Does Knowledge In Place Of Faith Remove Free Will

[Edy]

I recently made this point in a discussuon. Faith is necessary for Free Will to exist. Atheists often ask, why doesnt God just show himself. I think if he did then our Free Will would be lost.

I picture a scenario where I have the choice to follow one of two guys. One says if I follow him I will experience eternal joy, and the other offers eternal pain and misery. Personally I don’t have a choice as id follow the first guy, my Free Will is trumped by my experiences of joy and pain.

But by remaining in the background, now my Free Will is in tact and I can find faith. Through faith I can choose who to follow.

Is this a correct assumption, that faith is necessary for the preservation of free will. As knowledge is detrimental to to concept of Free Will?

 

[Edward_H]

The intellect is a faculty.
The will is a faculty.

We put knowledge in our intellect to use to do the good.
Our will directs our being and its faculties, hopefully informed by the intellect, but often it has to operate on faith too.

Faith allows us to love “beyond reason”.

 

[Wm777]

Catholic understanding of free will is based upon obedience to the catechism, so you could arrive at free will either by faith or knowledge of the faith.

It’s probably more often the latter, however, since abandoning the catechism would seem risky.

 

[Genesis315]

No.

You haven’t lost free will when you have certainty. Choosing a known good over a known evil does not mean you do not have free will. It means you have an intellect and you have exercised your will toward the good. .

Faith is not a lack of certainty. In fact, God’s existence can be known with certainty without faith. Faith is believing what He has revealed based only on His authority. Faith gives certainty in its own sphere.

 

[Gabika50]

No, they go hand in hand.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

why doesnt God just show himself. I think if he did then our Free Will would be lost.

I dunno.
He showed Himself to Adam and Eve and they sinned anyway

 

[Wozza]

I picture a scenario where I have the choice to follow one of two guys. One says if I follow him I will experience eternal joy, and the other offers eternal pain and misery. Personally I don’t have a choice as id follow the first guy, my Free Will is trumped by my experiences of joy and pain.

That IS your choice.

 

[Richca]

We cannot remove our free will for it is an essential component of being human and our human nature. We are made in the image and likeness of God principally in our spiritual immortal soul which possesses the spiritual powers of intellect and will or free will. Neither the one, intellect or will, exist without the other and they work in tandem with each other. Faith is an assent of the intellect to all that God has revealed but it also involves the free will because it is a choice. We assent to faith because we will to do so through freely cooperating with God’s grace. We can also freely choose to not assent to faith which is the choice of atheists. Natural knowledge which is in the intellect involves the will too. We can choose or will to learn and acquire knowledge or we can will not too. We can will to think or we can will not too. The acts of the intellect and will are reciprocal, i.e., they depend on each other. For example, one the one hand, we use our free will to think and acquire knowledge by willing to do so or not to do so. On the other hand, the will does not will anything without ‘knowing’ as it were what to will. It is the ‘job’ of the intellect to know under the aspect of good what it is the will is to will or not will which is called the object of the will and which is presented to the will by the intellect. The object of the intellect is truth and knowledge while the object of the will is the good.

 

[fhansen]

Our wills will freely desire that which is most appealing. They’re not obliterated by obtaining the object of their desire, rather they’re satisfied by it. And, as Aquinas, I believe, put it, “God, alone, satisfies.”

We’re here to “find” that God, even as His initiative must come first. We’re here to become jaded by the offerings and values of this world, to become jaded by sin and evil so that we may ultimately run, like Prodigals, back to the Father who waits with open arms, having finally, fully, chosen good over evil, life over death. We must learn the why and how to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

The more we know Him, the more we love Him. This relationship is to begin here, but is fully confirmed and consummated in the next life:
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13:12

 

[Vico]

…
Is this a correct assumption, that faith is necessary for the preservation of free will. As knowledge is detrimental to to concept of Free Will?

In the process of justification, the part of the adult is the free will cooperation will with God’s preventing and helping grace.

