Does life begins at conception?

[jokerman]

i didnt read all the replies but wanted to comment on the original analogy. in the scenario with the recipe and the cake, the recipe for human reproduction is a sperm and an egg which are both present and in place by the time you and your wife come out of the room. however, in the cake analogy you come out of the room with nothing in place, just a list of things that need to be put in place. its not the same at all.

its not a horrible analogy but you failed to identify the fertilized egg as the cake already in the oven!

for the guy who keeps talking about killing living things such as cheek cells and things. you need to understand what being pro-life means. pro-life means that we do not intentionally kill living human beings. the cells in your mouth are not in themselves human beings. obviously we kill all kinds of living things and most pro-lifers probably enjoy a good steak now and then. however the cow is not human beings and either the cells in your mouth.

 

[CharlesDarwin]

i didnt read all the replies but wanted to comment on the original analogy. in the scenario with the recipe and the cake, the recipe for human reproduction is a sperm and an egg which are both present and in place by the time you and your wife come out of the room. however, in the cake analogy you come out of the room with nothing in place, just a list of things that need to be put in place. its not the same at all.

its not a horrible analogy but you failed to identify the fertilized egg as the cake already in the oven!

for the guy who keeps talking about killing living things such as cheek cells and things. you need to understand what being pro-life means. pro-life means that we do not intentionally kill living human beings. the cells in your mouth are not in themselves human beings. obviously we kill all kinds of living things and most pro-lifers probably enjoy a good steak now and then. however the cow is not human beings and either the cells in your mouth.

and neither is a single cell resulting from egg and sperm conjoining. hence my point about its not a question of pro life or not pro life no one says intentionally killing human beings should be legal. but we disagree on what makes a person

 

[jokerman]

and neither is a single cell resulting from egg and sperm conjoining. hence my point about its not a question of pro life or not pro life no one says intentionally killing human beings should be legal. but we disagree on what makes a person

I dont think there is much disagreement in the scientific community about when live begins, they pretty much all agree it begins at conception.

If a fertilized egg has from the moment it was fertilized its very own DNA code, distinct from that of the mother, it can no longer be considered just a cell that is part of the larger being.

The cells in your mouth are small parts of the larger being, there is one being made up of many cells, all those cells share the exact same DNA code because they are only parts of the whole.

A fertilized egg is not just a small part of the larger being, it is a new being all its own. Its the location that throws people off, the fact that this new being is growing inside of another.

 

[sinnerdexter]

i didnt read all the replies but wanted to comment on the original analogy. in the scenario with the recipe and the cake, the recipe for human reproduction is a sperm and an egg which are both present and in place by the time you and your wife come out of the room. however, in the cake analogy you come out of the room with nothing in place, just a list of things that need to be put in place. its not the same at all.

its not a horrible analogy but you failed to identify the fertilized egg as the cake already in the oven!

for the guy who keeps talking about killing living things such as cheek cells and things. you need to understand what being pro-life means. pro-life means that we do not intentionally kill living human beings. the cells in your mouth are not in themselves human beings. obviously we kill all kinds of living things and most pro-lifers probably enjoy a good steak now and then. however the cow is not human beings and either the cells in your mouth.

If you look at the original post you will see that the analogy was to refute an implication that life begins once all the information necessary for a fully formed human is gathered together. And a cake recipe does have all the information necessary to create the cake. I said:

“I have a difficult time with the idea that the starting point for human existence begins at the point that all of the information necessary for a fully formed person is gathered together. It seems if this concept worked for persons, then it should also work for other things.”

While it may not be a perfect analogy to human reproduction, I think it worked quite well for the purpose it was intended.

 

[CharlesDarwin]

I dont think there is much disagreement in the scientific community about when live begins, they pretty much all agree it begins at conception.

If a fertilized egg has from the moment it was fertilized its very own DNA code, distinct from that of the mother, it can no longer be considered just a cell that is part of the larger being.

The cells in your mouth are small parts of the larger being, there is one being made up of many cells, all those cells share the exact same DNA code because they are only parts of the whole.

A fertilized egg is not just a small part of the larger being, it is a new being all its own. Its the location that throws people off, the fact that this new being is growing inside of another.

