Does man or Angels , demons really have free will?

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dear friends,

In my opinion they do not. I accept they have the capacity to have free will, and indeed they do appear to here in the lost garden of eden, but I think the loss of the garden of eden is the loss of reality or delusion , which is the opposite of reality. In the delusion which is the opposite of reality man and demons do appear to have free will, but in reality they do not. Can you evidence even one example of a man or angel being truly free to do evil? Even one? The instant the fall took place reality was lost for us, it happened earlier for the demons. The reason is God cannot allow evil to exist. That is : evil thoughts and evil desires in the heart. The angels are forbidden evil as well. Adam and Eve were forbidden to acquire the knowledge of good and evil , God did not say you can choose , He forbade them.

Indeed sin is actually just evil thoughts in the mind and evil desires in the heart once consented to and indulged by a person fulfilling the requirements to be capable of guilt of evil / sin. The traditional understanding of sin is incorrect. Eg. A man blasphemes out of habit and no sin, later he blasphemes with the intent to insult God and is guilty of evil / sin. The same principle applies for all sins. This is why there is confusion as to why a sin is sometimes a sin and other times not a sin, in my opinion.

I have a lot more to say on these subjects but will say all in conversation f you want to discuss the subject. I don’t have formal training in philosophy either so plain English will facilitate a progressive discourse, if you will indulge me. What are your thoughts dear friends?

God bless and Love you all

John

 

[Scoobyshme]

My dear friends,

In my opinion they do not. I accept they have the capacity to have free will, and indeed they do appear to here in the lost garden of eden, but I think the loss of the garden of eden is the loss of reality or delusion , which is the opposite of reality. In the delusion which is the opposite of reality man and demons do appear to have free will, but in reality they do not. Can you evidence even one example of a man or angel being truly free to do evil? Even one? The instant the fall took place reality was lost for us, it happened earlier for the demons. The reason is God cannot allow evil to exist. That is : evil thoughts and evil desires in the heart. The angels are forbidden evil as well. Adam and Eve were forbidden to acquire the knowledge of good and evil , God did not say you can choose , He forbade them.

Indeed sin is actually just evil thoughts in the mind and evil desires in the heart once consented to and indulged by a person fulfilling the requirements to be capable of guilt of evil / sin. The traditional understanding of sin is incorrect. Eg. A man blasphemes out of habit and no sin, later he blasphemes with the intent to insult God and is guilty of evil / sin. The same principle applies for all sins. This is why there is confusion as to why a sin is sometimes a sin and other times not a sin, in my opinion.

I have a lot more to say on these subjects but will say all in conversation f you want to discuss the subject. I don’t have formal training in philosophy either so plain English will facilitate a progressive discourse, if you will indulge me. What are your thoughts dear friends?

God bless and Love you all

John

Evil happens all the time. It’s called sin. Sin can be both in thought, word, and deed, as well as sins of omission.

God allows evil to happen. What many people often ask is, “If God is all good, and all powerful, why does He allow evil to happen?”

The Catholic Church has the answer to this, and it’s a theological no-brainer.

God allows evil to happen in order to bring about a greater good. The prime example of this is the passion and death of Jesus, Who is God. He allowed man to commit deicide (killing of God). This is the greatest evil. Yet, it brought about the greatest good, i.e., universal redemption of mankind.

If man didn’t have free will, he could never sin, because outside of the will, there is no sin. Sin is saying, “No!” to God. And one has to choose (free will choice) to say the “No!” to God. There is no such thing as an “accidental” sin.

Without free will, man could also never love, since love exists in the will, and the will exists in the intellect.

 

[HickmanJosh]

well because of angel’s intelligence it would seem they needed only a single chance to chose. For us humans we have been deceived for countless generations by Satan only to be given the truth by God’s Prophets and eventually His son, then the Son’s Church. I guess you could say God has constantly been trying to give us a glimpse of reality while Satan still tries constantly to give us his version. Perhaps this tug-of-war is how we are truly given free will by being able to Chose between the two. Just some thoughts.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Evil happens all the time. It’s called sin. Sin can be both in thought, word, and deed, as well as sins of omission.

