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Does musical inculturation apply to the use of pop and rock styles in American liturgies?
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opus101
Guest
Lest I scandalize anyone, let me say that the drink was coffee.
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Brendan_64
Guest
If that’s the case then why not install comfy padded seats, free wireless, and a hot-dog stand which opens after Mass? Why not have big screens up so that people can keep up with football scores while they’re in Mass (that might get more people who miss mass to watch the football, through the doors).
If we have to employ gimmicks to get people through our doors then we’re in a pretty sorry state.
We are not in the ‘entertainment business’ competing with other ‘leisure’ activities. Mass is about the Liturgy (pure and simple). Everything that is done at Mass should be done solely to enhance the Liturgy, not to appeal to the ‘consumer’ tastes of potential new customers that we want to give us ‘repeat business’.
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pnewton
Guest
You have to learn to let disagreement roll off your back. The bishops do not always agree the best course, but they still respect their disagreements. I never use profane music. I have never heard profane music in Church.
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pnewton
Guest
If we are going to compare making music desirable to comfy seats and hot-dog stands, the we should compare, undesirable music to tear gas and fire ants, just to be even-handed.
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opus101
Guest
… and some of us need to cultivate a sense of humor.
And I’m not sure it really has to do with disagreement as much as it does with having eyes to see with and ears to hear with.
Profane music is secular music. Same thing. The word is being used in its actual sense, not in the popular sense of foul language and sinful things.
The altar is sacred. My coffee table is profane.
The chalice is sacred. My go-cup is profane.
The compositional styles of liturgical music are sacred. The compositional styles of Matt Maher (that I have heard) are profane (even though the lyrics are religious).
It is being used in the same sense as the word “secular” .
It is referring to anything that is not sacred and set aside for the divine liturgy alone.
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pnewton
Guest
I am well aware of that, and my statement applies. Yet you chose to use “profane” instead of “secular.” Interesting choice.
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opus101
Guest
The Magisterium has chosen many times to use the term “profane” instead of “secular”. Should we be suspicious of them as well?
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opus101
Guest
Kudos to you for not using it. As far as having never heard it in Church, would that the rest of us had been so sheltered.
Not only do many of us get a steady stream of religious pop music written in secular styles, but sometimes just regular pop music (Celine Dion, Bette Midler, Josh Groban) for “inspiration”.
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pnewton
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Then why did you feel the need to explain the term when I used it? I did not attempt to explain it to you. I just used it to reflect your usage.
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pnewton
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For the record, I do not consider contemporary hymns and most contemporary Christian music to be secular. Praise and worship type stuff, though I never use it, is never heard in a secular setting.
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opus101
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Because when you said that you had never heard profane music in Church I thought it was because you had a different idea of the word. I thought this because surely just about everyone, at some time or another, has heard it in Church.
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TCCOV
Guest
Wow, PN and Opus101, you two can really kung fu hustle!
In answer to the OP’s question, “Does musical inculturation apply to the use of pop and rock music at Mass?”
Yes.
In answer to the OP’s question, “Does musical inculturation apply to the use of pop and rock music at Mass?”
Yes.
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opus101
Guest
As has been explained exhaustively by bishops and Popes and touched upon numerous times in this thread and others, it isn’t the “secular setting” that makes certain pieces secular! It’s whether or not the approved text is actually set to one of the many styles that the Church considers sacred, and whether or not it resembles secular music to such a degree that it is only the text that makes it different. If what you say were so, then Gregorian chant would all of a sudden become “secular” if someone decided to perform it at a rock concert at the local Mall. The fact is, it would still be sacred music, but unfortunately, sacred music that has been profaned.
As far as you not considering contemporary hymns to be secular, that is not the topic here. The topic is sacred music styles versus popular religious songs.
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opus101
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TCCOV, in what way do you think it applies? And how do you relate your answer to the document in the original post:Wow, PN and Opus101, you two can really kung fu hustle!
In answer to the OP’s question, “Does musical inculturation apply to the use of pop and rock music at Mass?”
Yes.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=10177
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pnewton
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I was aware of that distinction when I made my statement.
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opus101
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What was the purpose of your statement “Praise and worship music are never heard in a secular type setting” in post #111? I must have misunderstood. You said it in the context of what you do not consider to be secular, so naturally I thought you meant that you didn’t consider it secular because according to you, it is “never heard in a secular setting”.
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TCCOV
Guest
OD101,
Bp. Sample’s document isn’t universally binding. Only curial documents, presumably advanced via ex cathedra or consillium and signed off by the Holy See, are “in force.”
Now, so you don’t have a cardiac, I’m on Abp. Sample’s side of the fence.(Save for his endorsement of the respected Randy deBruyn’s Mass over the ICEL for Marquette, which is a curiosity unto itself.)
That said, Holy Mother Church from inception has allowed for the absorption of culture into its fold and rites. If in doubt, consult today’s Epistle. Beyond that, whatever historians and musicologists want to construe “wha’ happened at Trent?”, inculturation has always had a hand in the game, even in the first world. (Ambrosian rite, Gallic rite, Sarum rite, Corsican rite well that was extreme, yes.)