So are identical twins the same being? after all they share the same DNA in every cell. You see your simplified definitions just dont work in real life

btw you are wrong, there are several variations in the DNA structure of millions of cells in your body, and some people actually have two unique sets of DNA in their body, are they two people then? if I kill a person with two sets of DNA am I guilty of killing two people?

if i kill two identical twins am i guilty of only one murder?

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

The baby’s heart starts to beat at 6 weeks.

This is not just a clump of DNA cells, this is a human life, otherwise… aren’t we all just a clump of cells… aged?

 

[NE_Catholic]

life begins at conception

Then the debate rages on whether that life is “human” or a “person”.
I believe it is, Some believe it isn’t. Who is right? Scientists apply conditions that would also make people in comas worthless. Some secularists apply principles that would make people with mental defects or physical ailments not really “living”.

If you know a woman who has had an abortion a few years ago, ask her. If she will talk about it. Please don’t post any snarky remarks.

 

[CharlesDarwin]

life begins at conception

Then the debate rages on whether that life is “human” or a “person”.
I believe it is, Some believe it isn’t. Who is right? Scientists apply conditions that would also make people in comas worthless. Some secularists apply principles that would make people with mental defects or physical ailments not really “living”.

If you know a woman who has had an abortion a few years ago, ask her. If she will talk about it. Please don’t post any snarky remarks.

what principle says people in comas are worthless? besides soon comas will be a thing of the past because of SCIENTISTS

and what principle would make people with mental defects and or physical ailments not really living? I know of none

living people have beta waves dead bodies and unconscious life do not…pretty simply

 

[CharlesDarwin]

The baby’s heart starts to beat at 6 weeks.

This is not just a clump of DNA cells, this is a human life, otherwise… aren’t we all just a clump of cells… aged?

no…a PERSON has a self aware thinking consciousness

a dead body is a clump of living cells…but we still do not give it rights…because the body is no longer a living being…

similarly we should not give a clump of cells rights simply because it is possible some of te time, that this clump will become a person…only about 50% of conceptions ever result in a functioning person the rest result in a spontaneous abortion

a heart beat does not make you alive…a functioning and conscious brain defines personhood

 

[NE_Catholic]

what principle says people in comas are worthless? besides soon comas will be a thing of the past because of SCIENTISTS

no brain activity? Scientists are people you know. They are just like you & me. I like you enthuiasm for research.

and what principle would make people with mental defects and or physical ailments not really living? I know of none

does this even warrent an answer? I just watched a program on PBS last month where some guy went to Switzerland to kill himself because he had Lou Gering’s disease. Probed this very question.

 

[NE_Catholic]

no…a PERSON has a self aware thinking consciousness

not always

a dead body is a clump of living cells…but we still do not give it rights…because the body is no longer a living being…

we actually do give dead bodies rights in this country. Try to throw one away in the garbage or eat one.

similarly we should not give a clump of cells rights simply because it is possible some of te time, that this clump will become a person…only about 50% of conceptions ever result in a functioning person the rest result in a spontaneous abortion

a heart beat does not make you alive…a functioning and conscious brain defines personhood

this is your opinion

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

no…a PERSON has a self aware thinking consciousness

a dead body is a clump of living cells…but we still do not give it rights…because the body is no longer a living being…

similarly we should not give a clump of cells rights simply because it is possible some of te time, that this clump will become a person…only about 50% of conceptions ever result in a functioning person the rest result in a spontaneous abortion

a heart beat does not make you alive…a functioning and conscious brain defines personhood

A dead body doesn’t have a heartbeat either, Did you think about that too? New claims from scientists show babies can feel pain in the womb as young as 20 weeks. but don’t worry … its just a clump of cells right?