God allows evil to happen. What many people often ask is, “If God is all good, and all powerful, why does He allow evil to happen?”

The Catholic Church has the answer to this, and it’s a theological no-brainer.

God allows evil to happen in order to bring about a greater good. The prime example of this is the passion and death of Jesus, Who is God. He allowed man to commit deicide (killing of God). This is the greatest evil. Yet, it brought about the greatest good, i.e., universal redemption of mankind.

If man didn’t have free will, he could never sin, because outside of the will, there is no sin. Sin is saying, “No!” to God. And one has to choose (free will choice) to say the “No!” to God. There is no such thing as an “accidental” sin.

Without free will, man could also never love, since love exists in the will, and the will exists in the intellect.

Dear Scooby ,

I’ll reply later to all on this. I wrote a long reply and the forum time out went off and I lost my work. I’ll redo it later and post. Thx for your ontribution dear friend.

God bless and Love you

John

 

[shoe]

I’m of the opinion that both man and angels have free will. I think that though mankind and angels obviously differ from one another greatly, they can however relate to one another in that they both have intelligence and free will. The Bible says this about angels:

“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment:” (2 Peter 2:4).

“And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6).

 

[Curious_Seed]

My dear friends,

In my opinion they do not. I accept they have the capacity to have free will, and indeed they do appear to here in the lost garden of eden, but I think the loss of the garden of eden is the loss of reality or delusion , which is the opposite of reality. In the delusion which is the opposite of reality man and demons do appear to have free will, but in reality they do not. Can you evidence even one example of a man or angel being truly free to do evil? Even one? The instant the fall took place reality was lost for us, it happened earlier for the demons. The reason is God cannot allow evil to exist. That is : evil thoughts and evil desires in the heart. The angels are forbidden evil as well. Adam and Eve were forbidden to acquire the knowledge of good and evil , God did not say you can choose , He forbade them.

Indeed sin is actually just evil thoughts in the mind and evil desires in the heart once consented to and indulged by a person fulfilling the requirements to be capable of guilt of evil / sin. The traditional understanding of sin is incorrect. Eg. A man blasphemes out of habit and no sin, later he blasphemes with the intent to insult God and is guilty of evil / sin. The same principle applies for all sins. This is why there is confusion as to why a sin is sometimes a sin and other times not a sin, in my opinion.

I have a lot more to say on these subjects but will say all in conversation f you want to discuss the subject. I don’t have formal training in philosophy either so plain English will facilitate a progressive discourse, if you will indulge me. What are your thoughts dear friends?

God bless and Love you all

John

John, you are absolutely all over the map with unrelated premises, undefined terms, and disconnected conclusions.

But, the subject is delightful; I thank you, for bringing it forth.

Well, . . . is any will free?

Does God have a free will?

Does the unexercised capacity constitute the same as if it were exercised?

Is will and choice synonymous or is choice only a subset?

How does sin affect one’s freedom of will?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I can’t quite follow the original post, but in in was the statement “God cannot allow evil to exist.” This is true, though perhaps not in the way it was meant.

God is good, and God is the source of all being, of “all things visible and invisible”. All that God gives being to by necessity is good. That means that evil is an absence, a void, like darkness is an absence of light rather than a thing in itself with a positive existence.

Now, the evils of the world can be divided into several categories. Let me list them in the next post, as I understand them.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

1. Natural Evil- This is evil in the Taoist sense, the “evil” that is not bad. Evil, defined as absence, is essential to the definition of any created thing. Only God Himself, who is pure being, does not have a form which requires natural evil for Him to exist. The classic example is that if you want to make a wagon wheel you need spokes, and to have spokes you need spaces between the spokes- absences which give form to the object with positive being. Even more clearly, you need the wheel to stop at the end of the rim of the wheel, otherwise it would keep on going in all directions and be useless (and universe-destroying, I suppose) The same goes for every object. At the end of each of your fingertips, forgetting the air around you for the sake of argument since that is a different object, your positive being ends and natural evil (absence) begins. If this were not so you would continue on in all directions. Of course this isn’t just a matter of spatial dimensions but of every limitation, but spatial dimensions are the easiest limitation to envision.
2. Unnatural Evil- This is evil which goes against God’s “original plan” for creation (in a special sense God always planned for this “original plan” not to happen, but that would be a long tangent.) In unnatural evil everything with positive existence is still good, but you end up with absences/limitations where something was “meant” to be present.

