Does Knowledge In Place Of Faith Remove Free Will

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Einstein understood that we can observe the Laws of physics figure out how they work, but we will never know why they work. He thought of them as being books in a foreign language that we could decipher. But these books are infinitely large in an infinite library. He asks the question, do these books have an author?

Satan’s greatest trick was convincing the world he doesn’t exist. Atheist or agnostic, Einstein doesn’t believe in the devil and therefore doesn’t know about his intent to destroy mankind.

If mankind had all the knowledge there is to know, it’s power would be used for ransom. The world would be destroyed. Imagine if Kim Jung Un baught it.
 
Edy said:
I recently made this point in a discussuon. Faith is necessary for Free Will to exist. Atheists often ask, why doesnt God just show himself. I think if he did then our Free Will would be lost.
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We might well say that free will would be “determined” - but that is not the same as saying it is lost.

I believe in heaven we cannot do other than to love God - but the will is still free.
 
Not quite sure what you are on about.
You do seem to see Satan everywhere.
Most Christians worry about people not believing in God rather than not believing in Satan.
Me, I see God everywhere, I think that is a more healthy way to start from 😀
 
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I see Satan every time I look to my past. Pulling my strings and laughing. Entering my home through my agnostic belief, hurting my Catholic wife and children.

Since converting I’ve tried to give up my faith, but found myself asking Jesus to leave me alone. I had the Free Will to buy pornography, and to do actions I thought would push him away. But instead of leaving, I heard him more frequently asking me to follow.

I have the choice to enjoy my fleshly lusts. Lust for drugs and alcohol, pornography and all the rest. But I choose to exercise my Free Will and follow the Lord.

My relationship with our Lord is confusing. The more I feel I please him, the harder it is to hear him. When I need him most, his voice is as loud as talking to a friend. He helped me forgive those I thought I never could, even myself. He helps me recognise lust and I choose to deny or indulge.

Without the Lord I wouldn’t care to recognise lust. Why not indulge if it isn’t hurting anyone? I don’t care for an answer because I have faith that the Lord’s teachings on lust are in my best interests.

The Bible talks about the Earth being round. At a time when the Earth was thought to be flat. The religious knew the truth, through faith. The atheists found the truth eventually, but how many millions of atheists died with the belief that the Earth was flat? Does God exist? The atheists will find the truth eventually, but how many billions will have died not knowing?
 
Edy said:
The Bible talks about the Earth being round. At a time when the Earth was thought to be flat. The religious knew the truth, through faith. The atheists found the truth eventually, but how many millions of atheists died with the belief that the Earth was flat?
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This is another one of those misconceptions that people tend to believe without questioning, but it simply isn’t true. Not only did the ancient Greeks know that the world was round. They were fairly accurate in calculating just how big around it was.

Some of us actually question what we’re told, you should try it.
 
???
You’ve gone off on a tangent.
This is a philosophy forum, maybe try the Catholic Living one.
Edy said:
The Bible talks about the Earth being round. At a time when the Earth was thought to be flat. The religious knew the truth, through faith
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??? Another tangent.

In any case I believe you have confused flat round (ie a disc) with spherical round.
The men of faith in the Bible held to flat round.
The “atheists” (eg the Greeks) in fact held to spherical round as @Delusioned states above.
So you really don’t seem to know your history well enough to be coming out with these confident but deeply erroneous examples which contradict exactly what you try and use them to prove.

BTW The ancients also thought the earth was the centre of the solar system. They were wrong.
Millions of religious Jews and Christians died not knowing it is the sun.
So what?
 
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We can’t remove our free will for precisely the same reason that we can’t remove our hooves.
 
No tangent. The topic is about the relationship between Faith, knowledge and Free Will.

I don’t know how many ancient Greeks were atheists(Zues, Hades?) and im sure you don’t know either. The Antikythera Mechanism shows all the religious astrological correlations that they needed to predict. It also baffles modern day history. Our knowledge of the ancient Greeks is built on abojt 5% evidence and 95% faith. Talk to ten different historians and get ten different versions. It will take faith to decide who’s telling the truth.
 
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So when you can get your history right when it comes to the many mistakes in the Bible/Church/“men of faith” do come back to us.
 
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Given the popularity of flat Earth theory, when will anyone achieve your proposition? (Not my beleif)

Are you suggesting I just believe what my Government tells and teaches me?
 
Oh dear, now we have left Satan and are in to Government conspiracies it seems.
 
Not really, I said the conspiracy wasn’t my belief.
Our friend Delusioned said I should try asking questions. When I was agnostic, I asked every question I could. Thankfully I converted before flat Earth theory, but I see it popping up everywhere. If I were still agnostic then I would look into it. But now I realise I can never know for sure the answers to those type of questions.

