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CesarAugustus
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Of course things like gore are bad, but the averge person isn’t tempted as much by violence or action compared to sexual content.
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CesarAugustus
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Something to add, the other stuff nate mention isn’t good either, nor murdering almost everyone in a city of the game.
God bless you!
God bless you!
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Nate8080
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Because I take it someone who is having sex in a video game would likely be getting off to it in real life and therefore committing the sin of masturbation. I find it hard to believe that someone having sex in a video game wouldn’t be deriving pleasure from it in real life, thus making it a form of pornography.
Killing characters in a video game, on the other hand, would not be immoral in my opinion. Why? Because you aren’t actually killing anyone, you are merely slashing pixels or destroying programs which look like people. In the same way, it wouldn’t be immoral to butcher robots who looks like people in real life. Why? BECAUSE THEY AREN’T PEOPLE, THEY DON’T HAVE SOULS, THEY ARE FAKE. While it is true that slaughtering in a game to satisfy some sick, violent urge would be wrong, most of the time this isn’t the case. When I kill in a video game it’s not because I am trying to gratify some depraved inclination, it is because I enjoy being destructive towards non-living entities and I am amused by their reactions to my havoc. It would be like saying there is something wrong by the fact that I take pleasure in destroying rocks or burning wood…the human mind is naturally attracted towards conflict and there is nothing wrong with it indulging this desire to destroy in a harmless activity such as gaming. It would be equivalent to squashing bugs for enjoyment, less so, since game characters aren’t real and bugs are.
I guess the main difference I see between the two is that having sex in a game translates to real life actions (masturbation while doing it), while killing in a game does not. Studies show that people who play somewhat violent video games (like COD, not freaky horror games), have no increased inclination towards violence in real life. Just my 2 cents.
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CesarAugustus
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Another thing regarding sex in games, or erotic content in various productions, is that it can provoke lustful thoughts, and these are a mortal sin too.
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Nate8080
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Isn’t that the only thing wrong with sex in games; namely, the fact that the person is obviously doing it for sexual stimulation in real life. If the person was having sex in a game yet taking no pleasure in it whatsoever I don’t see how this could be sinful. Of course, this would be equivalent to saying that a person would watch porn and take no pleasure in it, which is of course preposterous, so the point is made. Sex in video games is wrong for the express reason that it translates into real life actions. The only reason someone would actually WANT to have sex in a video game is to get off to it in real life. Thus it is a REAL action (masturbation) and is REALLY wrong.
Violence on the other hand doesn’t translate into real life actions for most people, unless you are a psychopathic sadist who enjoys watching people suffer and kills in video games merely for the express pleasure that it brings. Such a person would be gratifying a desire which quite possibly WOULD translate into real life actions such as murder or theft.But most of us aren’t like that, we can distinguish reality from fantasy. When I kill something it’s for the lulz, for the express reason that being able to do whatever I wanted in a fictional world, so long as it doesn’t translate into real life actions, is entertaining. I feel no inclination to do so in real life. Not to mention, a lot of people, such as myself, kill in video games for the competition alone, because it feels good to beat another person online in the competitive spirit. There is nothing wrong with this. I think at the end of the day, every human has an insatiable desire for conflict. While I don’t think it is necessarily virtuous to indulge such a desire, I do not think it is sinful if engaged in a harmless fantasy setting. Especially if it is a good versus evil game, like fighting the Germans in COD. GTA on the other hand…I can’t come to terms with a game like that…I find that a game promoting crime and murder is only intended to cater to sadists and thus immoral.
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CesarAugustus
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Well, even if they aren’t taking pleasure from it, both, the game example, and porn, would be a sin.
Yes, I understand your point, about some people having these things as a “start” to do other sins.
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Kamaduck
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Not necessarily.
Reading this thread, I’ve been thinking a lot about two aspects of video games- one, the fact that the player chooses which actions to take, which is what separates the medium from movies/tv/books/etc. And two, being presented with something on-screen, which is roughly the same as in a movie or on TV.