Unnatural Evil can in turn be divided into two types:

A) Physical Evil- this is anything in the material world which does not go according to God’s original plan, for example anything which physically harms humans. To understand how this could come into being, we have to move on to the next category.

B) Moral Evil- this is when a creature knowingly chooses a lesser good over a greater one. This is impossible for animals without free will since all their decisions spring directly from natural necessity- a natural necessity with God as its direct author. It is thus only possible for creatures whose wills are not determined by any natural necessity either internal or external to themselves- creatures which can contemplate multiple choices, judge the goodness of each option, and choose from any of them, the better or the less good. Since God is good and has endowed such creatures with the capacity to contemplate and love good, He desires that the individual choose the best from among his options, but has given him the faculty to choose any good. If he chooses a lesser good, he introduces an absence in creation that in the perfect Will of God was “meant” to be a presence. Since human beings are creatures with bodies and souls, such choices can in manifold ways effect the physical world as well, either internal or external to our own bodies, and hence unnatural physical evil can enter the world.

The primary question then becomes, how and why is it that such a decision is theoretically possible and actually allowed, if God is all-powerful and gives being to all things that have being in every moment of their existence, including to the human soul in the moment it makes a choice for a lesser good rather than a greater one?

Are these definitions and the reorientation of the question acceptable?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Sorry guys , feeling sick as a dog and will try and come back to this later. Many thx for all your (name removed by moderator)ut. God bless and Love you all , John

 

[Scoobyshme]

Sorry guys , feeling sick as a dog and will try and come back to this later. Many thx for all your (name removed by moderator)ut. God bless and Love you all , John

John, drink a lot of water. That’ll help flush your kidneys and liver out and allow your body to fight whatever’s ailing you better.

God bless! Hope you feel better soon!

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dearest friends,

I intend to repy individually eventually. But in the interest of facilitating discussion I’m posting some other work I’ve done along these lines. It’s my own style of writing and just ignore it if it breaks the law and rules in your head and offends you , that is not my intention. It’s just how I lke to write. It follows dear brothers and sisters.

Exerpts from a conversation I had elsewhere.

… man and angels do / have not free will as understood , they only have the potential to have free will , this makes it possible to love as we must , and this explains the tests we underwent / undergo , and the subsequent delusion to sort out the mess of evil as i’ve been explaining , you must remember that evil is nothing and god cannot allow nothing to exist — onky something can exist ,nothing cannot exist — hence god goes to much trouble to ensure there is something and not nothing , we are not free to do nothing — we must do something , those who choose not to love god get the ultimate hiding in hell to make them wake up to themelves and god knows only too well how to make his angelic and human children obey him — have no doubts about that , and they will eventually ,

… change good and evil , to — love and evil , love = something , and , evil = nothing , love is all that is good as the church more or less understands it , and evil is all that is bad in the same understanding , the angels and us are only free to choose something , we cannot choose nothing , so we do have free will but cannot use it to choose nothing , we must use it to choose something , hence the instant free will by demons and then man is abused by choosing nothing — straight into a delusion of the opposite of reality they go to sort out the problem , we are not free to do nothing , we must do something , it is all part of gods infinitely perfect plan in creating creatures with free will so they can love and at the same time ensuring they use their free will correctly and as intended and do love , we all are only free to love , the purpose of free will is so we can love , not so we can do nothing , think about it , and none can complain if no matter what god just forces them to do something in the end , the angels and man are something and the nature of something is that it must do something , not nothing , does this help you understand better ???