Catechism

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom . …

Council of Trent

If anyone says that man’s free will, moved and awakened by God, does in no manner co-operate when it assents to God, Who excites and calls it, thereby disposing and preparing itself to receive the grace of justification; and (if anyone says) that it cannot dissent if it wishes, but that, like some inanimate thing, it does nothing whatever, and only remains passive, let him be anathema.

 

[midori]

The angels had Free Will before the Fall, too, right? They were able to see God, although not necessarily enjoying the full Beatific Vision. Yet many of them used their Free Will to fall as well, knowing full well what it meant.

So if a significant number of angels are able to Fall, despite their interactions with God and superior knowledge and understanding about the nature of Reality and the consequences of the rejection of God, I’m not even sure that being able to see God and fully understand the consequences of the rejection of God would ensure that 100% of humanity would necessarily choose God, if placed under similar circumstances.

 

[Edy]

Another assumption…
I would not sacrifice my children for God based on faith alone. I’m a convert and although my faith is solid, I couldn’t do it. As I understand, I would be sinning to disobey.

Based on the discussions I have with many atheists, I highly doubt they would make the sacrifice either.

My assumption is that with the knowledge of Gods existence and his presence, most of us would probably have the will of Abraham. If we knew with certainty rather than faith, that our children would go straight to heaven then it would be an easy task.

This observation is hypothetical but I believe it true enough to influence at least 90% of atheists. And even the Satanic worshipers may change their mind about who they follow if they knew Satan’s intentions were real.

These hypothetical observations seem to show that Free Will is trumped when faith is replaced with knowledge. When absolute knowledge of God’s existence and Will is known, then obedience is no longer a choice, it’s a certainty.

The obedience I can observe in these scenarios is similar to someone holding a gun to your head. You would do exactly what they say. The only difference is no one can jump in to stop him. Free Will is forfeit.

 

[Gorgias]

I recently made this point in a discussuon. Faith is necessary for Free Will to exist

Pardon?

Free will is part of human nature. It does not require faith in order to exist.

(Now, faith does play a part in how we use our free will, but free will doesn’t depend on faith for existence.)

 

[Delusioned]

Is this a correct assumption, that faith is necessary for the preservation of free will. As knowledge is detrimental to to concept of Free Will?

Actually, one could more reasonably argue that the exact opposite is true. That a lack of knowledge inhibits our free will rather than permits it.

I picture a scenario where I have the choice to follow one of two guys. One says if I follow him I will experience eternal joy, and the other offers eternal pain and misery. Personally I don’t have a choice as id follow the first guy, my Free Will is trumped by my experiences of joy and pain.

Let’s assume that we had no knowledge whatsoever of what these two guys were offering, what basis would we then have by which to choose between them? It would seem that free will is meaningless when one has too little information upon which to base it. A choice made with no discernible difference between the outcomes, equates to no more than random chance.

But in such a case, is it ever possible to have too much information? If not, then why doesn’t God make His presence unmistakably clear? Why does He limit the amount of information that we have available to us? If knowledge is the basis of our choice, then why does God limit it?

 

[Richca]

But in such a case, is it ever possible to have too much information? If not, then why doesn’t God make His presence unmistakably clear? Why does He limit the amount of information that we have available to us? If knowledge is the basis of our choice, then why does God limit it?

Well, for one thing, a finite creature has only the capacity for finite knowledge. So God needs to temper the knowledge of himself to the natures of creatures which are finite and whom will always be so. God is infinite and creatures are finite and there is an infinite distance between them. It’s like the eye of an owl which is blinded by the light from the sun. In the same way, the infinite ‘light’ of God’s being blinds any created intellect, human or angelic, in heaven or on earth. The beatific vision itself is above the capacity of any created intellect, its a supernatural vision and knowledge of God, face to face, but still tempered to the capacity of created and finite intellects though the object of this knowledge which is God is infinite. Even in heaven, we will never know God as he knows himself or we would be God. We will be filled with wonder for eternity gazing upon God’s infinite being which has no beginning or end.

