Does LDS doctrine of eternal progression mean there is life on other planets?

[majick275]

Those LDS who have gone through the Temple Ceremony have been taught that this earth is a “new world” and that there have been other worlds on which Satan has plied his craft. I thought about this as I was reading some of the posts on this forum regarding eternal progression and looked up these passages in some of my old LDS books.

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt (1811-1881):

• “As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones” (The Seer, p. 37). *

LDS Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith:

“We are not the only people that the Lord has created. We have brothers and sisters on other earths. They look like us because they, too, are the children of God and were created in his image, for they are also his offspring” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:62).

With the many stories we read about UFO’s and Alien visits, I wonder if LDS believe that there is intelligent life on other planets and if so what that means to us on this earth.

 

[Mom_of_5]

When I first met my husband, (then LDS) he tried to convince me that there are MANY planets inhabited with people just like ourselves. An old LDS friend tried to convince me to take the six lessons so my hubby and I could marry in the Temple so that hubby could progress to his godhood. I aked him who DH would be “god” over and was told that we would have our own place like “earth”. My girl friend tells me she will be very busy with her “spirit children” when she and her DH pass on to Celestial heaven.

Want more?

Love and peace

Mom of 5

 

[majick275]

This was still being taught fairly recently. I wonder how many current LDS are aware of this and what their thoughts are. Here is some more on it.

President Joseph Fielding Smith, in his book: Man, His Origin and Destiny, pp 276-277 :

. . . does it not appear to you that it is a foolish and ridiculous notion that when God created this earth he had to be-gin with a speck of protoplasm, and take millions of years, if not billions, to bring conditions to pass by which his sons and daughters might obtain bodies made in his image? Why not the shorter route and transplant them from another earth as we are taught in the scriptures?

Doctrines of Salvation, Vol 1:139-140, (President Smith again):

I tell you, life did not commence upon this earth spontan-eously. Its origin was not here. Life existed long before our solar system was called into being. The fact is, there never was a time when man—made in the image of God, male and female—did not exist…
The Lord has given us the information regarding his creations, and now he has made many earths, for there never was a beginning, never was a time when man did not exist somewhere in the universe, and when the time came for this earth to be peopled, the Lord, our God, transplanted upon it from some other earth, the life which is found here.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

With the many stories we read about UFO’s and Alien visits, I wonder if LDS believe that there is intelligent life on other planets and if so what that means to us on this earth.

There are indeed references in LDS scripture indicating that there are other inhabited planes in the universe, but it has nothing to do with “eternal progression” (whatever that is supposed to mean!):

Moses 1:

29 And he {Moses} beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.

30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

---

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

Abraham 3:

11 Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made;

12 And he said unto me: My son, my son (and his hand was stretched out), behold I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon mine eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many; and they multiplied before mine eyes, and I could not see the end thereof.

13 And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me: Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me: Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven.

14 And it was in the night time when the Lord spake these words unto me: I will multiply thee, and thy seed after thee, like unto these; and if thou canst count the number of sands, so shall be the number of thy seeds.

All of these planets and stars, however, were created by none other than the One and Only God of the universe, not by people supposedly undergoing “eternal progression”. Furthermore, Joseph Smith taught, and modern scripture affirms, that Jesus Christ was not only the Savior and Redeemer of this planet and its inhabitants, but of all of God’s creations and their inhabitants:

D&C 76:

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father–

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten {by virtue of the Atonement} sons and daughters unto God.

---

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

So the idea that people undergoing “eternal progression” will have spirit kids in heaven, and then create a planet for them and make a devil and a savior for them is a great load of nonsense.

As far as UFOs are concerned, I believe that even form a purely scientific point of view, the statistical likelihood that there must be intelligent life on other planets is so high that it would be banal to deny it. The latest estimate I believe was that the total number of stars in the universe (each of which could be a solar system) is ten times greater than the total number of the grains of sand on this planet. (Don’t ask me how they calculated it!) But I doubt if there will be any UFOs. God has set bounds for these intelligences beyond which they cannot pass.

amgid

 

[amgid]

majick275:

This was still being taught fairly recently. I wonder how many current LDS are aware of this and what their thoughts are. Here is some more on it.

President Joseph Fielding Smith, in his book: Man, His Origin and Destiny, pp 276-277 :

. . . does it not appear to you that it is a foolish and ridiculous notion that when God created this earth he had to be-gin with a speck of protoplasm, and take millions of years, if not billions, to bring conditions to pass by which his sons and daughters might obtain bodies made in his image? Why not the shorter route and transplant them from another earth as we are taught in the scriptures?

I have never come across such a doctrine taught in LDS scripture.

amgid

 

[majick275]

Yet a Mormon “prophet” claimed it was so in that quote.