God bless and Love you all

John

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dear friends,

I’ll reply specific later. But if man is created in the image and likeness of God , and God has a sort of free will , but can only do good or love , then why would man be created any different ? It makes no sense. Man is like God having free will to do something , not nothing. But man and demons having done nothing , even God has transformed Himself to be like unto man as He is fallen , and to do this God has had to move us into the delusion or non - reality , as evil cannot exist. Here He takes care of the problem of evil which cannot exist. We are completely outside of reality and hence all things are possible , with God , remember this.

God bless and Love you all

John

 

[tonyrey]

well because of angel’s intelligence it would seem they needed only a single chance to chose. For us humans we have been deceived for countless generations by Satan only to be given the truth by God’s Prophets and eventually His son, then the Son’s Church. I guess you could say God has constantly been trying to give us a glimpse of reality while Satan still tries constantly to give us his version. Perhaps this tug-of-war is how we are truly given free will by being able to Chose between the two. Just some thoughts.

Why God would permit evil powers to influence human beings? I think there are at least two reasons.

1. We are more liable to temptation because original sin has made sin seem more attractive and when we sin we become more open to suggestion from any source.
2. If we often give way to temptation we eventually become caught up in the vortex of evil which ultimately leads to necromancy and invocation of evil spirits.

In Compline - the night prayer of the Church - we are reminded:

“Beloved in Christ, be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist, steadfast in the faith.” [Peter 5: 8, 9a]

Evil is associated with the powers of darkness because under the cover of darkness it is far easier to commit serious crimes. It has been observed that the devil’s cunning is evident in the temptation that neither he nor evil exist - which gives us a carte blanche to do anything whatsoever to get what we want. Dostoevsky was right: if God doesn’t exist everything is permissible…

 

[Aelred_Minor]

John,

I’m still not following you completely, especially on the subject of delusion.

I think you may be right that a man does not have the ability to suspend his will entirely, at least for any prolonged period of time (excepting someone in a coma or a situation of that sort, which is not a matter of choice but circumstance). Even the attempt to do so would itself be an act of the will.

I also agree that we were made to love good, and that this is the only option for our will. We never give our love to evil (nothingness) in an absolute sense, but always to some perceived good.

However, as I mentioned in my earlier post we can and do give our love to a lesser good in preference to a greater one. Some Catholic writers have suggested we always give our love to the greatest good we perceive. This would perhaps be where the idea of delusion could fit in, that we are in error as to the hierarchy of goods we perceive and so give preference to an objectively lesser good over a higher one, because we honestly think the lesser is the greater.

I would reject such a notion though, since: 1) it would mean the human will is entirely the subject of natural necessity, which is the opposite of the idea of a free will. 2) It would mean a person could never be held morally responsible for a choice, since that choice would always be in favor of the greatest good known to the individual.

I recall in Dante, who held this view that our will always chooses the greatest good we perceive, something to the effect that the will is nevertheless free because we make decisions on how to apply our intellect, which in turn leads to a better or worse judgment on the respective strengths of different goods. However, that logic appears to me to be circular, as decisions on how to apply our intellect are made by our will, which in turn always acts upon information about various goods acquired by the intellect. The only way I can think of to break out of the circle is for the will to have the ability to choose any good, even one the intellect has already revealed to be opposed to a greater good.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

John,

I’m still not following you completely, especially on the subject of delusion.

I think you may be right that a man does not have the ability to suspend his will entirely, at least for any prolonged period of time (excepting someone in a coma or a situation of that sort, which is not a matter of choice but circumstance). Even the attempt to do so would itself be an act of the will.

I also agree that we were made to love good, and that this is the only option for our will. We never give our love to evil (nothingness) in an absolute sense, but always to some perceived good.

However, as I mentioned in my earlier post we can and do give our love to a lesser good in preference to a greater one. Some Catholic writers have suggested we always give our love to the greatest good we perceive. This would perhaps be where the idea of delusion could fit in, that we are in error as to the hierarchy of goods we perceive and so give preference to an objectively lesser good over a higher one, because we honestly think the lesser is the greater.