If one was at Mass and heard as a choral option (licit under GIRM) a Spanish villancico composed by a native Mexican in that tongue, you’d be hard pressed to differentiate that offered sung prayer from a relatively contemporaneous motet from Monteverdi in Latin. So, there is precedence. Hence, there is deliberation of the open-ended options that the GIRM/IGRM has not only for the processionals, but for the whole shootin’ match.
Ergo, a local DM/choirmaster/cantor/liturgist/musical shot caller has to, if called into question, determine with whatever faculties and instruction they/she/he has availed themselves of, whether the Matt Maher tune (he is a Catholic in good standing) meets the criteria not of Music in Sacred Worship, nor of Sing to the Lord, but of Musicam Sacram, CSL and IGRM (as Maher’s work was promulgated in that time window, which does incorporate attributes of Piux X MT TLS).
What torques me off about these pedantic arguments is that everyone forgets that “all politics is local.” If you cannot discuss these issues in extremis with your pastor, why are you wasting bandwidth here? Yes, not every joint is staffed by a pedigreed expert. But if the locals are questioning the music to the pastor, then they’ve made the first, right step. And the pastor needs to respond with an equally earnest reply.
Bp. Sample’s document isn’t universally binding. Only curial documents, presumably advanced via ex cathedra or consillium and signed off by the Holy See, are “in force.”
Now, so you don’t have a cardiac, I’m on Abp. Sample’s side of the fence.(Save for his endorsement of the respected Randy deBruyn’s Mass over the ICEL for Marquette, which is a curiosity unto itself.)
That said, Holy Mother Church from inception has allowed for the absorption of culture into its fold and rites. If in doubt, consult today’s Epistle. Beyond that, whatever historians and musicologists want to construe “wha’ happened at Trent?”, inculturation has always had a hand in the game, even in the first world. (Ambrosian rite, Gallic rite, Sarum rite, Corsican rite well that was extreme, yes.)
If one was at Mass and heard as a choral option (licit under GIRM) a Spanish villancico composed by a native Mexican in that tongue, you’d be hard pressed to differentiate that offered sung prayer from a relatively contemporaneous motet from Monteverdi in Latin. So, there is precedence. Hence, there is deliberation of the open-ended options that the GIRM/IGRM has not only for the processionals, but for the whole shootin’ match.
Ergo, a local DM/choirmaster/cantor/liturgist/musical shot caller has to, if called into question, determine with whatever faculties and instruction they/she/he has availed themselves of, whether the Matt Maher tune (he is a Catholic in good standing) meets the criteria not of Music in Sacred Worship, nor of Sing to the Lord, but of Musicam Sacram, CSL and IGRM (as Maher’s work was promulgated in that time window, which does incorporate attributes of Piux X MT TLS).
What torques me off about these pedantic arguments is that everyone forgets that “all politics is local.” If you cannot discuss these issues in extremis with your pastor, why are you wasting bandwidth here? Yes, not every joint is staffed by a pedigreed expert. But if the locals are questioning the music to the pastor, then they’ve made the first, right step. And the pastor needs to respond with an equally earnest reply.
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opus101
Guest
First of all, yes, I’m aware that Bishop Sample’s document is not binding except for his own flock, etc. I’m not really interested in the binding nature of this topic, but in the truth found in it, and find it interesting to discuss.
Yes, I am also aware of the above info. If you read through the thread you will see that it is not denied that inculturation has always had “a hand in the game”. The aspect of it that Bishop Sample clarified is in regard to whether or not inculturation, properly understood, refers to adapting a people’s sacred music or adapting their secular music. His thoughts on the matter are in support of the former. In reference to adapting music from the cultures of mission lands he writes:
“It is important to note here that when we speak of the sacred music of a particular culture, we are indeed speaking of music that is considered truly ‘sacred’ within a culture. This principle is not applicable to subcultures within a given society that have no connection with a religious or spiritual culture.”
I find this interesting. I’m sure you can search through music history (in reference to your mention of the villancico and the motet) and find many exceptions to the rule, but just because something happened here and there throughout history does not make it a norm, nor does it make it something admirable and worthy of emulation.
For instance, our current situation will go down in the annals of music history, but it won’t necessarily be something to emulate, and the fact that it happened won’t be an excuse to perpetuate the same errors in the future.
Exceptions to the rules do not make norms, and just because there is a precedence for something, doesn’t make it a good thing.
Elsewhere, he writes:
“…any composition of sacred music, even one which reflects the unique culture of a particular region, would still be easily recognized as having a sacred character. The quality of holiness, in other words, is a universal principle that transcends culture.” (p. 5)
No need to get so “torqued off”. Actually there is no need for you to read this thread in the first place, if it gets you that torqey.
You are assuming a lot here in regard to whether or not the “local politic” has been approached. I assure you it has been. And the situation only worsened.
You asked why, if I cannot “discuss these issues in extremis with (my) pastor”, am I “wasting bandwidth here”. Precisely for the reason that you mentioned. If I could reason with the pastor, I wouldn’t even bother to “waste bandwidth”.Well, maybe I would, as the real eason I am here is because I’m interested in the subject, as are some other people. Otherwise no one would have responded.
BTW, I disagree that these have been “pedantic” arguments. They have been discussions in search of the truth and in defense of what each individual finds holy and right.
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Bill_Martin
Guest
What makes the compositional styles of liturgical music sacred and not others?
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