 - Some say that the first account of Adam was his spirit and the 2nd account was flesh - Genesis 2:18 and 21

They also say, in Genesis – chapter 12, 1 **The LORD had said (1st account) ** to Abram, “Leave your country, your kindred and your father’s house. In Genesis 15 the opening verse said “After this, the word of **the LORD came to Abram in a vision (2nd account) **: ” and in Genesis 17, the opening verse says, “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, **the LORD appeared to him and said (3rd account) **, “I am God Almighty (I am El Shaddai); walk before me faithfully and be blameless. (Luke 1:5-7) 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

After Genesis, God “no longer” appears to man/or to any the prophets. In all the other chapters it states “in a vision” (see 2nd account) or that God “spoke” with the prophets (1st account). What does it state in Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

Now with Moses, God had shown Moses all of his glory, as scripture said, “Now show me your glory."– After Jacob and after Moses, did any prophet “see” God or “walk” with God? “And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

*** (3rd account) John 1:14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

---

Did you read anything out of that website that I gave you in the last post? There are commentaries/articles that are listed regarding what’s going on in Israel - especially on the Gaza that are according to prophecy. You have to look around the site…

 

[MorningSong51]

Are you referring to Elijah the Prophet’s announcement regarding the coming of the Messiah? This also was not fulfilled, at least not literally. Some argue that John the Baptist was the returning Elijah, although he himself denied it. Jesus stated that the spirit of Elijah had returned but not the flesh. What do you make of all this?

continue:

Why will Elijah the Prophet herald the Messiah?

• Elijah’s purpose is to come and tell everyone their lineage. According to which tribe … I’ve got a question why is the Golden gate closed - or sealed up? The Golden Gate, as it is called in Christian literature, is the oldest of the current gates in Jerusalem’s Old City Walls. According to Jewish tradition, the Shekhinah (שכינה) (Divine Presence) used to appear through this gate, and will appear again when the Messiah comes (Ezekiel 44:1–3)

I started to read Ezekiel 44:1

Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed. 2 He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed. 3 Only the prince may sit down in it to eat his meal in the presence of the LORD. He must enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and leave by the same way. 4 Then he brought me by way of the north gate to the facade of the temple, and when I looked I saw the glory of the LORD filling the LORD’S temple, and I fell prone. 5 Then he said to me: Son of man, pay strict attention, look carefully, and listen intently to all that I will tell you about the statutes and laws of the LORD’S temple; be attentive in regard to those who are to be admitted to the temple and all those who are to be excluded from the sanctuary.

Why was this closed?

• The prophet who comes will have to identify the Messiah (as King of Israel) and to anoint him -but as with other questions; Who identifies the prophet as being the one who will identify the King of Israel also some sages say that Elijah will come before the coming of Mashiach - as well.
• In the era of the Messianic King, when his kingdom will be established and all of Israel will gather around him, all of them will have their pedigree determined by him, by means of the Holy Spirit that will rest upon him, as it is said, “He will sit as a refiner and purifier.”
• He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse. (see Deuteronomy 28:15)

With the death of Nehemiah ben Hushiel, the Judaic nation tried to grapple with the meaning of these events in terms of their literary heritage. According to Jewish tradition, the Messiah of Joseph would die. So Nehemiah must have been the Messiah of Joseph. This meant that the King Messiah was sure to follow. However, before the King Messiah would appear, he would be preceded by Elijah the Prophet. Their leaders said “A Prophet is about to arise; his time draws near. We shall follow him; and then we shall slay [our enemies] with [divine] slaughter…” As the common people became aware of the Prophet, “they spoke one to another – surely know that is the same Prophet whom the Jews warn us about.” LINK

Many Blessings back to you
Mary

 

[meltzerboy]

Correct. I happen to own a copy of the book (not with me at this time though). The problem with the assumption that the Jews had a single, homogeneous idea of what the Messiah would be like is that it assumes that Judaism was a monolithic entity at the time of Jesus, which was simply not the case. In fact, the reverse was true: there was a huge diversity among Jewish thought in those days, which even led some scholars to employ the term ‘JudaismS’ (in the plural). There is apparently no consistent pattern of one messianic expectation to be found among 1st-century Jews; indeed, on the contrary, there was a huge variety of concepts which are so fluid, ill-defined, and difficult to form into a coherent whole. There was no single view of the Messiah; on the contrary, each group which did entertain a messianic hope interpreted ‘Messiah’ in light of its historical experiences and reinterpreted Scripture accordingly. Any fixed and unitary concept of the Messiah according to one author actually involves an ahistorical synthesis of ideas found in later writings and retrojecting them in the period before AD 70.

Sanders theorizes that many Jews indeed desired freedom from Roman suzerainty and expected divine deliverance, but they varied on how redemption would occur. Some expected a messiah (and even then, no one exactly agreed on what he would be and what he would do, or even how many messiahs are there!), others expected a grand sign, still others sought for nothing more than a God-given courage for the righteous to act against the oppressor.

