Does Mass turn away God's wrath?

[ahs]

I am working on addressing some Protestant claims about the Church teachings, and there is one that I"mnot entirely sure how to address. The following statement is one of many in a laundry list of “deception” that the Church teaches:

“…the sacrifice of the Mass can turn away God’s wrath on sinners…”

I’m honestly not sure how to address that at all. Can someone please help point me in the right direction? My goal in addressing all this person’s points is to see the positive intentions this Protestant has, and express why either 1) such is not what the Church teaches, or 2) why such is not contrary to Scripture.

 

[Gorgias]

I have never heard that claim being made by the Church. Instead of disproving it, perhaps you might rather ask him to demonstrate that this is what the Church teaches…

(On the other hand, if he’s trying to say that reception of the Eucharist remits venial sin, then that is something the Church teaches – but it’s a completely different statement than he’s making…)

 

[JackVk]

Yeah, they’re gonna need to cite some sources. I’ve been active in the faith for three years now, and have read up extensively on the faith, and that just sounds ludicrous. And their source will have to be an ex cathedra statement, or something with authority binding on the faithful, not the private opinion of a pope or a saint or just some random self-proclaimed Catholic.

 

[ActingCatholic]

I have never heard that claim being made by the Church. Instead of disproving it, perhaps you might rather ask him to demonstrate that this is what the Church teaches…

(On the other hand, if he’s trying to say that reception of the Eucharist remits venial sin, then that is something the Church teaches – but it’s a completely different statement than he’s making…)

I thought venial sin was forgiven during the Kyrie, meaning prior to receiving Eucharist.

 

[Gorgias]

I thought venial sin was forgiven during the Kyrie, meaning prior to receiving Eucharist.

No. That’s a common misconception.

 

[Sheadad]

I thought venial sin was forgiven during the Kyrie, meaning prior to receiving Eucharist.

You’re right, it’s called the Penitential rite. A part of it with the new translation goes, 'through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault…"

 

[ahs]

Thanks for the responses! Yeah, I was thinking it sounded too far off to be even close to true.

I witheld a bit of information on purpose, so as not to bias any respnoses. The person I am addressing is an anti-Catholic (supposedly former Catholic) who writes many an article to denounce the Church. A Protestant friend linked me to one of his articles and I began to address most of the inconsistencies, and then I thought I may as well address the whole thing and then post it here…like “Church_Militant” does from time to time. I’ve found that doing this is a good way to force me to sharpen my Biblical learning as well as my understanding of what the Church really teaches. It also helps me to be better able to explain the faith to others in “real life” situations.

I’ll be posting it soon in this forum…stay tuned

 

[JackVk]

Thanks for the responses! Yeah, I was thinking it sounded too far off to be even close to true.

I witheld a bit of information on purpose, so as not to bias any respnoses. The person I am addressing is an anti-Catholic (supposedly former Catholic) who writes many an article to denounce the Church. A Protestant friend linked me to one of his articles and I began to address most of the inconsistencies, and then I thought I may as well address the whole thing and then post it here…like “Church_Militant” does from time to time. I’ve found that doing this is a good way to force me to sharpen my Biblical learning as well as my understanding of what the Church really teaches. It also helps me to be better able to explain the faith to others in “real life” situations.

I’ll be posting it soon in this forum…stay tuned

Look up John Martignoni and Jeff Cavins

 

[Anthony_V]

There’s a large difference between the way most Protestants view God’s wrath, and the way Catholics view God’s wrath. God’s “anger”, insofar as we can say he is angry without experiencing passions, is in that there is a separation between man and God. It is divine justice that God is merciful and builds a new bridge through grace from the cross. A Protestant who adheres to the idea of imputed righteousness (virtually all) believes that the act of salvation is juridical and happens outside the person. See here. Literally, that God somehow vented his anger on himself in his passion, death, and resurrection, rather than on mankind, and Christ’s righteousness is accounted to the elect in a superficial way. In another sense, that our sinfulness is credited to God in Jesus Christ, and his righteousness is credited to us externally and superficially; rather than God, through our faith in love, truly and really crediting it to us through interior conversion as our salvation (Romans 4:22). Or to use more common language, justification and sanctification are one in the same. It is divine justice, not that Christ was battered for our sins, but that we are sanctified in his total self-giving love as a result thereof. God would forget himself (so to speak) so that we could be sanctified. That is a God of love.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 4:8[/BIBLEDRB]

This is relevant because the Mass is our participation in God’s love flowing from Christ’s atoning act. If you say “yes”, you will be correct in the Catholic sense–that Christ’s atonement for our sins began the process of our justification and sanctification, and by healing the gap between God and man, this mollified God’s wrath (in a non-passionate sense). But the Protestant may mistake you for meaning that each Mass is a necessary part of the atoning act, which we do not believe. I’m sure you’ve heard the accusation from some Protestants that Catholics sacrifice Christ again and again at Mass (theoretically, of course, because Catholics can’t actually sacrifice Christ again and again). Protestants actually must hold this view because they can’t hold any other one. If they believe that the crediting happens externally (which they must if the believe in imputed righteousness), they believe that our participation in the Mass is like trying to add something to Christ’s sacrifice. However, we hold the view that righteousness is infused, and rather than externally adding something to Christ, we are internally being brought into union with him by his ultimate act of love and self-donation. As St. Paul brilliantly said,

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 2:20[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[ActingCatholic]

No. That’s a common misconception.