I would reject such a notion though, since: 1) it would mean the human will is entirely the subject of natural necessity, which is the opposite of the idea of a free will. 2) It would mean a person could never be held morally responsible for a choice, since that choice would always be in favor of the greatest good known to the individual.

I recall in Dante, who held this view that our will always chooses the greatest good we perceive, something to the effect that the will is nevertheless free because we make decisions on how to apply our intellect, which in turn leads to a better or worse judgment on the respective strengths of different goods. However, that logic appears to me to be circular, as decisions on how to apply our intellect are made by our will, which in turn always acts upon information about various goods acquired by the intellect. The only way I can think of to break out of the circle is for the will to have the ability to choose any good, even one the intellect has already revealed to be opposed to a greater good.

My dear friend,

I’m getting behind on specific replies on this thread, but will try and catch up. I’ve never heard an accurate account of what is and the effects of the fall of the demons and man, and what should they be, plus how does the fall effect our world and even God. So I’ll try and pen it and maybe that should answer plenty of questions. The delusion will be well and truly answered by that. Any left over q’s can be handled too. It may take a little time topen, I have to sit down and do it.

I will.

God bless and Love you

John

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

… what is the fall and the effects of original sin , and more ??? , let’s look at it ,

… my dear friends , it is just my style of writing , so please if it breaks the laws and rules in your head , ignore them and don’t take offence , none meant dear friends …

… let’s look at angels and demons first , plus god and us etc a bit ,

… they were tested , but did they really have free will as we think ??? , i would say no , as look at the consequences of choosing evil for the demons , immediately they are cast into the opposite of reality – they themseleves are instantly made the opposite of what they are , they go from pure love to pure evil , and are cast into a world of hell which is the opposite of their real home heaven , so how were they free to choose evil , they were not at all , it seems as if they had free will as understood because they could choose good or evil or more apt to say love or evil i think , but having the potential to have free will does not immediately allow for actual free will as we understand in my humble opinion , what is free will anyway ??? , it is the freedom to do what you are made to do and not just anything , in fact as said earlier evil is actually nothing / ness , so how can one be free to choose to do nothing / ness ??? , you cannot do nothing / ness , you must do something , angels are something and the nature of something is that it must do something , not nothing , it is essential in order to love that we and the angels are completely free to choose to love , but it does not follow that we can choose not to love , indeed we can only choose to love , this is the sole purpose of free will , i think this is evidenced by god who has a sort of free will but cannot do evil , but can only love , but this is perhaps complicated by god being able to do evil in this opposite of reality i call the delusion , we are only free to do what we were created to do , what our nature is , and the angels and us were created to love and our nature is love , we are not even meant to have knowledge of good and evil in my opinion , we are not even meant to choose between good and evil , this knowledge has only come through doing evil by demons and man , so how are we free to do that which we are not even supposed to know ??? , we aren’t , god cannot allow evil to exist at all for infinite reasons , it will destroy him if it exists , it can only exist outside reality in the delusion where although it exists it does not really exist at all because it is outside reality , if evil exists in reality then it would cause god to self destruct , he cannot allow it , evil is imperfection and any imperfection in the creation is a reflection on the creator and indicates imperfection in the creator – god would be gone if there were any imperfection in him , the church has been teaching all about the delusion all this time in my humble opinion , i’m talking about the ultimate reality beyond the delusion , that does not contradict or conflict with the holy catholic faith at all , but rather completes and perfects it in my humble opinion , love creates unity and evil creates division , satans kingdom of hell is infinite division , and a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand , so a kingdom infinitely divided against itself definitely cannot stand , hell must be outside of reality ( a delusion ) or it could not exist , and it cannot exist forever as understood due to infinite division ensuring it’s demise eventually , in the delusion hell is forever and all eternity , but when we do get reality back this can and will change in my humble opinion , and all will be ok , the angels in heaven and us back in reality which is of course the garden of eden , jesus’ passion and his death suffies to make this possible , eternal damnation is the just desert for those dying in unrepentant mortal sin , but it is the just punisment for all , those in hell undergo infinite suffering in my opinion to make satisfaction for their sins , if they don’t take advantage of christs salvific work , but with or without this christs redemtive work can redeem even the lost in the end so to speak , it has infinite value as i’m sure you know , and i’m sure we are all going to get reality back and that means evil cannot exist , certainly evil cannot exist in reality , evil can only exist in the delusion , i understand the enorous confusion what i say may cause given evil does exist and all preseume this we’re in is reality and our free will certainly allows us to do evil , but this is all a delusion , not reality at all , i’ll talk about man too , but of god , even god can do evil in the delusion , there are infinite but two very important reasons god and all here is in a delusion , 1 ) if evil exists god doesn’t , 2 ) god cannot become a man and suffer and die for us in reality , but he can in a delusion , so god has had no choice at all and we don’t either , we are here to do gods will alone which is to just love and nothing else , same for angels and demons ,