The image of David as a good king was central to the image of the royal Messiah, but there were also those who expected a prophetic Messiah a la Moses, or even an Aaronic, priestly one, or even a heavenly figure. In fact, there were also those who expected several Messiahs (such as the community at Qumran), or a Messiah which combined the various roles together (such as early Christianity). The Messiah(s) was pictured as whatever people most wanted him to be - be it a king, a savior, a priest, an invincible general, a prophet, or a teacher.

In a much broader sense, the term ‘messianic expectation’ were sometimes (misleadingly) applied to the belief that God would step in and intervene at human affairs, whether or not a Messiah is actually involved. When the revolt finally broke out in AD 66, many joined apparently because they believed that God was now ready to deliver them. to march on Jerusalem to restore order. Inexplicably though, he broke off the siege and retreated (apparently waiting for reinforcements), and his troops were defeated in an ambush at the Battle of Beth Horon, a result that shocked the Roman leadership. To many, this would have been a sign from heaven. Few, if any, believed that they could successfully revolt on their own; God, however, had saved them in the past, and He would do so again in the fullness of time. Many were willing to take up arms when the signs of the times were clear enough.

Such hopes for divine assistance did not require the expectation of a Messiah. They did not even require the expectation that God’s final kingdom was about to be established. Thus we cannot say that Jewish hopes for freedom were necessarily ‘Messianic’, or even more generally eschatological. We cannot know, of the Jews who took up arms against Rome or followed a prophet, how many thought that the final kingdom was about to arrive. It is fair to say though, that they all looked for God’s assitance. The situation would be decisively changed only if God intervenes. Some, perhaps only a few, thought that in the near future He would establish His own reign on earth.

Yes, there may be different versions regarding the criteria or features of the Messiah according to the several Jewish sects of the period (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and others), yet none of these criteria confirms or conforms to the Jesus-as-Messiah idea, a Savior Deity who sacrifices himself to redeem all humanity for their sins. The word itself, “Moshiach,” has no relation to this concept of Savior or Deity. The two-Messiah theory quite clearly, based on text and context, refers to two different Messiahs, rather than the same Messiah who returns a second time. The no-Messiah theory evidently does not support the Messiah as either King or Priest, but instead may or may not believe in a Messianic Age. The priestly-Messiah theory does not view the Messiah as divine but rather as a holy man who is learned in the Torah and focuses on the study and practice of its teachings, and who may also be a warrior. The Messiah-as-King theory regards the Messiah as a warrior-king who ushers in an era of peace by means of military conquest. Whichever theory one espouses–and the purpose of the exegesis of Hebrew Bible textual prophecies is to determine which theory is best supported–the nature of Jesus, particularly with respect to his death and resurrection, but also his birth and life, is not founded on these prophecies as interpreted by Jewish scholars in the original language and context of the Bible verses. Christian scholars, of course, disagree and point to Biblical passages–both in Hebrew and Greek–that they claim support the nature of Jesus as the Messiah. They also point out that the Masoretic text, currently the standard version of the Hebrew Bible, differs from the Septuagint, which, they affirm, characterizes the Messiah as more of a Savior than a priest or king. And so hangs the tale…

 

[PJM]

=thunderbolt94

I was going through the list of requirements according to Judaism that states the requirements for messiahship.

I’ll TRY but space may not permit a reply to the entire list, so I’ll address them as you presented them.

Isaiah 1:26: “And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City.” Some Jews interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established.

This speaks of Jerusalem BEFORE the second time it was SACKED about 500 BC.

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)

This refers to the Risen King, J.C. and Mt. 28:19-20 where He commands them to TEACH ALL THE WORLD." It’s still a work in progress.

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1)

***He is Lk. 1:32 ***

The “spirit of the Lord” will be upon him, and he will have a “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)

KEPT in context this is true. 1. Christ Human nature certainly had “FTL” and in His Divine nature this was taught by Christ.

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

TRUE Mt. 16:18-19

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

True. The terms “BC” and “AD” prove this

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

True there are over 1 billion Catholics in the world

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

All were invited back, not all accepted. This was written 2-3 hundred years before the Second sacking of Jerusalem

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

Death here speaks of sin. 1st. Cor. 15:55-56

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

Isaiah here makes reference to those who MERIT heaven. Offered to ALL, accepted by SOME

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

TRUE see Lk,. Chapters 1 and 2

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

Both of these verses reference Christ Passion. SEE Mt. 27:54

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

In CONTEXT this speaks of conversions to Christ

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

In CONTEXT this is part of a MORAL story being told to SHAME them

The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[/QIOTE]

WHAT? Jer. 31: 31-33 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

This refers to the Basic knowledge of right and wrong. [Intrinsic evils]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

A spiritual metaphor for Spiritual enlightment

So does Jesus meet all these requirements? If so, could someone explain in depth and maybe point me in the right direction?

There is NOT enough space for brief, much less in depth reply.