Does man or Angels , demons really have free will?

[John_Russell_Jr]

Evil happens all the time. It’s called sin. Sin can be both in thought, word, and deed, as well as sins of omission.

God allows evil to happen. What many people often ask is, “If God is all good, and all powerful, why does He allow evil to happen?”

The Catholic Church has the answer to this, and it’s a theological no-brainer.

God allows evil to happen in order to bring about a greater good. The prime example of this is the passion and death of Jesus, Who is God. He allowed man to commit deicide (killing of God). This is the greatest evil. Yet, it brought about the greatest good, i.e., universal redemption of mankind.

If man didn’t have free will, he could never sin, because outside of the will, there is no sin. Sin is saying, “No!” to God. And one has to choose (free will choice) to say the “No!” to God. There is no such thing as an “accidental” sin.

Without free will, man could also never love, since love exists in the will, and the will exists in the intellect.

… my dearest friend ,

… thank you very much for your contribution , i feel i have answered your points n my other posts , but will just focus on free will to love if i may , it is true you must have free will to love , without this freedom you cannot love , but it does not necessarily follow that you have to know good and evil to love , adam and eve had no knowledge of good and evil and yet loved , same with the holy angels in a way – they have never done evil and yet love , it is only necessary to have free will to do good and evil in potentiality to love , you don’t have to abuse your free will by choosing evil in order to love , our first parents were forbidden to eat that apple that gave them the knowledge of good and evil which meant they could not love , only when you have the dreaded knowledge of good and evil can you do evil , we have always from the beginning only been free to do gods will which is simply " love " , i know it’s confusing because there is so much evil , but in reality there is no evil , it is all occuring outside of reality in this delusion , and hence not really happening at all , as god cannot allow true evil to exist , i hope you understand , let me know dear friend ,

… god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

well because of angel’s intelligence it would seem they needed only a single chance to chose. For us humans we have been deceived for countless generations by Satan only to be given the truth by God’s Prophets and eventually His son, then the Son’s Church. I guess you could say God has constantly been trying to give us a glimpse of reality while Satan still tries constantly to give us his version. Perhaps this tug-of-war is how we are truly given free will by being able to Chose between the two. Just some thoughts.

… my dear friend ,

… many thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut , i’ve explained all this furher throughout all my posts , let me know what you think if you want ,

… god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

I’m of the opinion that both man and angels have free will. I think that though mankind and angels obviously differ from one another greatly, they can however relate to one another in that they both have intelligence and free will. The Bible says this about angels:

“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment:” (2 Peter 2:4).

“And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6).

… my dear friend ,

… thank you , i agree too that angels and man have free will , but only in potentiality , in actuality they are only free to do gods will " love " , my other posts explain this , let me know what you think ,

… god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

John, you are absolutely all over the map with unrelated premises, undefined terms, and disconnected conclusions.

But, the subject is delightful; I thank you, for bringing it forth.

Well, . . . is any will free?

… my dear friend , no is the answer but it’s tricky , because yes is the real answer , are we free to do something " love " or nothing " evil " , we are only free to do something , my other pots go into this more dear friend ,

Does God have a free will?

… it’s inadequate to say god has a will or free will , i call it the equilibrium of god because no matter what it always ensures everything is as perfect as possible and all do gods will no matter what in the end , and all will as if nothing went wrong in my opine ,

Does the unexercised capacity constitute the same as if it were exercised?

having free will in potentiality to do good or evil does not mean you have the freedom to do either in actuality , if you know good you automatically know evil , adam and eve were forbidden the knowlege of both good and evil for this reason , and the forbiddance stands to the end of time , as to the unexercised capacity we are not supposed to have this but having it is not doing it , just because you know evil does not mean you can do evil , and the answer to the q is no ,

Is will and choice synonymous or is choice only a subset?

… we exercise our will in our choices , this is our freedom , but can you choose nothing ??? , no , you can’t , you must choose something , it would depend on your definitions and understanding as to what the answer to your q might be , if you want to explain it fully and clearly i’ll try and answer you dear friend ,

How does sin affect one’s freedom of will?

