Does just war doctrine justify using violence to stop abortions?

[tskrobacz]

grave matter- check

violence must be last resort- debateable. Legal abortions may one day be overturned, but many of the unborn will die in the meantime.

prospects of success - also debateable.

violence can not produce greater evil than it is eliminating- debateable.

I’m curious as to what you all think.

Are you promoting violence against the abortee or aborter to save the aborted? In an eye for an eye world, all the world is blind.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Are you promoting violence against the abortee or aborter to save the aborted? In an eye for an eye world, all the world is blind.

“Eye for an eye” is about punishment, not defense of the innocent. If a killer is attempting to kill my son or daughter, you’d better bet I’d be willing to kill them.

 

[Elizium23]

If anyone were to go into an abortion clinic and injure or kill a doctor to prevent an abortion that would not only be a criminal act it would be a sin of sin matter, absolutely against Church teachings.
Such an act does not come under just war doctrine or defence of human life.

What if your daughter is strapped down to a gurney and screaming for help and pleading for the life of her unborn child? What if your daughter is 19 years old? 11 years old?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

If anyone were to go into an abortion clinic and injure or kill a doctor to prevent an abortion that would not only be a criminal act it would be a sin of sin matter, absolutely against Church teachings.
Such an act does not come under just war doctrine or defence of human life.

This appears to be a profoundly inconsistent teaching.

Question: do you believe that the fetus has the same right to life as an adult?

 

[thistle]

What if your daughter is strapped down to a gurney and screaming for help and pleading for the life of her unborn child? What if your daughter is 19 years old? 11 years old?

I am saying that not only would injuring or killing the abortion doctor be a crime it would be a sin of grave matter.
The Church clearly teaches you cannot do an evil to achieve a good.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I am saying that not only would injuring or killing the abortion doctor be a crime it would be a sin of grave matter.
The Church clearly teaches you cannot do an evil to achieve a good.

Killing a person who is about to kill another is not an evil. Would you stand by while a gunman killed thousands of people? Or would you attack him?

 

[thistle]

Killing a person who is about to kill another is not an evil. Would you stand by while a gunman killed thousands of people? Or would you attack him?

Going into an abortion clinic and killing the doctor is most certainly an evil.

 

[N0X3x]

Going into an abortion clinic and killing the doctor is most certainly an evil.

What I had in mind was a synchronized attack on nationwide abortion clinics. The people inside would be given five to ten minutes to evacuate at gunpoint, and then the clinics blown up.

minimal human deaths while maximizing the property damage to abortion providers. I think that in this scenario, the ability for abortion providers to provide abortions would drastically decrease, to the point that more people (unborn) would die if this plan wasn’t carried out.

 

[mikekle]

What I had in mind was a synchronized attack on nationwide abortion clinics. The people inside would be given five to ten minutes to evacuate at gunpoint, and then the clinics blown up.

minimal human deaths while maximizing the property damage to abortion providers. I think that in this scenario, the ability for abortion providers to provide abortions would drastically decrease, to the point that more people (unborn) would die if this plan wasn’t carried out.

While this does seem like a logical plan, it would only be the beginning, after this ‘coordinated attack’ happened, you can be sure law enforcement and the US Govt would step in to protect their evil thing, they would use the media to sway the publics opinion about those who initiated the attack, you would see neighbors calling police on other neighbors to turn them in for being pro-lifers, it would be the start of a type of civil war, and would depend greatly on what the CC’s position was I think, if the Pope stood behind it, that would spark all out war against Christianity.

Then again, Jesus did say we would go thru times like this, so maybe that will be the spark that ignites it? I still say though, if you look at the reasons for a war being justified, a ‘war’ against abortion like this, would be justified imo.

This would put alot of people on the spot too, Im sure some christians would be more concerned about their own quality of life, and suddenly start saying they oppose it, again, Jesus warned of this too, people would deny their faith if it came down to life or death…interesting to think about.

All this being said, I dont think this would ever happen though, I just dont see enough christians being that strong-willed to do such a thing, even if it was for the greater good.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Going into an abortion clinic and killing the doctor is most certainly an evil.