continued –

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

continued –

i know it’s obvious man and demons don’t love as they ought , but that’s why we’re outside reality or in a sense in the opposite of reality which is the delusion i talk about , non - love or evil cannot exist in reality at all , i’ll just mention again one thing i’ve said before , i talk about the delusion , but there is also an illusion which is change and time , all change has already occured from all eternity in " now " but we experience change gradually unfolding for many various reasons eg . how could we be here , in purgatory and heaven all at once , just for instance , this is another subject and i can’t write an encyclopeduia set on a chat room forum i hope you understand , but there is time to continue discussion if any want to for sure , as said even god can do evil if he needs and wants in this delusion , if he did it in reality he would implode , so he cannot do evil in reality , god must do evil too – the demons and man having abused their free wills , god had to make hell and send demons and man to hell , and even if you say god is not directly responsible for or they chose hell themselves then god is still responsible for making hell and indeed god is in hell and in a way he himself in there has become hell , also , look at the 20th century and fatima and you’ll see god punished the world with two world wars and the russian problem etc etc , if we’re free to do what we like why doesn’t god just leave us alone and let us go ??? , it’s because we are only free to do gods will which is love , not evil , but back on fatima , god punishes the whole world because of mans offences against him , and god does seem to punish man rather indiscriminately you must admit , in these punishments of the 20th century millions of innocents were punished with the wicked by god , this is evil by anyones reckoning , but as said god can do evil in the delusion, only in reality can god not do evil , there are numerous examples from scripture showing god being evil , eg . the first born males of egypt including babies are killed by god simply for being first borns and not having the blood of a lamb over their door , many little babies died , inniocent victims everywhere , i don’t want to destroy your faith in god , i’m only showing what i say is true in my humble opinion , god can do anything he likes in the delusion but that does not mean he always does , there is a very big difference , a prarallel if you like is man can do anything he likes in the delusion but he does not always do it , just because you can murder someone does not mean you do it , you get it i’m sure , the holy angels are effected by this with all being sort of upside down , they must engage in activity unnatural to them such as the gigantic spiritual warfare and according to scripture many foreign activities even killing i’ve seen , but they are where they belong , their home heaven , and they too long to get reality back i’m sure , i think i did not say this – if we could figure out something never known that was completely foreign to our world and unnatural to us do you think we would be allowed to do it ??? , no , we wouldn’t , we are not free to do anything opposed to our nature at all , and evil is opposed to ours and the angels nature , think about this please , evil has no place in ours or the angels world , it is foreign and unnatural to us all , it is nothing which is foreign to us and our world which are somethings ,only something can exist in our worlds or us for that matter , think on it , i could go on forever but it gets a bit long i think ,

… what about man then and other points along the way ??? ,

… let’s look at man before the fall first shall we , and on we’ll go from there ???