… pretty badly obviously , we are meant to have free will , but are not meant to have knowledge of good and evil , and hene not meant to be able to even do evil at all , the will is the opposite of reality in the delusion knowing good and evil as it should not and being weak and prone to evil so much ,

… god bless and love you dear friend ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

1. Natural Evil- This is evil in the Taoist sense, the “evil” that is not bad. Evil, defined as absence, is essential to the definition of any created thing. Only God Himself, who is pure being, does not have a form which requires natural evil for Him to exist. The classic example is that if you want to make a wagon wheel you need spokes, and to have spokes you need spaces between the spokes- absences which give form to the object with positive being. Even more clearly, you need the wheel to stop at the end of the rim of the wheel, otherwise it would keep on going in all directions and be useless (and universe-destroying, I suppose) The same goes for every object. At the end of each of your fingertips, forgetting the air around you for the sake of argument since that is a different object, your positive being ends and natural evil (absence) begins. If this were not so you would continue on in all directions. Of course this isn’t just a matter of spatial dimensions but of every limitation, but spatial dimensions are the easiest limitation to envision.
2. Unnatural Evil- This is evil which goes against God’s “original plan” for creation (in a special sense God always planned for this “original plan” not to happen, but that would be a long tangent.) In unnatural evil everything with positive existence is still good, but you end up with absences/limitations where something was “meant” to be present.

Unnatural Evil can in turn be divided into two types:

A) Physical Evil- this is anything in the material world which does not go according to God’s original plan, for example anything which physically harms humans. To understand how this could come into being, we have to move on to the next category.

B) Moral Evil- this is when a creature knowingly chooses a lesser good over a greater one. This is impossible for animals without free will since all their decisions spring directly from natural necessity- a natural necessity with God as its direct author. It is thus only possible for creatures whose wills are not determined by any natural necessity either internal or external to themselves- creatures which can contemplate multiple choices, judge the goodness of each option, and choose from any of them, the better or the less good. Since God is good and has endowed such creatures with the capacity to contemplate and love good, He desires that the individual choose the best from among his options, but has given him the faculty to choose any good. If he chooses a lesser good, he introduces an absence in creation that in the perfect Will of God was “meant” to be a presence. Since human beings are creatures with bodies and souls, such choices can in manifold ways effect the physical world as well, either internal or external to our own bodies, and hence unnatural physical evil can enter the world.

The primary question then becomes, how and why is it that such a decision is theoretically possible and actually allowed, if God is all-powerful and gives being to all things that have being in every moment of their existence, including to the human soul in the moment it makes a choice for a lesser good rather than a greater one?

Are these definitions and the reorientation of the question acceptable?

… my dear friend ,

… many thanks for you considerable work here , i would make one very important observation if i may : we are supposed to try and be and live as best we can allowing for the fall and sin as much as we possibly can as if we are in the garden of eden , and therein there is no knowledge of good and evil , so how can you choose lesser or geater good , if there is no knowledge of good ??? , we are simply to do gods will which is " love " , but if we make a mistake that is normal and we just learn from it , let me know if this makes sense to you ,

… god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Why God would permit evil powers to influence human beings? I think there are at least two reasons.

1. We are more liable to temptation because original sin has made sin seem more attractive and when we sin we become more open to suggestion from any source.
2. If we often give way to temptation we eventually become caught up in the vortex of evil which ultimately leads to necromancy and invocation of evil spirits.

In Compline - the night prayer of the Church - we are reminded:

“Beloved in Christ, be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: whom resist, steadfast in the faith.” [Peter 5: 8, 9a]

Evil is associated with the powers of darkness because under the cover of darkness it is far easier to commit serious crimes. It has been observed that the devil’s cunning is evident in the temptation that neither he nor evil exist - which gives us a carte blanche to do anything whatsoever to get what we want. Dostoevsky was right: if God doesn’t exist everything is permissible…

… my dear friend ,

… thank you for that , i have stated many of my positions on this here , god , the devils , evil and us do exist most assuredly , but much is a delusion as i state , feel free to coment on the totality of work please ,

… god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

John,

I’m still not following you completely, especially on the subject of delusion.

I think you may be right that a man does not have the ability to suspend his will entirely, at least for any prolonged period of time (excepting someone in a coma or a situation of that sort, which is not a matter of choice but circumstance). Even the attempt to do so would itself be an act of the will.

I also agree that we were made to love good, and that this is the only option for our will. We never give our love to evil (nothingness) in an absolute sense, but always to some perceived good.

However, as I mentioned in my earlier post we can and do give our love to a lesser good in preference to a greater one. Some Catholic writers have suggested we always give our love to the greatest good we perceive. This would perhaps be where the idea of delusion could fit in, that we are in error as to the hierarchy of goods we perceive and so give preference to an objectively lesser good over a higher one, because we honestly think the lesser is the greater.

I would reject such a notion though, since: 1) it would mean the human will is entirely the subject of natural necessity, which is the opposite of the idea of a free will. 2) It would mean a person could never be held morally responsible for a choice, since that choice would always be in favor of the greatest good known to the individual.