I believe God has sufficiently and reasonably made his presence known to us here on earth through creation and divine revelation especially through Jesus Christ. Consider all the miracles Jesus wrought and his resurrection from the dead. The Church has had many saints too who have experienced God in extraordinary manners such as supernatural visions and other mystical graces. The Blessed Virgin Mary has made a number of supernatural appearances to various people and recently such as at Fatima.

Also, to much knowledge can puff up or make one prideful as St Paul says “knowledge puffs up but charity edifieth”. And it is written “God giveth grace to the humble but resisteth the proud”. Knowledge that does not lead one to God and to heaven, our eternal home, is virtuously useless.

 

[Delusioned]

I believe God has sufficiently and reasonably made his presence known to us here on earth through creation and divine revelation especially through Jesus Christ. Consider all the miracles Jesus wrought and his resurrection from the dead. The Church has had many saints too who have experienced God in extraordinary manners such as supernatural visions and other mystical graces. The Blessed Virgin Mary has made a number of supernatural appearances to various people and recently such as at Fatima.

You may look upon these things and see evidence of God, but I on the other hand, don’t. And as I’m certainly not alone in such skepticism, it would seem that the evidence is insufficient to render a clear judgment either way. So why would God provide a measure of evidence that’s sufficient for some, but not sufficient for others?

There’s a broad line between skepticism and faith. Are we to be judged by which side of that line we happen to fall on?

 

[chessnerd321]

Is this a correct assumption, that faith is necessary for the preservation of free will. As knowledge is detrimental to to concept of Free Will?

No. It seems to be directly refuted by the Church’s understanding of angels. They have free will but had knowledge of God and his justice.

 

[Edy]

Angels are not as timid as we. They don’t have bodies, which means they don’t share our mortal concerns. They care not about pain because they feel no pain.

The fallen Angel Satan, wouldn’t care if he burns for all eternity. Angels have knowledge of God but have nothing to lose so denying God is less of a worry to them.

 

[Edy]

Agreed. But my point is that by replacing faith with unprecedent knowledge, Free Will is forfeit.

Some can lose faith. But you dont lose knowledge (Generally). On faith, we still have the choice to exercise our Free Will. On knowledge, we obey our minds mortal protection instinct.

I didn’t think to explain this from an atheist perspective… and TBH I don’t know how to. When considering our ability to make our own decisions, knowledge creates limitation on the number of decisions we make.

For example,
Wife makes a hamburger. She says it’s laced with poisen. If she’s said it jokingly then you may have faith she’s lying and decide to eat the burger. But if instead, she poisoned it in front of you, then your decision is guided by knowledge.

From a religious perspective, atheists are a sleep. Their Free Will is more susceptible to being commandeered by Satan. One example would be Einstein and his atomic theory. He thought he was doing mankind a great justice by teaching us about atoms, but he also gave Satan more power. The power to obliterate entire cities.

 

[Sophie111]

From a religious perspective, atheists are a sleep. …One example would be Einstein and his atomic theory. He thought he was doing mankind a great justice by teaching us about atoms, but he also gave Satan more power. The power to obliterate entire cities.

Not sure about this.
Why do you think Einstein was an Atheist? I believe his attitude is best described as Agnostic.

Einstein called himself an agnostic rather than an atheist, stating: “I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal god is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”[13] In an interview published by the German poet George Sylvester Viereck, Einstein stated, “I am not an Atheist.”[10] According to Prince Hubertus, Einstein said, “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”[25]
Wikipedia.

From a religious perspective, atheists are a sleep. Their Free Will is more susceptible to being commandeered by Satan. He thought he was doing mankind a great justice by teaching us about atoms, but he also gave Satan more power.

Your model of how “Satan” works in the world and re knowledge seems a little strange.
I do not agree that greater human knowledge is associated with loss of free will, faith and a greater evil in the world if that is what you are saying.

The seeking of truth in itself is noble. It is what we do with knowledge (a decision of the will) that is evil. So greater knowledge can be for great evil or great good. It is the heart that decides which way it goes not knowledge itself.

Sure, great knowledge or authority can puffeth up. But that is not an intrinsic relationship but an associative one - hardly surprising given the Fall.