I understand you chose not accept the term “eternal progression” as LDS doctrine and believe that it is “undefined” in the “standard works”. That being the case I believe you hve seen the term used in current lesson manuals and in those same books have seen it linked the king follet discourse. I submit to you that numerous LDs leaders have in fact taught exactly what you reject. (multiple planets with their own gods, tempters, etc.) Here are some good examples:

Milton R. Hunter, First Council of the Seventy
:* “…Joseph explained… that the Gods were to be parents of spirit children just as our Heavenly Father and Mother were the parents of the people of this earth.” (The Gospel Through the Ages, 1958, p. 120)*

Apostle Orson Pratt:

*"In the Heaven where our spirits were born, there are many Gods, each one of whom has his own wife or wives… Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters;… each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world… where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones… The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited. (The Seer, March 1853, p. 37)
*

President Brigham Young:

“Sin is upon every earth that ever was created,… Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof… pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 14, p. 71-72)

Apostle Orson Pratt:

“If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345)

As these things were taught in general conference by the sustained prophets, seers and revelators surely they carry some doctrinal authority. I find Joseph Fielding Smiths words especially critical as he claims that it is taught in scripture. I find your scriptures on Jesus being saved for “all” to refer only to the “all” that Heavenly Father created. (leaving ample room for other Fathers, etc.) We could easily slide into Elohim vs. Michael and thus Adam-God on this but I’ll save that for another thread.

I tend to agree with you (for the most part) on the scientific probability of extraterrestrial inhabitants. I have no clue what “boundaries” God would place on other beings though. Fascinating subject.

 

[majick275]

Here are some more detailed quotes:

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48:

• The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.*

And here we see Joseph Smiths explanation of the “revelation” he received (D&C 132)

Milton R. Hunter, Pearl of Great Price Commentary, p.144-145:

• Later the Prophet Joseph explained what the revelation [D&C 132] meant by the statement, “which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.” He pointed out that the Gods were to be parents of spirit-children just as our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother were the parents of the people of this earth. Following are the words of the Prophet:
  
  Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, …they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the Priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.*

Journal of Discourses, Vol.2, p.85 - p.86, Orson Hyde, October 6, 1854:

• When the servants of God and their wives go to heaven there is an eternal union, and they will multiply and replenish the world to which they are going.*

and most explicit of all:

B. H. Roberts, The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, p.276-284 ( approvingly quoting Orson Pratt):

‘How very plain it is when we once learn about our future heaven. We do not have to pray, according to the Methodists, for the Lord to take us to a land beyond time and space, the Saints, secure abode. How inconsistent to look for a heaven beyond space! The heaven of the Saints is something we can look forward to in the confident hope of realizing our inheritances and enjoying them forever, when the earth becomes sanctified and made new. And there, as here, we will spread forth, and multiply our children. How long? For eternity. What, resurrected Saints have children? Yes, the same as our God, who is the Father of our spirits; so you, if you are faithful to the end, will become fathers to your sons and daughters, who will be as innumerable as the sands upon the sea shore; they will be your children, and you will be their heavenly fathers, the same as our heavenly Father is Father to us, and they will belong to your kingdoms through all the vast ages of eternity, the same as we will belong to our father’s kingdom.’

That is what I was taught is meant by “eternal progression” when I was LDS. I have yet to see any of this refuted by any LDS GA.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

That is what I was taught is meant by “eternal progression” when I was LDS. I have yet to see any of this refuted by any LDS GA.

They have been. The refutation was given to you in posts #17 and #32 of the thread called “Can even a ‘true’ prophet have false revelations.” That is a refutation. But you persistently ignore them, turn a blind eye to them, and keep quoting me form a small group of former LDS GAs who have had a propensity to speculating on doctrine. You seem to think that by repeatedly quoting the same thing over and over again you will prove a point. I am afraid you are wrong. You are not doing yourself any favors by carrying on with people the dialogue of the deaf.

amgid

 

[majick275]

Those don’t even address this issue much less refute the. Last time I checked J. Reuben Clark never was authorized to pronounce doctrine, BY and Joseph Fielding Smith were.

No LDS prophet has “corrected” what these “prophets” proclaimed was scripturally supported doctrine on this subject.

 

[tkdnick]

majick275:

Those don’t even address this issue much less refute the. Last time I checked J. Reuben Clark never was authorized to pronounce doctrine, BY and Joseph Fielding Smith were.

No LDS prophet has “corrected” what these “prophets” proclaimed was scripturally supported doctrine on this subject.

Didn’t Hinckley recently say something to the effect of “well we don’t know much about that”?? I would consider that a refutation. Albeit a bad refutation that kinda just sweeps everything aside, but a refutation nonetheless.

 

[majick275]

Given his previous remarks on the subject in genral conference, I find his remarks to the media to be misleading at best. I think there is great difference between “we don’t know very much about that” and “that is wrong”. BTW he later (in general conference) distanced from the “i don’t know” remarks by claiming that folks shouldn’t get their info from the media.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

Those don’t even address this issue much less refute the.

They do.

Last time I checked J. Reuben Clark never was authorized to pronounce doctrine,

J. Reuben Clark was counsellor in the First Presidency, and jointly holds with the Prophet the keys of the presidency of the Church, and has as much “authorization” to make pronouncements on doctrine as any prophet or Apostle does.

BY and Joseph Fielding Smith were.

Joseph Fielding Smith was not yet the President of the Church when he wrote or spoke those materials which were later compiled into a book by Bruce R. McConkie, called the Doctrines of Salvation, from which you had quoted.