The only absolute truth I may obtain as a mortal, is proven by Renee Descartes. I think therefore I am. I exist for certain. But every other question has a non-absolute answer.

When agnostic, I even questioned if the grass is green. I realised my answer was wrong and based on faith. The grass is not green, it appears green because it reflects the green spectrum of light. If anything, it’s every color except green, because it absorbs them more.

I ask if my hand is solid. Scientifically, it is made up of 99.99% empty space. Atoms move so fivourasly that the cluster of atoms inside my hand, make it appear to be solid. Much like a cartoon fools me into thinking it is animate. My hand appears to exist due to atomic animation.

The only way I could answer the flat Earth question with adaquite satisfaction in the absence of faith, is if I build a rocket and fly high enough to see it with my own two eyes. An answer that’s built on the faith of my senses. Any other answer is built on the faith in others.

My perception of reality is proven only by my senses. But if they fool me even on the simplest of levels, how can I expect my senses to give the truth to complex questions like, is the Earth flat. The complexity is in not the answer it lacks but the infinite array of alternate questions it produces.
 
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Edy said:
why doesnt God just show himself. I think if he did then our Free Will would be lost.
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I think up to a point this is right. It would depend on how often God showed Himself and in what ways.

It’s quite easy to slip back into old habits and ways even on a daily basis. The ways that God shows Himself can be very subtle and it’s possible that the stimuli encountered constantly during the day can overwhelm those experiences. Thus free will can remain virtually untouched.

With other experiences God can show HImself in very powerful ways which are far harder to forget and can become great pillars to support faith over time, but these in a way can interfere with free will since having your subjective proof of God means that if you’re free will leads you to sin it is wilfull.

Free will also includes the freedom to behave in your own chosen specific way to practise fidelity to God of course, so the effect of God showing Himself so to speak does not have a detrimental effect if you actually choose to follow Him.
 
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Edy said:
But my point is that by replacing faith with unprecedent knowledge, Free Will is forfeit.
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I would disagree with that approach. Free will is all about the facility to make decisions personally and without encumbrance. (I’m in the camp that asserts that it’s about ability to make a choice, not about ability to carry out a choice. That’s freedom of action, and it’s a whole 'nother thing.)

Having made the choice, then, one does not lose one’s free will. Further, you seem to be saying that the type of (name removed by moderator)ut to a decision affects free will. I disagree. Whether the (name removed by moderator)ut is a tenet of the faith, firmly believed, or a piece of unimpeachable data, or even the plea of a loved one… you continue to have the ability to accept or reject that (name removed by moderator)ut. You continue to have the ability to choose as you wish. Free will doesn’t go away – but, you do have the opportunity to process your (name removed by moderator)uts as you choose. (Which, to tell the truth, is really a demonstration that, in that choice, free will continues to operate!)
Edy said:
When considering our ability to make our own decisions, knowledge creates limitation on the number of decisions we make.
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No… knowledge does no such thing. You might reach the decision to utilize that knowledge, and in doing so, you might decide that some courses of action are more reasonable than others… but the knowledge itself does not force any action on you.
Edy said:
But if instead, she poisoned it in front of you, then your decision is guided by knowledge.
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It’s still a free decision, guided by free will. You’re perfectly free to decide to eat the burger.
 
FredBloggs said:
We can’t remove our free will for precisely the same reason that we can’t remove our hooves.
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Speak for yourself, Mr Ed… 😉 . 🤣
Lee1 said:
why doesnt God just show himself. I think if he did then our Free Will would be lost.
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I have more faith in my atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters. They’d still find a reason to disbelieve, I think.

And, to your point, @Edy: no, free will wouldn’t be lost. We’d lose the opportunity to believe (it would be replaced with the ability to know, intellectually and experientially), but we’d still have to make a choice whether to accept the data.
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Edy said:
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Is this a correct assumption, that faith is necessary for the preservation of free will. As knowledge is detrimental to to concept of Free Will?
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There are interesting dogmas taught by the Catholic Church:
  • The Grace of Faith is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)
  • Actual Grace is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)
It was Pope Pius V that condemned the propositions of Baius:
Omnia opera infidelium sunt peccata et philsophorum virtutes sunt vitia. (All works of infidels are sins, and the virtues of philosophers are vices)
Liberum arbitrium, sine gratiae Dei adiutorio, non nisi ad peccandum valet. (Free will, without the help of God’s grace acts only in order to sin.)
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Edy said:
The fallen Angel Satan, wouldn’t care if he burns for all eternity. Angels have knowledge of God but have nothing to lose so denying God is less of a worry to them.
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The loss of Goodness Himself isn’t something for angels to worry about? Angels don’t suffer from hell? You’re losing me on those points.
 
So much for the original topic.
Not really into stream of consciousness “discussions” sorry.
 
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