Question: is a fetus just as valuable as a human infant outside the womb?

 

[thistle]

Question: is a fetus just as valuable as a human infant outside the womb?

That is not the question. The question is does the Church allow the evil of vigilantism? No that is an evil. You may do commit an evil deed to achieve a good.
What is next? We know smoking kills people. Are we then going to assassinate shopkeepers who sell cigarettes or the CEO’s of companies who manufacture them???

Killing an abortion doctor is NOT self defense or defending the innocent. It is just as much an act of murder as is the abortion.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Not only, as pointed out already, are individuals not allowed to apply the ‘just war’ doctrine to themselves, but an individual cannot declare war against anyone. Not in any legal sense. We can file grievances. We can sue. We can bring criminal charges. That’s all.

Following your line of reasoning, you could declare war on anyone that you disagree with.

Let’s look at it from a different angle. Abortionists are non-combatants. In fact, because they are medical personnel, they have special status as non-combatants. Do you really think there is any court in the world that would recognize a war fought against medical personnel? By international law (Geneva Convention) there are special protections. Please remember that abortionists typically do have regular patients and do abortions as a side job.

The only legal, moral, and appropriate approach is through the court system. By definition, what you are proposing is terrorism.

 

[mikekle]

That is not the question. The question is does the Church allow the evil of vigilantism? No that is an evil. You may do commit an evil deed to achieve a good.
What is next? We know smoking kills people. Are we then going to assassinate shopkeepers who sell cigarettes or the CEO’s of companies who manufacture them???

Killing an abortion doctor is NOT self defense or defending the innocent. It is just as much an act of murder as is the abortion.

Well, what in your opinion, would be a just cause for going to war?

 

[PolarGuy]

Priests for Life’s mission statement includes that they “reject all violence.”

Just sayin…

 

[Prodigal_Son]

That is not the question. The question is does the Church allow the evil of vigilantism? No that is an evil. You may do commit an evil deed to achieve a good.
What is next? We know smoking kills people. Are we then going to assassinate shopkeepers who sell cigarettes or the CEO’s of companies who manufacture them???

Killing an abortion doctor is NOT self defense or defending the innocent. It is just as much an act of murder as is the abortion.

“Vigilantism” is, by definition, taking retributive justice into your own hands. It does not apply to the attempt to PREVENT a crime.

Were the people on Flight 93, who attacked the hijackers of a plane, vigilantes? Of course not. They were attempting to save innocent lives.

I agree with you that it is not WISE to kill abortionists, given the current political climate. But, however unwise, it is not morally wrong.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Priests for Life’s mission statement includes that they “reject all violence.”

Just sayin…

That is a good strategic principle. But surely they would agree that a fetus is *worth *being defended through the use of violence – unless they deny that a fetus is of equal dignity to a baby.

We all would – I hope – being willing to defend a baby through the use of violent action. So long as our action actually saved the baby’s life. What makes a fetus different?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Abortionists are non-combatants.

Nonsense. That’s like calling the people who ran concentration camps “non-combatants”.

If they weren’t combatants, they wouldn’t be killing people.

 

[PolarGuy]

I am appalled often by this board.

But today we’ve reached a new low.

And it’s REALLY low.

It’s not morally wrong to kill abortionists? We need some sort of “coordinated attack” on clinics?

The Church; Priests for Life; people like Cardinal O’Connor who I quoted, all disagree.

Much of this thread disgraces Catholics as supporting this stuff, and posters who advocate it ought to be ashamed of themselves.

This isn’t Catholicism.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It’s not morally wrong to kill abortionists?

I’m very puzzled. Is it intrinsically wrong for me to kill a person who is about to kill my baby?

Please. Don’t. Dodge. Answer. The. Question.

 

[PolarGuy]

If I dodge the question…are you going to call me a murderer and advocate for a coordinated attack on me?

Killing an abortionist is wrong: so says the Church; cardinal o’connor; Priests for Life.

Please. Don’t. Dodge. That. Statement.

Or do you think your vigilantism is morally correct and they are all wrong? You can’t both be correct (they are; you aren’t; and this grows more disgraceful by the post).