One of my favorite games is Crusader Kings, which I bought this summer. In it, players can do all kinds of evil things, such as plan assassinations, torture or unnecessarily execute criminals, convert to paganism (in which case one can take concubines), refuse to contain dangerous criminals, start unjust wars, etc. You can also do plenty of good things, but since the goal of the game is to expand one’s territory and improve one’s dynasty, most people are going to do a mix of good and evil in pursuit of that goal.
There’s a certain event that pops up every now and again, which allows the main character (you) to have extramarital sex. While this is, in general, a terrible idea, you can choose to do so. And if you do, there’s not going to be any accompanying sex scene. Matter of fact, there aren’t any scenes at all in the game- just portrait art, some paintings, and the world map. The only thing it’s going to affect is whether there’s a chance of an out of wedlock child character appearing the next year.
In this case, having you character have extramarital sex isn’t at all comparable to watching porn. I’m wondering whether people would still find it problematic, even if the game is about as graphic as a chess board.
That’s just silly. I mean, it’s not silly to assume that some people do that, but everyone? Nah. If it’s in the game, I’m sure there are lots of people sitting through the scene without masturbating. The most obvious situation would be wanting to play through a romance subplot to the end.
(I could be wrong about this, but it was my impression that pornography wasn’t dependent on one’s intent while watching. Something doesn’t stop being porn just because the viewer happens to not be aroused, nor is something automatically pornography just because it provokes lust in certain people.)
This is a faulty assumption.
Anyway, I think I mostly don’t have a problem with making bad choices in video games. I do have a problem with graphic depictions of sex or violence which encourage viewers to see the people involved as objects, rather than as characters. And yeah, I know they are objects, in the sense that they’re not real, just images on a screen. But when we continually watch people be treated like less than people, I think that affects how we see people in real life, too. We shouldn’t train ourselves to view others as less than human. Actions in video games might be wrong because of the effects they have on the player, not because of the effects they have on the world inside the game. In that sense, I think depictions of sex and gratuitous violence in video games should be treated exactly the same as similar depictions in movies and tv. How it’s presented to the viewer is more important than what actually happens in the narrative.
Just my :twocents:.
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Nate8080
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Makes sense, but you must understand that this game that you play seems to be an exception. Ordinarily when a game has “sex” in it they are graphic scenes, not just pop ups. The Witcher would be one example. And no, I don’t think it’s silly to assume that someone would be watching one of these scenes just to take pleasure in it. Any graphic sex scene, whether in a movie, in a game, or on the internet, is a form of porn…I don’t see how anyone could watch such a thing without getting turned on. It’s not possible, unless you were gay or asexual. Ergo, I think God has a problem with it. Why on God’s green earth would you deliberately watch a sex scene in a game that has no relevance to anything whatsoever instead of skipping over it? The only logical answer is that you find it pleasurable to watch, you don’t necessarily have to be fapping to it, you are still enjoying it. So my case stands, watching sex scenes in games would be a form of porn and a sin.
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Tenofovir
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I would think that only sexual stuff - i.e. sexual gratification would be sinful. If you’re playing as a criminal shooting people, I don’t think you’re really imagining killing real people. If you’re stealing in a game because you want to be a bad-ss you’re not stealing, the computer is drawing pixels in such and such a way it looks as if you took a car from someone.
Now sex and nudity are things which may give you sexual gratification and pleasure. That would be a sinful thing.
That’s my take. I could be wrong, but playing a game (outside of the porn aspects) is not causing any sin. You’re not stealing anything, you’re not robbing someone, you’re not shooting them, because there is no THEM. But the depiction of a naked woman and so on, is real for your mind because you may get aroused while you watch that sort of content. It’s sin therefore. You don’t get the same sort of engagement as you’d do when you really shot someone or took a real car.
Of course if a violent game makes you into a more violent person, it’s a sin for that reason.
If you imagine it’s your father you’re shooting every time you shoot the guy with the moustache, that could be sin.
In summary I’d think nudity, sex and kinky stuff would be sinful, because it’s not a real simulation. You should only have these sort of feelings for your wife/husband. A role playing game where you hurt pixels, I don’t think it’s the same as stealing, assault etc in the real world.
It also helps if the game has realistic negative consequences.