, man had no knowledge of good and evil , or i prefer to say love and evil , either way ok , this means that man could not do good or evil because in his heart and mind he did not know them , but man is programmed to do good or love , this is what he is and his purpose , so all man could do was gods will which was love , man had no laws or rules at all , as this would instantly lead to the knowledge of good and evil , indeed the only way man could get this dreaded knowledge was if he was tested as he was with the apple , and the wily mongrel serpent devil tempted him of course , i’ll just quickly say i don’t believe there will be anymore tests or temptations when we get reality which is our garden of eden back , the garden of eden is our entire universe and all in it when it is reality by the way , it is a delusion or non - reality now as i’ll expound here i hope , man did not have conscience as we experience now , it was a friendly guide but not a loud voice tormenting if you did something wrong ,or you would get knowledge of good and evil , gods law was not written on mans heart as you might think as the dreaded knowledge may come , but gods law was silently present in mans very nature , man was naked and perfectly comfortable in all ways even temperature , man lived perfectly naturally and in perfect harmony with nature , man had a very unique different relationship with god as a friend who was his companion who walked and talked with him familiarly and would even do miracles to help him often , the world was a blissful paradise , the ground was soft no thistles or thorns , all was unimaginably beautiful to behold ,

continued –

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

continued –

the sounds out of this world , taste , smell , touch and all mans senses were in total delight , the world was reality , man was vegetarian , no natural distaers or any accidents would ever befall man due to providene , even miraculous providence , man was pretty much the opposite of what he is now , a man would reach his physical peak and be ready for marriage about 13 to 17 y.o. and reach full maturity having increased in size , bone structure and intelligence at about age 30 , and maintained his physical characteristics and natural beauty from when he was at his physical peak – never grow old , wrinkly , grey or die , man was a sheer genius compared to here with the preternatual gifts – he is the opposite to fallen man with the preternatural gifts too , man was naturally inclined to good , i’m going to say something controversial and new about sin now to explain this in eden and here , what i say is ok , but it may sound bad at first until you really think it right over , so beware and think hard first before judging it , there was no sin in eden but man could sin and not know it and hence there would be no sin , let me keep explaing , what the church traditionally teaches is sin is not the whole story in my humble opinion , there is something not quite right and i’ll try and explain it to you if you are patient , our traditional sins are sinful but not for the reason we think , man must make mistakes as he learns from trial and error – this process of mistakes is the only way man can learn , some of the mistakes are bound to be sinful bar for a very few chosen souls , but the sins themselves are not actually sins as we understand it , in eden man would have made mistakes but he had no knowledge of good and evil so his mistakes are just mistakes he must learn from , not sins at all , without knowledge of good and evil you cannot sin , the sins we know in themselves are not really the problem , what we must watch out for is the intent to do evil and the actual doing of evil , this evil i talk about is the big difference that makes a sin actually sinful , we cannot indulge and consent to evil desires in our heart and evil thoughts in our mind , i’ll give you one eg that applies to all sins ,eg. a man blasphemes purely out of habit with no evil intent to insult god and we know there is no sin , but later he decides to do evil and has the evil intention to insult god with his blaspemy and then it is truly sinful , the same rule applies for all sins , it is only if you have this intention to do evil and actually do it whether with a sin or not that you do something evil and sinful , some supposed evils like dieters breaking their diet eating a very fattening cake for instance is ony imaginary evil and not evil at all , but what we traditional;ly understand as sin is mistakes we must try and iron out , it’s intending to and doing evil that makes the mistakes we call sins actually sinful , this is why a sin is sometimes a sin and sometimes not a sin , it is the evil that is the real problem , you must hold to your traditional understanding of sin for now though as they are mistakes you need to try and iron out and due to your training and conditioining when you sin you usually have the evil attached to it that is the problem , that is the way it was in eden , sins were just mistakes that could occur and needed correcting , the biggest problem came with the knowledge of good and evil when eve ate the forbidden apple followed by adam , in eating the apple they knew good and evil and had done evil the moment they decided to eat it , then the first things that happened were god had to throw them into a delusion as he cannot allow evil to exist as said , hence they and us , for now , lost the bgarden of eden , you can then read the genesis account which gives a few brief details of what happened and you’ll see the loss of the garden of eden in practise actually means the loss of reality , opposite of reality which is the delusion , it’s a bit vague but gives you the idea in genesis , i could say much more about eden but that’s enough now i think , but after the fall man is the opposite of reality as is his whole world as i’ve been explaining , our world is not so great anymore , our fellow creatures here are now hostile and dangerous to us , the sun we need gives us sunburn , skin cancer , heat stroke and many problems , water is dangerous to us as is all our food and everything , everything is harmful to us and killing us , from the time we’re conceived it’s down hill as we have rotting decaying bodies and sick deluded minds and we grow old , grey , wrinkly and die , our heart , soul and minds are naturally inclined to evil , we of couse lost our reality , so many things are toxic and bad for us , our minds cannot understand anything hardly at all – hence the big mess we’re in , god as said is the opposite of reality even in the delusion but this does not mean he cannot be reality at times , we have a temporary world we can go to which is the angels world of heaven – for now , but we can go to purgatory first or even hell , we have a better lot than demons if we love god but our whole world and us has been turned upside down , all to take care of the problemof evil , and when you see all god has done because of the problem of evil and understand he cannot allow evil to exist at all , then how can you say man or angels truly have free will as we think ??? , we are only free to do gods will , which is to simply " love "