 

[CharlesDarwin]

no brain activity? Scientists are people you know. They are just like you & me. I like you enthuiasm for research.

uhm…what? where did i say scientists weren’t people?

does this even warrent an answer? I just watched a program on PBS last month where some guy went to Switzerland to kill himself because he had Lou Gering’s disease. Probed this very question.

again …WHAT? just because one guy wished to end his life at a time and place of his chosing it means that I don’t feel he is/was living?

wtf are you smoking

 

[CharlesDarwin]

A dead body doesn’t have a heartbeat either, Did you think about that too? New claims from scientists show babies can feel pain in the womb as young as 20 weeks. but don’t worry … its just a clump of cells right?

nematodes feel pain…do you think a nematode is a conscious being? no…pain does not require a conscious brain, the most primitive parts of our brain deal with pain thats why its such a primal urge to avoid it, meaning that just because the fetus can sense pain doesn’t mean its conscious

a dead body can have a heart beat…its called BRAIN DEATH because the BRAIN is dead…no brain to person

 

[NE_Catholic]

uhm…what? where did i say scientists weren’t people?

you emphasize “SCIENTISTS” like they are some kind of super humans.

again …WHAT? just because one guy wished to end his life at a time and place of his chosing it means that I don’t feel he is/was living?

wtf are you smoking

one guy? This could be whole other thread. But I digress. If you fail to see how secular society has devalued human life, so be it.

 

[CharlesDarwin]

not always

one example where a person does not have beta waves…sleeping people have them…non brain dead people in comas have them…theres two times when you dont…the ffirst 2 trimesters and after brain death…

we actually do give dead bodies rights in this country. Try to throw one away in the garbage or eat one.

both of which are aimed at safe guarding the living from the harmful chemicals and diseases that occompany a decaying corpse…they are not aimed at protecting the rights of the dead person

this is your opinion

yes now give me a good science based reason to change it or just stfu

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

nematodes feel pain…do you think a nematode is a conscious being? no…pain does not require a conscious brain, the most primitive parts of our brain deal with pain thats why its such a primal urge to avoid it, meaning that just because the fetus can sense pain doesn’t mean its conscious

a dead body can have a heart beat…its called BRAIN DEATH because the BRAIN is dead…no brain to person

I think you mean Brain Dead. lol. And no trust me, A person without a brain, or who is brain dead with no medical attention i doubt he would survive. Also, A baby is not a nematode, it’s a human, and yes, has a heartbeat , feels pain, and deserves the respect, as life should be respected.

 

[NE_Catholic]

one example where a person does not have beta waves…sleeping people have them…non brain dead people in comas have them…theres two times when you dont…the ffirst 2 trimesters and after brain death…

you are giving eta waves as the only criteria for self awareness? Correct?

both of which are aimed at safe guarding the living from the harmful chemicals and diseases that occompany a decaying corpse…they are not aimed at protecting the rights of the dead person

it goes beyond that such as laws against necrophilia to wills, etc. The dead have rights.

yes now give me a good science based reason to change it or just stfu

what hostillity. You must suffer personally from this issue.

 

[CharlesDarwin]

you emphasize “SCIENTISTS” like they are some kind of super humans.

I emphasized scientists because it is they who are solving real problems in the country not just pushing illogical beliefs onto others with no real basis other than “that’s what i believe”

and since 93% of scientists are atheists and hence secular, you claim these people are the problem

one guy? This could be whole other thread. But I digress. If you fail to see how secular society has devalued human life, so be it.

you said that secularism has made people with mental or physical ailments non living…i said show me how…you went off on a weird tangent about people with painful diseases wishing to go out on their time and at their place rather than allow the disease to put them and their family through a long expensive and painful process.

I fail to see how giving people with painful diseases the option of mercy is a devaluing of human life

 

[CharlesDarwin]

I think you mean Brain Dead. lol. And no trust me, A person without a brain, or who is brain dead with no medical attention i doubt he would survive. Also, A baby is not a nematode, it’s a human, and yes, has a heartbeat , feels pain, and deserves the respect, as life should be respected.

no i meant brain death

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death

a baby is not a nematode…a zygote however is actually more complex than a zygote, and since I am sure you give your dog heartworm medicine, you are killing life that is more advanced than the life you are defending now.

heart beat…yes

feels pain yes

deserves respect yes

deserves rights? no

I am pro life…i am pro all life…but i still swat flies, and give pets heart worm medication because sentient life deserves more rights and more respect than non sentient life

so when you detect beta waves in a zygote let me know