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Kamaduck
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I do understand that. I think that, one, even in games that do have actual sex scenes, there are some gamers that aren’t lusting during those scenes. Perhaps not many, but some. And two, I’m interested in discussing whether this is the same situation as tv/movies (where one can also choose whether or not to watch programs with sex scenes in them), or whether choosing to have sex in a game is uniquely bad because of the element of choice.
Crusader Kings is useful for discussing that distinction, because it includes only the element of choice, without any form of pornographic “payoff”.
Even if we assume that it is impossible to watch any graphic sex scene without experiencing pleasure (and I’m not sure what we’re calling graphic here, as there’s a lot between CK’s clean popup art and games with explicit sex scenes), that still doesn’t prove that all people who watch the scene are watching it for that reason. With media that has no other draw, yes, we can make that assumption. But in the case of a much larger work that has many things going for it, I don’t think we can. There are going to be many people who end up watching the scene becuse they’re watching the work for other reasons, and the scene is a part of the work.
Maybe someone never skips cinematic scenes because they like the plot, subplots, and character interaction, and they’re paranoid about missing any of it. You can’t know that a given scene is completely irrelevant until you’ve either seen it or someone tells you.
I’m not saying people have really pressing, important reasons so watch such scenes, since obviously they don’t even have pressing reasons to play games in the first place. I’m saying less than 100% of the people who watch the scenes are doing so for the express purpose of experiencing sexual pleasure.
For the record, I do think it’s a good idea to avoid such things! I think that avoiding sex scenes of any kind would make it easier for people to avoid the near occasion of sin, and of course there are some people who simply don’t want to be exposed to that kind of material. But I don’t think we can assume that everyone who doesn’t do the same is therefore deliberately seeking out sex scenes. I don’t think we know that.
I don’t understand this idea that whether something is porn is dependent on whether the viewer is aroused. If something is actually porn, it doesn’t stop being porn when viewed by an asexual viewer. If something isn’t porn, it doesn’t become porn just because a certain viewer becomes aroused while watching it.
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Nate8080
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It just doesn’t make sense to me. Why, in all honesty, would someone want to watch a sex scene for any other reason than to jerk off to it? How does watching two people make out in any way add to the plot to storyline? I mean I can understand if there is content afterwards that you don’t want to miss, but at least turn off your monitor during the scene. Seriously, granted the person knows that two characters make out so he doesn’t miss that aspect of the storyline, give me one good reason why he would actually want to watch that? The fact that he is paranoid about missing a cinematic clip sounds like ******** to me. I just don’t buy it. I personally wouldn’t want to watch a sex scene even if I wouldn’t get turned on, like a gay sex scene, I would skip it no matter what, or at least turn off my monitor.I do understand that. I think that, one, even in games that do have actual sex scenes, there are some gamers that aren’t lusting during those scenes. Perhaps not many, but some. And two, I’m interested in discussing whether this is the same situation as tv/movies (where one can also choose whether or not to watch programs with sex scenes in them), or whether choosing to have sex in a game is uniquely bad because of the element of choice.
Crusader Kings is useful for discussing that distinction, because it includes only the element of choice, without any form of pornographic “payoff”.
Even if we assume that it is impossible to watch any graphic sex scene without experiencing pleasure (and I’m not sure what we’re calling graphic here, as there’s a lot between CK’s clean popup art and games with explicit sex scenes), that still doesn’t prove that all people who watch the scene are watching it for that reason. With media that has no other draw, yes, we can make that assumption. But in the case of a much larger work that has many things going for it, I don’t think we can. There are going to be many people who end up watching the scene becuse they’re watching the work for other reasons, and the scene is a part of the work.
Maybe someone never skips cinematic scenes because they like the plot, subplots, and character interaction, and they’re paranoid about missing any of it. You can’t know that a given scene is completely irrelevant until you’ve either seen it or someone tells you.
I’m not saying people have really pressing, important reasons so watch such scenes, since obviously they don’t even have pressing reasons to play games in the first place. I’m saying less than 100% of the people who watch the scenes are doing so for the express purpose of experiencing sexual pleasure.
