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diggerdomer
Guest
So…yeah…you agree with my or with cajunboy’s point?Christ’s Body is the Church, as you know. Plus that’s how the Fathers expounded it, and it is how it will continue to be expounded. So . . . yeah . . .
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zach_dunn
Guest
I think you’re both saying essentially the same thing, but you’ve tried to make it more attractive to non-Catholics.
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cajunboy1
Guest
Hello,One thing to know is I will never spice anything to sound more attractive to non Catholics. That would be sinful to me. Now, it is what it is and through the Diaconate Training I am currently attending it is what I have learned there is no Salvation outside of the Church. That being said, we consider our protestant brethern who are of Christian Churches part of the Church but without the fullness.Thanks for listening.
God Bless You!!
Cajunboy
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Cristian_B
Guest
Yes it is true. Only they will possess the the Kingdom of Heaven. Yes, you have to belong to the Church, but not necessarily to the Catholic Church.
I will try to explain my statement. They will reign Jesus’ Kingdom not by their own work, but because they listened to the Father’s commandments: which is believe in that He sent His only Son to give His life for us; that means that God’s commandments is to have faith in Jesus and love Him. You know the tree by it’s fruit. If it gives good fruit, then the tree is good; if the fruit is bad, so is the tree. Whoever listens to God’s commandments gives good fruits. If we don’t love Him, listen to Him and neither have faith in Him, our fruit will be bad, which means that we, at a certain point, will fail and give a bad, rotten fruit. God will cut the tree and throw it in fire.
So, if you do good stuff, which you are able to do only if you have faith and love Jesus, you will be a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. If you give “bad fruits” you will be thrown into fire.
As I said, you do not enter Jesus’ Kingdom by your own work, but by faith and love as well. It means that you do not have to do an arbitrary number of good things to enter in the kingdom (e.g: OK-says the angel, you have done more that 10,000 good deeds, so you can enter). Because there are also people that try to fool God and they try to “look” like they are good (but they are hypocrites), but, at a certain point, you will see that their nature is different and they will give bad fruit. That is why you do not get in heaven by your own work, but by faith. A man made in his short life 3 good deeds (because he couldn’t do more) and another one 10,240; both of them with good faith. They will both enter God’s Kingdom.
So, I will try to shorten it: only the ones with good fruits can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The fruits are you actions, what you did. Good deeds come only from good faith. Since you go into His Kingdom by faith we can deduce: the quantity of “fruits” is irrelevant, as long as you produce good “fruits”. So, only the ones that have good fruits enter heaven, and the quantity of fruits is irrelevant as long as they are good. Only the one that loves Jesus (and has faith in Him) can produce good fruits. The good tree tries to give as many good fruits as possible.
It’s easy to understand, in my honest opinion.
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sidbrown
Guest
But can Jews, Muslims, Hindhus and Buddhists do charitable good works?
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YADA
Guest
All mankind can [and do] perform good works, charitable work, corporal works of mercy, etc. All mankind is created by God and all mankind have a law written into their hearts [Read Paul’s letter to the Romans] … and as such can respond to God accordingly …
Just as the Jews could be circumcized in body but not in their hearts, so too could one be baptized in matter and remain un-baptized in their heart [or later cometo deny the Christ they once accepted]. That is why we “work out our salvation with fear and trembing … lest we lose the race” …
Thankfully, it is the providence of God and God alone who decides the damnation of a soul …
Now Jesus founded a Church, a people of God and entrusted the Church tp spread the Good News of Salvation to all the world and to all peoples … what was that Gospel? That Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life … The Church cannot tell you that all ways are equal [as Oprah does] … The Church can only teach the message that has been entrusted to her, Jesus and Him crucifed for the savation of man …
Ergo, Jesus came to save all. Jesus died for all and all have the potential to be saved… we will all be judged according to the knowledge we have hence the Church’s acknowledgement of all who have been baptized into Christ - even if they have a defiecient understanding of the Christian faith - IMHO this can incude Catholics and non-Catholic Christians - and non-Christians, who through no fault of their own have not heard and understood the Good News of Salvation through Christ Jesus …
Salvation could come from doing as Christ instructs in Matthew by feeding the hungry and clothing the naked … but the totality of the Good News includes so much more and only God decides each individual’s capacity, knowledge and response to His call …
That is why I am so glad Christ gave us the Church to instruct and guide us to Him, to Christ … and that is why I humbly submit to that guidance …so that I might discern the Way, the Truth and the Life … The Church leads me to a life in Christ, she points always to Christ.