You’re right

Seems to be disagreement so I tried to look it up. According to the Summa…We’re all right!

As stated above (Article 2), no infusion of fresh grace is required for the forgiveness of a venial sin, but it is enough to have an act proceeding from grace, in detestation of that venial sin, either explicit or at least implicit, as when one is moved fervently to God. Hence, for three reasons, certain things cause the remission of venial sins: first, because they imply the infusion of grace, since the infusion of grace removes venial sins, as stated above (Article 2); and so, by the Eucharist, Extreme Unction, and by all the sacraments of the New Law without exception, wherein grace is conferred, venial sins are remitted. Secondly, because they imply a movement of detestation for sin, and in this way the general confession * the recital of the Confiteor or of an act of contrition, the beating of one’s breast, and the Lord’s Prayer conduce to the remission of venial sins*, for we ask in the Lord’s Prayer: “Forgive us our trespasses.” Thirdly, because they include a movement of reverence for God and Divine things; and in this way a bishop’s blessing, the sprinkling of holy water, any sacramental anointing, a prayer said in a dedicated church, and anything else of the kind, conduce to the remission of venial sins.

 

[Lancer]

No. That’s a common misconception.

You are incorrect re: forgiveness of venial sins during Mass…venial sins are forgiven…not by Sacramental absolution…but by the efficacy of praying/actively participating in Mass

A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH

**Efficacy of the Penitential Rite
**
ROME, 28 JUNE 2005 (ZENIT)
**Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University. **

Q: What is the efficacy of the penitential rite in the Mass as far as the forgiveness of sins are concerned? One prominent priest in our area advanced the reason for the reduction in Catholics going to confession is because of the penitential rite. — J.W., Buffalo, New York

A: This subject is clearly addressed in **No. 51 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal: **

“Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance.”

Thus it is clear that the absolution formula that concludes the act of penance is not sacramental absolution and in no way dispenses from the obligation of confessing grave sins before receiving Communion.

Only recently have some people purported the theory that this rite absolves sins and could substitute confession. It is certainly possible that such a defective catechesis regarding the sacramental nature of this rite could contribute to a falling away from the sacrament of reconciliation.

However, I do not believe that the fault can be laid at the door of the rite itself. **Some form of general admission of sin and unworthiness has formed part of the Mass since earliest times. It has always been seen as a positive element of confession, petition of forgiveness, and interior purification before entering into the celebration of the sacred mysteries. **

The non-absolutory nature of the penitential rite does not mean that venial sins are not forgiven during this rite; they are also forgiven by receiving Communion and by the other intercessory prayers of Mass.

This forgiveness is due to the general reparatory nature of all positive acts of prayer, sacrifice, devotion and worship which in some way create a positive counterbalance to those common sins, defects and imperfections which plague our daily lives.

Since **participation in Mass is infinitely the greatest form of reparatory and intercessory prayer that a human being can undertake, it is clear that his or her venial sins are likewise forgiven during Mass. **

This is not true of mortal sins because the state of grace is necessary in order to receive Communion and fully benefit from the other blessings of the Mass. These sins ordinarily require sacramental confession and absolution to be forgiven.

Moreover,** even a person in a state of mortal sin is not deprived of all graces while attending Mass. **

Such a person may still, for example, receive the grace of being moved by God’s Word, by the homily, or by one of the prayers and hence gain a deeper knowledge of the state of his soul, of God’s great mercy, and thus find courage to seek forgiveness. ZE05062820

ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur88.htm

 

[Gorgias]

You are incorrect re: forgiveness of venial sins during Mass…venial sins are forgiven…not by Sacramental absolution…but by the efficacy of praying/actively participating in Mass

Note that, in the revised Roman Missal (NB: which has been revised since this opinion on Zenit was written), the ‘penitential rite’ has been changed to the ‘penitential act’. I don’t think it’s stretching the point to note that this highlights the fact that this isn’t an ‘absolution’ in the way that the Latin Rite sees absolutions. At the very least, it’s not an indicative statement (e.g., “I absolve you”), but rather, simply a deprecative prayer (“May Almighty God… forgive us our sins”).