For the record, I do think it’s a good idea to avoid such things! I think that avoiding sex scenes of any kind would make it easier for people to avoid the near occasion of sin, and of course there are some people who simply don’t want to be exposed to that kind of material. But I don’t think we can assume that everyone who doesn’t do the same is therefore deliberately seeking out sex scenes. I don’t think we know that.
I don’t understand this idea that whether something is porn is dependent on whether the viewer is aroused. If something is actually porn, it doesn’t stop being porn when viewed by an asexual viewer. If something isn’t porn, it doesn’t become porn just because a certain viewer becomes aroused while watching it.
There only seems one reasonable explanation as to why someone would REALLY want to see that bit of a cinematic clip, that is, to gain sexual satisfaction from it.Take Metro Last Light for example, there is supposedly a part of the storyline where you can either make out with a prostitute or just walk away. Making out with the prostitute in no way ads to the storyline…at all…tell me why any God-fearing Catholic would choose to do it? Again, the only reasonable explanation is to fap to it, or at least gain sexual satisfaction. Ergo, deliberately choosing to watch a sexual scene would be a sin, for most people at least. I imagine there are some who feel no lust whatsoever, like gay people or asexual people, but we are talking about the majority of people.
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CesarAugustus
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I think that watching porn is a sin, independently of if the viewer is aroused or not.
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Kamaduck
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OK, making out is a whole different ballgame than sex, regardless of presentation. It’s a fundamentally different action that we routinely debate on these boards, so it’s generally a gray area even in real life.
Scenes that include characters kissing can move the plot along, because they can reveal how characters relate to each other and interact. Character interaction, as a rule, is more important to me than plot, regardless of what I’m watching.
And I disagree. I don’t generally play games with sex scenes in them (my tastes skew towards grand strategy and zelda/pokémon/etc), but I do sometimes watch television with non-explicit sex scenes (or scenes of people making out, since you brought that up), and I find that such scenes often move the plot along or give the viewer insight into the characters. If a story makes a habit of wasting my time with random nonsense that contributes nothing to the narrative, that in itself is reason enough for me to drop it.Seriously, granted the person knows that two characters make out so he doesn’t miss that aspect of the storyline, give me one good reason why he would actually want to watch that? The fact that he is paranoid about missing a cinematic clip sounds like ******** to me. I just don’t buy it. I personally wouldn’t want to watch a sex scene even if I wouldn’t get turned on, like a gay sex scene, I would skip it no matter what, or at least turn off my monitor.
I guess I might as well say that I ID as asexual-spectrum. I could be incredibly wrong and thoroughly deluded about myself, but on the off chance that I’m not, that would suggest that there are, in fact, other reasons to watch scenes that may include non-explicit sex or making out. I therefore believe that at least some percentage of allosexual people are watching for those reasons.
Y’know, as someone who doesn’t generally play games with the option to make out with prostitutes, I really couldn’t tell you. It sounds like a bad decision. But that doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for a game to include a scene that has both characters making out and some addition to the story or character development.
I’m really not sure what to say to this. I don’t think asexual people are immune to lust, and I don’t think allosexual people are compelled to lust whenever they see people making out, but neither of those are really related to the topic at hand.
And you would be entirely right, Cesar. But I don’t know that “sex scene” always equals “porn”, and that’s definitely not the case if we’re broadening this discussion to include kissing.
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Tenofovir
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I would think it’s the arousal aspect (and by that maybe I should mean more than actual full arousal but deriving of sexual pleasure) which is the reason behind the issue with porn. If I were to watch gay porn just for curiosity’s sake, I am not gay and have never been aroused by a naked dude, I don’t think it would be sinful. Likewise if you get aroused by looking at a fashion magazine - which is obviously not porn - for you it become sinful - i.e. it is a porn equivalent. If your fetish is women’s stockinged ankles and there’s lots of that, then that’s porn and immoral.
Also I’m sure you’ll agree that censors who watch porn are not committing a sin, or do you think they are sinning? And police officers who watch porn to look for anything illegal such as the presence of children?
I would also think the arousal aspect is what makes porn different from depictions of violence. Depictions of violence in video are always staged and unreal to the mind, but porn actually arouses the person as if he or she were there engaging with the act which is immoral because it is not an act with one’s spouse.