… god bless and love you …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

… my dearest friends ,

… man and demons , angels too , have the potential to have free will to choose good or evil , but this does not mean that they can actualise that free will to do evil , i’ve given much evidence for this already , but one more point on man , look at our world and all peoples , societies , civilisations , governments , institutions , businesses etc etc and all man is involved in , what comes to mind on this ??? , they all have endless laws and rules prohibiting man from freely using his free will as he likes , mainly from doing what is considered bad or evil , you cannot deny it , man in practise knows he does not have free will to do evil , think about it , we cannot do what we like among ourselves freely at all , the reasons are obvious too — evil cannot be allowed to exist , so what makes you think god allows man or angels to use their free will to do evil ??? , we are only free to love as said , everyone on earth knows it but does not stop and think i think , think about it , potential and actualisation of free will are two completely different things , we have the potential to be evil but are forbidden to use this potential in actuality , true — think about it dear friends ,

… god bless and love you all …

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dearest friends ,

What is original sin? It is simply the loss of reality or casting into the delusion to take care of the problem of evil. What are personal sins? They are simply evil that is not allowed to exist. How are we really perfect if we can’t experience this actuality now? We have been made the opposite of reality because evil cannot exist , but it cannot exist in reality or the garen of eden , in the delusion it can exist but because it exists outside of reality it really does not exist. We do exist very really but our apparent imperfection is a delusion. Example : a man is dying any second at 90 y.o. and his whole life he has never done a single little thing wrong , bad or evil. Is he perfect? Yes. But in the delusion he is seriosly mentally ill , hunchbacked , crippled and horrifically deformed , and even outright obnoxious and difficult to put up with , but never guilty of any wrongdoing at all. Is he still perfect? No , but in reality he is perfect because once he has reality back he will be whole with no problems at all , once back in the garden of eden. Whilst we seem so imperfect here, in reality we are all absolutely perfect. We can lose our souls for now in this big game God has set up to sort out this problem of evil though. We need to be good still . We are all like this very sick 90 y.o. man in varied and many ways – not really as diffeent as we think for now.

What is suffering ? It is part of this delusion too , it really does not exist as it can only exist outside of reality , in reality it cannot exist being an evil. No true evil is allowed to exist.

Does the church often behave as if we have no free will ? Yes. One example is infant baptism. Parents choose what is best for their children always , if their half sane as virtually all are enough to do this. We don’t allow our children the freedom to choose evil at all , and so we shouldn’t. We ensure our children only choose good or love as long as we can control them , even and often against their supposed free will. They eventually usually grow up and are out of our control , but this does not mean they are now free to do evil does it. Everyone , parents and all others try to ensure they continue to choose the good or love always. In practise we all know we’re not free to do evil. As said : having the potential to choose evil is not the same as the actualisation of potenial of which we are only free to choose love in actuality. And let us not forget we were never meant to have the knowledge of good and evil , and hence could never have done evil if we did not have this dreaded knowledge. We are completely free within Gods will , which is simply " love "

God bless and Love you all

John