No LDS prophet has “corrected” what these “prophets” proclaimed was scripturally supported doctrine on this subject.

They have.

amgid

 

[majick275]

amgid:

They do.

NOT!

amgid:

J. Reuben Clark was counsellor in the First Presidency, and jointly holds with the Prophet the keys of the presidency of the Church, and has as much “authorization” to make pronouncements on doctrine as any prophet or Apostle does.

Yet you choose not accept the same authority for Sidney Rigdon or anyone else who disagrees with the church of amgid.

amgid:

Joseph Fielding Smith was not yet the President of the Church when he wrote or spoke those materials which were later compiled into a book by Bruce R. McConkie, called the Doctrines of Salvation, from which you had quoted…

So then he had no authority? If his statements were in error why didn’t he correct them when he was president?

amgid:

They have.

amgid

Where and when? Turn away from your false gods with their false prophets and quit persecuting God’s church.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Found this today:

In October 1976, twelfth Mormon president Spencer W. Kimball branded Brigham’s teaching “false doctrine.” He writes:
“We denounce [the Adam-God] theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.” Conference Report, p. 115 (October 1-3, 1976).

• Brigham Young:

“He is our Father- the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being…It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being;…” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pp. 333-4)

If Brigham Young was a false prophet, where does that leave Mormonism as the supposed “restored gospel”?

 

[majick275]

I wonder what if it is significant to any current LDS (in light of this topic) that both JS and BY taught that the moon is inhabited.

 

[tkdnick]

catholic-rcia:

Found this today:

In October 1976, twelfth Mormon president Spencer W. Kimball branded Brigham’s teaching “false doctrine.” He writes:
“We denounce [the Adam-God] theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.” Conference Report, p. 115 (October 1-3, 1976).

• Brigham Young:

“He is our Father- the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being…It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being;…” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pp. 333-4)

If Brigham Young was a false prophet, where does that leave Mormonism as the supposed “restored gospel”?

Interesting stuff rcia. What is the LDS response to this? How could BY have espoused something that was later deemed false doctrine and not be a false prophet?

 

[catholic-rcia]

“Interesting stuff rcia. What is the LDS response to this? How could BY have espoused something that was later deemed false doctrine and not be a false prophet?”

Before I became Catholic I had many thoughts on the afterlife, God, Jesus, life as it is on earth and so on. I did not know it then but I really was the center of my own universe, I thought I was pretty smart. But I do not beat myself up to much over the past because it did bring me to the treasure, to Christ. I can be very small in Him and be more content than I could have ever imagined. It is good to know that there are so many smarter than me. In a way I was a false prophet for many, many years. I was very much into the world, still am in many ways. But working on it by way of the Eucharist.

BY was no prophet, nor was Joseph Smith in any way shape or form. It was their own wisdom that caused so many inconstancies in what they all have said and written on. They are the true apostates in every sense. All of us are really no different than them. We need to honestly pray for them as they are truly just one of us.

We have the luxury of stumbling on to the way of the Cross. The only thing that is not false is Jesus. As you know we come to Him for nothing more than healing of our fallen nature while we breathe here on earth. It really is that simple. I have chosen to go down rather than up and it has worked miracles in my life. I think you know what I mean.

We have already had all the prophets we need wether true or false. It does not matter anymore now that we have Christ with us and in us. The only thing that matters is Him and helping others to find what we have found by Him being in our lives. I attend the RCIA here in Northern Utah. The best thing about it is that it is very much the real thing. Being a witness to others really finding the gravity of Jesus spans 2000 years one soul at a time. Breathtaking! Nothing better in this life. I say that in humility not to boast or offend anyone.

Unless you attend a dozen Masses or a years worth of study you will never really know. We have one (LDS) who 3 months ago was reluctant to learn this faith. I asked the question: How does the Crucifix in our Church make you feel? If it makes you feel un comfortable that is ok, just share your thoughts" She said it scared her at first, but that now she is getting it, a few tears fell in our chapel on that RCIA night.

this is the reality of what we all share together. To immerse ourselves into the death and resurection of Christ. If there ever was a Pearl of Great Price, we as Catholics should know this price well. We really should.

God Bless

 

[Ahimsa]

It seems that Mormon prophets can say lots of things, that aren’t necessarily true. This would imply that Mormon prophets are “prophetic” only under restricted circumstances. This idea reminds me of the Catholic idea that the Pope is infallible only under the restricted condition of speaking “ex cathedra”.

Just a thought.

 

[ex-mormon]

Ahimsa:

It seems that Mormon prophets can say lots of things, that aren’t necessarily true. This would imply that Mormon prophets are “prophetic” only under restricted circumstances. This idea reminds me of the Catholic idea that the Pope is infallible only under the restricted condition of speaking “ex cathedra”.

Just a thought.

The difference is when an LDS Prophet espouses heretical thought or teachings he is excused because he was not speaking Prophetically. When a Pope espouses heretical thought or teachings when he is not speaking “ex-cathedra” he is excommunicated for it.

ex-mo