Now depictions of violence can be real sometimes too, such as watching a video of a real killing, e.g. in war such as the ISIS videos on Youtube. I don’t know about others but if I see something like that I do feel ill because then I know the killing is real.
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Tenofovir
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What’s the natural law argument for this? Catholic morality is based on that. Perhaps because it is showing an intimate act? Ok what about just soft core porn? Or art?
Is art porn? Is any nudity porn? Surely people who visit museums and see all that nudity are sinning? Right?
I’m willing to learn, but wish to have a coherent natural law ethics argument for this, and not mere “it’s forbidden”. Because there are rational reasons behind prohibitions.
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Kamaduck
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Gotta disagree with you here, Tenofovir. I think porn has more to do with the intended use of the product and what’s actually contained in it than the reaction of the person watching. Gay porn doesn’t stop being gay porn when it’s being viewed by a heterosexual man. Likewise, non-pornographic media doesn’t become porn just because the viewer is aroused.
I’d say that in the former case, you’d be committing the sin of watching porn (and therefore being complicit in its creation and supporting those who make it, etc), and in the latter case, you’d be sinning by lusting (or at least putting yourself in the near occasion of sin).
But I still think it’s possible for media to communicate that two characters are having sex without that media actually being porn.
Yeah, that’s different. I don’t have a handy-dandy argument as to why, but I’m certain that’s different.
I dunno about this. I would definitely say that there’s a more immediate danger for most people with depictions of sexual activity, but I think there are dangers with regard to simulated violence, too. Anything that causes us to delight in the idea of sin strikes me as a fairly bad idea, since the stories we consume definitely change us.
In all cases, though, I’d say the sin with choices we make in games is in how we allow them to affect us. It’s not objectively wrong to make a choice in a game that would be sinful in real life, but it could be wrong if we allow repeatedly making those choices to change us for the worse.
Well, I’m no expert, but I’m going based on this:
“2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.”
I won’t pretend that it answers all my questions on the matter (many of which you’ve listed), but I do think it means that consuming or creating porn is wrong independent of any lust that it may lead to.
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CesarAugustus
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Not only the arousing part, from what I gather from the Catechism, the problem with porn has intrinsic elements on it.
I agree with the part about the fashion magazine, fetishes, etc. That’s the issue with some fanservice, that while isn’t arousing for someone, could be arousing for other persons, being an ocassion of sin for them. Because of that, is important to warn people about these contents.
Good question. I’m not sure, but I think these would be (necessary) proximate ocassions of sin. Still, more information about that question is needed. Maybe that is adressed some Moral theology manuals.
Also, the average person isn’t tempted easily by violent contents.
But something like gore isn’t good to watch.
I think these could be problematic, and in a different level than simulated violence.
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Tenofovir
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It should be spelt out exactly what the reasoning is.
Is it because it depicts an immoral act? But then watching reality TV shows which show people steal from shops, and so on, are also immoral. Reading the newspaper which describes crime in detail.
And what about Crime TV or other crime shows? Are these moral then? Is one sinning if one watches Crime and Investigation TV where scenes of crimes are reconstructed?
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CesarAugustus
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Softcore porn, is still sinful.
Regarding nudity in art, is a much debated topic. From what I’ve read, basically it depends of the portrayal, the levels of dettachment from certain sensuousness in the depictions, etc. And is more recommended, from what I’ve read, etc. Is to simply avoid nudity in art, unless necessary, and there, prudence is needed too (so, it would be recommended for the artist to pray before studying it, etc).
Basically, sins against the 6th and 9th Commandment are different.
Kamaduck posted something from the Catechism, that adresses some points.
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Ositokc
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This is the actual hilarious double standard, especially in American TV/Movies -
Gratuitous acts of violence/murder/crime are absolutely ok, but
don’t you dare say a cuss word or show a nipple, anything Sexual is abhorrent but
extreme violence/torture/death can be shown anytime day or night on regular cable tv.
So I would suggest Morality does NOT matter in video games, same as in music or movies. It’s up to the user/viewer to decide what they want to do, listen to, or watch.
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