I recall in Dante, who held this view that our will always chooses the greatest good we perceive, something to the effect that the will is nevertheless free because we make decisions on how to apply our intellect, which in turn leads to a better or worse judgment on the respective strengths of different goods. However, that logic appears to me to be circular, as decisions on how to apply our intellect are made by our will, which in turn always acts upon information about various goods acquired by the intellect. The only way I can think of to break out of the circle is for the will to have the ability to choose any good, even one the intellect has already revealed to be opposed to a greater good.

… my dearest friend ,

… good question , we are not meant to choose any good : lesser or greater , how can we if we don’t know what good is ??? , that’s what it’s like in reality – the garden of eden , one of the instantaneous effects of the fall was that man began to develop massive multiple infinite systems of laws and rules , and he applies these to everyone and everything , even god , he checks always do they / it obey my laws and rules or not ??? , and rewards and punishes on the basis of how they / it comply with his laws and rules , all do this without even knowing it i’m quite sure , it is the result of the knowledge of good and evil , it is insanity , and all do it to judge whether someone or something is good or evil , you see how it works and what a mess it has made , this forbidden knowledge ??? , we are supposed to just simply " love "

… god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

… my dear friends ,

… just to confirm a few things re free will : man must have free will in order to love , but we must look at man pre - fall to undertand what free will is meant to be , and there we see that adam and eve had no knowledge of good and evil , so their free will was not to do good or evil as they had no knowledge of it at all , but their free will was to just simply " love " which is gods will , and this was intuitive to them , built in and ingrained in their entire nature , they did good of course but did not know it at all not having the forbidden knowledge , so from this i’m quite sure we can see what man’s free will is really meant to be and it’s true purpose , i know now – our state of original justice having been lost man must focus on being and doing pure good and eliminate all evil in and from himself , but in the beginning it was not so , as said , any thoughts are welcome dear friends ,

… god bless and love you all ,

… john …

 

[razredge]

If we don’t have free will then God (at least a theistic, personal God, does not exist).

Simple as that - angels on the other hand might not have free will, as I was discussing in another thread - we don’t really know for sure.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

If we don’t have free will then God (at least a theistic, personal God, does not exist).

Simple as that - angels on the other hand might not have free will, as I was discussing in another thread - we don’t really know for sure.

… my dear friend ,

… i agree we all have free will , but what is free will really ??? , i go into this if you want to read all my posts and talk dear friend ,

… god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[stevicus]

This is an interesting topic, and I’ve been searching through other threads on the topic of free will. This is something that’s always confounded me to some extent, particularly when considering how much is outside of our own control, strictly by design and the way nature and our biological organisms are constructed. Our lifespans are limited, we feel hunger, thirst, fatigue, fear, pain - along with a whole slew of emotions which can be difficult to control or even understand at times.

Sometimes, it seems to me that the temptation to sin can happen by a desire to avoid some of these unpleasantries of life. If pain didn’t hurt, and we never had to worry about being cold, hungry, or thirsty - and we could live for 1000 years, then it would probably be much easier. But we’ve been designed a certain way - a way which seems to make it all the more difficult.

Then there are other factors outside of one’s control, such as where/when one is born, who his parents are, and so forth. This can also affect one’s perceptions and decisions one might make in life, which may not so much be a reflection of free will as much as tradition and culture. I could see where someone born into the Las Vegas casino lifestyle would probably have a more difficult time avoiding temptation than someone born into a devoutly religious fishing village in the 14th century. It would seem that things like that would also affect free will in a fundamental way.

That aside, I think humans do have a certain amount of free will, but it’s limited. Also, there’s a time limit we have in which to make our choice, as well as consequences for making the wrong choice. But then, if we make a choice under duress, is that really a reflection of our free will?

 

[tonyrey]

This is an interesting topic, and I’ve been searching through other threads on the topic of free will. This is something that’s always confounded me to some extent, particularly when considering how much is outside of our own control, strictly by design and the way nature and our biological organisms are constructed. Our lifespans are limited, we feel hunger, thirst, fatigue, fear, pain - along with a whole slew of emotions which can be difficult to control or even understand at times.

Sometimes, it seems to me that the temptation to sin can happen by a desire to avoid some of these unpleasantries of life. If pain didn’t hurt, and we never had to worry about being cold, hungry, or thirsty - and we could live for 1000 years, then it would probably be much easier. But we’ve been designed a certain way - a way which seems to make it all the more difficult.

