Does more than physics determine gender?

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Is the soul that God gives us upon conception a male soul or female soul? Does the soul determine the gender or is the soul given based on God’s knowledge of what the DNA has determined? Or is the soul simply genderless? I ask this to clear up some ignorance on my part when dealing with those that argue a man is really born a women, but has the physical consistency of a man. I seem to think that gender is more than just natural. I think it would have to be supernatural and either determined by the soul or shared by the soul. But I am not sure what the Church teaches on this or if there were any Catholic philosophers that pondered this.

Pax Christi
 
shocktrooper said:
Is the soul that God gives us upon conception a male soul or female soul? Does the soul determine the gender or is the soul given based on God’s knowledge of what the DNA has determined? Or is the soul simply genderless? I ask this to clear up some ignorance on my part when dealing with those that argue a man is really born a women, but has the physical consistency of a man. I seem to think that gender is more than just natural. I think it would have to be supernatural and either determined by the soul or shared by the soul. But I am not sure what the Church teaches on this or if there were any Catholic philosophers that pondered this.

Pax Christi
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Souls do not have a gender. The reason human beings have genders is for the purpose of reproduction, as Man was told to be “fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28).
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Souls do not have a gender. The reason human beings have genders is for the purpose of reproduction, as Man was told to be “fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28).
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I remember discussing with you in the “Where do we draw the line?” thread but I wasn’t aware you were a Christian. Just wanted to give a note that I’m happy to see that you are.

-Prophesy
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Souls do not have a gender. The reason human beings have genders is for the purpose of reproduction, as Man was told to be “fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28).
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If a soul, per the CCC, is the form of the body and its animating principal, then how can a body do anything without the soul? No soul, no life in the body, which means no becoming anything, neither male or female.

Can you give me Catholic sources that support your position?

Thanks.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Souls do not have a gender. The reason human beings have genders is for the purpose of reproduction, as Man was told to be “fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28).
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I disagree. Souls have gender, they are male or female. At the resurrection of the body, we will again have a male and female body to associate with our soul. My maleness is part of who I am, to ignore that fact is to ignore an important part of how God made me.

CCC:
2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.
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2333 Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.
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2335 Each of the two sexes is an image of the power and tenderness of God, with equal dignity though in a different way. The union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh the Creator’s generosity and fecundity: “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” All human generations proceed from this union.
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According to a CAF apologist, they do not have gender (sex)…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=341074

Jesus also implies such with the following…

“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”
- Matthew 22:30

This definitively indicates there is no marriage in Heaven, presumably because reproduction is unnecessary. Without reproduction, what use would sexual organs be? However, if gender is more than the form of your reproductive organs, then the nature of your gender would likely be existent within your glorified body but not necessarilty the physical organs themselves.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
According to a CAF apologist, they do not have gender (sex)…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=341074
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The father does not explain why he feels this way.
Soldier_Of_God said:
Jesus also implies such with the following…

“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”
- Matthew 22:30

This definitively indicates there is no marriage in Heaven, presumably because reproduction is unnecessary. Without reproduction, what use would sexual organs be? However, if gender is more than the form of your reproductive organs, then the nature of your gender would likely be existent within your glorified body but not necessarilty the physical organs themselves.
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Like angels, but not angels. This was just to show that angels are not married because they can not reproduce on their own. The primary reason for marriage is to have children.

Thanks.
 
Evan said:
I disagree. Souls have gender, they are male or female. At the resurrection of the body, we will again have a male and female body to associate with our soul. My maleness is part of who I am, to ignore that fact is to ignore an important part of how God made me.

CCC:
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Thank you for the CCC references.
 
shocktrooper said:
Like angels, but not angels. This was just to show that angels are not married because they can not reproduce on their own. The primary reason for marriage is to have children.

Thanks.
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That’s not quite what the comparison is intended to convey. It’s just not about marital states but the fact all in the Kingdom of Heaven are spirits. The word angel is actually a title or role, type of being. Angels are spirit beings. When Jesus is referring to angels, he is not referrinng to their marital state, he is referring to their form in Heaven, that being a spiritual being.