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CatholicGuy22
Guest
Thats not a good argument for disproving the Catholic Church.
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Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
There is more to Matthew 25 than just 31-46. The chapter contains the parable of the ten virgins and the unfaithful servant, correlative to the fullness of the Spirit of God in Grace and Charity(oil) and cooperation with it (talents). In the next verse, Matthew 26:11 “For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always”. This in addition to the beginning of the betrayal by Judas after a discussion of the cost of the alabaster ointment.
In Matthew 25:40 “And the king answering, shall say to them: ‘Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me’”. It is interesting that in Acts 9:4 “And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: ‘Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me’”?, Jesus relates those who, not poor, but Christians as related to Him.
This is in direct relation to what the Church teaches in that we become adopted members of Christ’s Trinitarian family through free acceptance of Him and the Holy Spirit. This seems to put feeding the Spirit of God first, and seemingly negates the current attitude of temporal welfare being subordinate to spiritual welfare.
The Church teaches we need more than a mere “intellectual” faith but one that transforms one into a “little Christ”. This is done with works in cooperation with the Spirit of God that has no room in our heart as long as attachment to sin resides there. The Grace God gives us in cooperation with Him allows us to defeat this attachment to sin. Bible “only” misses this fact by personal interpretation devoid of the Sacred Tradition handed down by those Jesus taught to bring this Tradition to us.
I see, even in the some members of the Catholic Church, the attempt to return to Eden without God via only half the Gospel, the part that elevates man but not with the Spirit of God but with technology. It is this technology devoid of His Spirit that contradicts Catholicism.
In Matthew 25:40 “And the king answering, shall say to them: ‘Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me’”. It is interesting that in Acts 9:4 “And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: ‘Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me’”?, Jesus relates those who, not poor, but Christians as related to Him.
This is in direct relation to what the Church teaches in that we become adopted members of Christ’s Trinitarian family through free acceptance of Him and the Holy Spirit. This seems to put feeding the Spirit of God first, and seemingly negates the current attitude of temporal welfare being subordinate to spiritual welfare.
The Church teaches we need more than a mere “intellectual” faith but one that transforms one into a “little Christ”. This is done with works in cooperation with the Spirit of God that has no room in our heart as long as attachment to sin resides there. The Grace God gives us in cooperation with Him allows us to defeat this attachment to sin. Bible “only” misses this fact by personal interpretation devoid of the Sacred Tradition handed down by those Jesus taught to bring this Tradition to us.
I see, even in the some members of the Catholic Church, the attempt to return to Eden without God via only half the Gospel, the part that elevates man but not with the Spirit of God but with technology. It is this technology devoid of His Spirit that contradicts Catholicism.
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cajunboy1
Guest
As I stated in my post, outside of the Church which includes all Christian Churches there is no salvation. The Church is our guide and teacher. May our Lord Jesus Christ bless each of you. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of your discussion.
God Bless,
Cajunboy1
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Cristian_B
Guest
It is true. But everyone who belongs to Christ’s Church is no longer “Anglican”, “Catholic”, “Baptist”, “Protestant”, etc. but (s)he is “brother” or “sister”. Everyone who follows God’s commandment, which is to believe in His Only Son and have faith and love Him, becomes part of the Church of God… His bride. Everyone who follows His commandment is a good tree thus giving good fruits. So every tree that gives good fruits is part of His Bride, the Church.
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diggerdomer
Guest
See CCC 846-848
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sidbrown
Guest
According to you, where or what is the Church of Christ?
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Cristian_B
Guest
You mean the reign of Christ? The reign of Christ is a reign of righteousness. His Church is righteous so it is His reign here on Earth. You can’t say: look, it’s here! Or: look, it’s there! Because God’s Kingdom is within us. Follow His Word and it will lead you to Him and His Kingdom, or Church.