Then there are other factors outside of one’s control, such as where/when one is born, who his parents are, and so forth. This can also affect one’s perceptions and decisions one might make in life, which may not so much be a reflection of free will as much as tradition and culture. I could see where someone born into the Las Vegas casino lifestyle would probably have a more difficult time avoiding temptation than someone born into a devoutly religious fishing village in the 14th century. It would seem that things like that would also affect free will in a fundamental way.

That aside, I think humans do have a certain amount of free will, but it’s limited. Also, there’s a time limit we have in which to make our choice, as well as consequences for making the wrong choice. But then, if we make a choice under duress, is that really a reflection of our free will?

No! All the factors beyond our control are not evidence against free will but evidence that our scope is limited!

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

This is an interesting topic, and I’ve been searching through other threads on the topic of free will. This is something that’s always confounded me to some extent, particularly when considering how much is outside of our own control, strictly by design and the way nature and our biological organisms are constructed. Our lifespans are limited, we feel hunger, thirst, fatigue, fear, pain - along with a whole slew of emotions which can be difficult to control or even understand at times.

Sometimes, it seems to me that the temptation to sin can happen by a desire to avoid some of these unpleasantries of life. If pain didn’t hurt, and we never had to worry about being cold, hungry, or thirsty - and we could live for 1000 years, then it would probably be much easier. But we’ve been designed a certain way - a way which seems to make it all the more difficult.

Then there are other factors outside of one’s control, such as where/when one is born, who his parents are, and so forth. This can also affect one’s perceptions and decisions one might make in life, which may not so much be a reflection of free will as much as tradition and culture. I could see where someone born into the Las Vegas casino lifestyle would probably have a more difficult time avoiding temptation than someone born into a devoutly religious fishing village in the 14th century. It would seem that things like that would also affect free will in a fundamental way.

That aside, I think humans do have a certain amount of free will, but it’s limited. Also, there’s a time limit we have in which to make our choice, as well as consequences for making the wrong choice. But then, if we make a choice under duress, is that really a reflection of our free will?

… my dear friend ,

… many thanks for your contribution , i’m writing a brief commentary on the genesis account of the creation and fall of man , and will post it here when done , please feel free to continue contributing dear friend ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

No! All the factors beyond our control are not evidence against free will but evidence that our scope is limited!

… my dear friend ,

… many thanks for your contribution , i’m writing a brief commentary on the genesis account of the creation and fall of man , and will post it here when done , please feel free to continue contributing dear friend ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[Curious_Seed]

John_Russell_Jr:


John, you are absolutely all over the map with unrelated premises, undefined terms, and disconnected conclusions.

But, the subject is delightful; I thank you, for bringing it forth.

Well, . . . is any will free?

… my dear friend , no is the answer but it’s tricky , because yes is the real answer , are we free to do something " love " or nothing " evil " , we are only free to do something , my other pots go into this more dear friend ,

No is the answer, but yes is the real answer: my goodness, John, not an inviting premise. Not good.

Does God have a free will?

… it’s inadequate to say god has a will or free will , i call it the equilibrium of god because no matter what it always ensures everything is as perfect as possible and all do gods will no matter what in the end , and all will as if nothing went wrong in my opine ,

Wow. Yes, something here is more than inadequate, I’m afraid.

Does the unexercised capacity constitute the same as if it were exercised?

having free will in potentiality to do good or evil does not mean you have the freedom to do either in actuality , if you know good you automatically know evil , adam and eve were forbidden the knowlege of both good and evil for this reason , and the forbiddance stands to the end of time , as to the unexercised capacity we are not supposed to have this but having it is not doing it , just because you know evil does not mean you can do evil , and the answer to the q is no ,

Now, that’s interesting, if you know good, you automatically know evil. When we are in Heaven, will we not know it is good? Is to know evil, to know good?

Is will and choice synonymous or is choice only a subset?

… we exercise our will in our choices , this is our freedom , but can you choose nothing ??? , no , you can’t , you must choose something , it would depend on your definitions and understanding as to what the answer to your q might be , if you want to explain it fully and clearly i’ll try and answer you dear friend ,

My, . . . . oh my, John. What is that?

How does sin affect one’s freedom of will?

*… pretty badly obviously , we are meant to have free will , but are not meant to have knowledge of good and evil , and hene not meant to be able to even do evil at all , the will is the opposite of reality in the delusion knowing good and evil as it should not and being weak and prone to evil so much ,

… god bless and love you dear friend ,

… john …
*

Well, thank you, John.

God bless you too.

 

[nfreak141]

I propose a disagreement to your proposement: We do have free will, it’s just that the soul wants to do what’s easiest for it and/or what benefits it the most, often resulting in a lack of our free will.