Here is a quote from Luke 20:34-36 that again references angels…

"And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”

Here Jesus says that those resurrected are the equal to angels. Clearly it’s not about marital state because he also talks about the fact that the resurrected son of this age cannot die as well. It’s about the fact they all are spirits, without a mundane fleshly body .
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
That’s not quite what the comparison is intended to convey. It’s just not about marital states but the fact all in the Kingdom of Heaven are spirits. The word angel is actually a title or role, type of being. Angels are spirit beings. When Jesus is referring to angels, he is not referrinng to their marital state, he is referring to their form in Heaven, that being a spiritual being.

Here is a quote from Luke 20:34-36 that again references angels…

"And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”

Here Jesus says that those resurrected are the equal to angels. Clearly it’s not about marital state because he also talks about the fact that the resurrected son of this age cannot die as well. It’s about the fact they all are spirits, without a mundane fleshly body .
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Are you saying that mankind has not been elevated above the angels? I understand that we may be similar to angels when we die in certain areas, but that does not make us equal in totality. Can you answer the question I posted above? Here it is again.

If a soul, per the CCC, is the form of the body and its animating principal, then how can a body do anything without the soul? No soul, no life in the body, which means no becoming anything, neither male or female.

If a body has no life without the soul, then how can the body generate a gender prior to the soul? It seems to me that the body and soul would be both of the same nature, whether supernatural or not.

How do you explain the below CCC paragraph?

2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.

Thanks.
 
I think some people (including the CAF apologist) are confusing our human soul and our human nature.

The Catechism clearly teaches (as we have seen) that souls have gender.

Our human nature, however, is independent of gender. We all share the same human nature. When Jesus assumed human nature, he assumed the nature of both men and women.
 
shocktrooper said:
Are you saying that mankind has not been elevated above the angels? I understand that we may be similar to angels when we die in certain areas, but that does not make us equal in totality.
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What is being referred to is the state, not station, of men and angels.
If a soul, per the CCC, is the form of the body and its animating principal, then how can a body do anything without the soul? No soul, no life in the body, which means no becoming anything, neither male or female.
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The soul is the substance or essence of a person, not the physical attributes or accidents of a person. It is the animus of a body but does not the determine of form of corporeality. Here is the definition taken from the glossary at the back of the U.S. version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The spiritual principle of human beings. The soul is the subject of human consciousness and freedom; soul and body together form one unique human nature. Each human soul is individual and immortal, immediately created by God. The soul does not die with the body, from which it is separated by death, and with which it will be reunited in the final resurrection.

To reiterate, the soul is the subject consciousness but the body and soul together form human nature. If a person is born without legs or is mentally challenged, are we to infer that their soul is “incomplete” or “deficient” in some way? Did God imbue someone with a inferior soul? Doubtful. The body is an artifact of the material world but we become a human with human nature when it is united and animated by the soul. Upon the resurrection, we will be united with our body but a glorified one. Remember, gender are the properties that distinguish creatures on the basis of their reproductive roles.
How do you explain the below CCC paragraph?

2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.
Click to expand...
Sexuality is inextricably entwined with procreation and unitive love with a spouse. However, upon death and entrance into Heaven, there will be no need for procreation or unitive sexual activity. We will retain the nature of our humanity (the union of body and soul) in a glorified form but not the corporeal accidents of material existence.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
The soul is the substance or essence of a person, not the physical attributes or accidents of a person. It is the animus of a body but does not the determine of form of corporeality.
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How do you know that it does not determine the physical nature? You have not given me Church teachings supporting your position. I am trying to figure out what the Church teaches on this, either way.

Let me ask a few questions to determine where you stand on this.
  • If a person is born with both sexual organs, what is their sexual nature?
  • If a person is born a man, then has a sex change operation, is he now a woman or is he still a man, according to God?
  • Is a person born gay, or did God create them in a way that goes against his natural law?
  • If a man looks like a man in all ways but is infertile, is he still a man?
  • Are we correct to say that God is a Father, or Mary is still a mother since neither have the same earthly body they did when on earth? Or because they can no longer reproduce because of the lack of genitals?
Thanks.
 
DavidFilmer said:
I think some people (including the CAF apologist) are confusing our human soul and our human nature.

The Catechism clearly teaches (as we have seen) that souls have gender.

Our human nature, however, is independent of gender. We all share the same human nature. When Jesus assumed human nature, he assumed the nature of both men and women.
Click to expand...
David,

Can you please provide the teachings on this that you know of so that I can reference them?

Thanks.
 
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