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inkaneer
Guest
What a crock. . . . That is wiudhful thinking at its epitome. Any reading of the scriptures will tell an intelligent being that Jesus established a church. NOTICE I said ‘A’ church. The mismatch of protestant sects today can not be that one church. They don’t agree on doctrine. They don’t have the necessary history [2,000 years not just 500] . This idea that God’s church is ‘within us’ is totally unscriptural. Jesus founded His church with a heirarchy [the Apostles] it was a church with authority and it was a church that Jesus would remain with until the end of the age. The age has not ended and Jesus is still with His church. There is only one church that can trace its history back to Jesus and those Apostles. It is the church spoken of in the 31st verse in the 9th chapter of the Book of Acts, the “Ecclesia Kata holis.”
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Cristian_B
Guest
Jesus is not in search of intelligent beings. If it were so, He would choose Satan; the devil is the second most intelligent being, right after God. He is in search of potentially righteous men. Nobody is righteous by himself, but if he has potential, with His help, he might become a saint.
I don’t remember myself saying that He has many churches. I said His Church. In Revelation John speaks of 2 women. One is a beautiful woman clothed with the sun which means that She always gives light to this world; not Her light, but the light She received from the Groom. That woman is the Bride. She had Her clothes stained with sin, but She received new, shiny and brilliant clothes. She has a moon under Her feet and a crown with 12 stars, which could represent the apostles. That woman is the Church of God. But it also speaks of a whore, drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of God, riding a beast. She is a whore, and has many daughters. I don’t want to talk anymore about this whore (or church). I want to stay on-topic.
By the way, if God would judge you by your history you’d be in Hell. But because of His Grace, any previous sin is forgiven. If I were you, I’d be ashamed to bring history into this knowing what your church has done. But, by God’s Grace, all that can be forgiven. If your church members can be forgiven, can’t the Protestant’s church members previous sins be forgiven as well?
His Church is His reign on Earth. Yes, the idea that His reign is within us is found in the Scripture. Of course, it also depends on what you understand by “within us”.
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)
I wanted to see if you would believe me by what I say, not by what I quote. But looks like you didn’t accept the Truth I stated. The Truth is the Truth no matter where it comes from.
Did I say that it was not hierarchical? Nope. Did I say Jesus would abandon His beautiful Bride, prepared for His wedding? Nope. You’re right, Jesus is still with His loyal Church.
I’ve got a feeling that if Jesus would come again in flesh some people would not believe Him. I’m sure many atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, and other non-believers would listen to Him, but many so called “Christians” would deny Him. Of course that He won’t come again in human flesh, but if He would, what I stated would happen.
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inkaneer
Guest
I don’t remember myself saying that He was in search of intelligent beings. I said that reading the scriptures will tell an intelligent being that God established a church with authority and a heirarchy to administer that church. But this idea that the church is invisible or that the church “is within you” [implying that you can’t see it] and denying, as protestants do, that Christ left a visible church with a structure, is totally false. By the way the term “church” and the term “kingdom of God” are not completely interchangeable. But the term “church” and the term “Body of Christ” are completely interchangeable.
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Cristian_B
Guest
I was just saying. Did I say that it was invisible? Nope. You belong to a Church by your heart, whom you listen to: man/angel or God. You first belong to a Church from within.
And what is God’s reign here on Earth?
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inkaneer
Guest
I belong to a church because of my head not just my heart. It is not an impulse that motivates me to belong to a particular church. God created us as rational human beings with the ability to think and to reason. Furthermore, I don’t think it is a matter of firsts or seconds or lasts. The Church is the Body of Christ. You are either in it or not. That being said there are different degrees of being in the church that reflect our humanity and its weakness. Not all of the precepts of the Church are accepted by all mankind for while we are gifted with the ability to think and to reason, we are not gifted with the ability to always agree.
As for God’s reign here on earth, He reigns over all the earth not just the church.
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
One cannot take a single passage from the Bible out of context. It is necessary to evaluate the meaning of each passage in the context of the whole of Scripture.
In other words, think about the passage from Matthew that you referenced and how it pertains to the rest of the Bible – namely, passages like Matthew 16 (“on this rock I will build my Church”) or Matthew 18 “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven”). These are some of the passages in which we see the establishment of the Church and her authority; one must think about giving food and drink to the hungry and thirsty in the context of the Church that Christ Himself founded.
Peace,
Dante
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