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YoungTradCath
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opus, I just tried setting some really nasty lyrics to the tune of Dominus dixit ad me! It worked quite well and not so well at the same time… =o
This is the argument that I have seen a couple of times now that I am not understanding. Certainly no one is talking about playing secular music of any kind including Rock and Roll or anything else during the liturgy. Are we not just talking about music with a Christian/Catholic message that happens to be set to the beats and or style of contemporary music? That is my understanding anyhow. I do not see a problem with it. Personally, I do not like contemporary music during mass. I find the more traditional styles make it easier for me to maintain a prayerful attitude. However, that does not mean that it is not appropriate for those people that find it helpful. I personally do like this type of music outside of mass.When one considers the origins of American Rag Time and Jazz, in the brothels and juke joints (low dives) of New Orleans, and the cities on the shores of the Mississippi River, and as it spread throughout American culture its venue was saloons, bars and low class night clubs, I hardly think that it is suitable as music for worship. The same thing goes for Rock and Roll, especially considering the blasphemous and utterly sinful nature of much of its lyrics.
However, Southern Gospel Music, which has many of its roots in the American Negro
Spiritual is entirely a different thing.
The unfortunate thing about the rest of popular music - including much of so-called folk or “hillbilly” music is its utter banality. There is little about it that is spiritually up lifting.
I happen to agree with the Bishop on this.
The ugly fact of the matter is that much of what we come across in modern Catholic Hymnals since V II falls into this latter category. Banal tunes with infantile lyrics that are an insult to intelligent people! It is as if the people compiling these Hymnals thought Catholics lived in trailor parks!
Can you give me an example please? I mean, an actual title? Because I think we frequently mix genres here.
As an aside, let me just point out that just because Jazz developed they way in which you describe does not mean it is objectively bad. About 800 years ago many people told some goofy priest he ought not read Aristotle because be was pagan. When this goofy priest was done with Aristotle, St. Thomas Aquinas had given the church the Summa Theogiae.
This is a perfect quote for these arguments. Thank you!Yeah, that music originated with sinners!
Fortunately, we have music that–oh, wait…![]()
What I’m interested in though is the reason behind this question? I don’t mean to single you out opus101. You just happen to be the individual to whom I am responding right now. But, why is there so much vitriol on this site? I’ve never experienced so much anger towards priests and bishops as I do on this web site. It’s almost as though among faithful Catholics there is a game being played about who can critique Fr. So and so’s Mass the most, who can quote the most magisterial documents to prove his position, and who can prove himself to be the most traditional/orthodox. Rather than fostering dialogue, this hinders it.
Frankly, and again, I don’t mean to single you out, but your post plays right into what I’m talking about. In your initial post, you asked for our opinions. I gave mine. It didn’t match with yours, so your response was that I must not understand the point. So, in other words, it seems to me that you think I only understand the point if I happen to agree with you. Otherwise, I don’t understand the point.
Elsewhere, I have had people implicitly assert that someone with a couple of undergraduate classes in ethics or morals from a secular university knows more about moral theology than the professor of morals at my seminary, a man who earned his doctorate in the field.
I suspect that after reading this, many might suspect me for being a “liberal” priest. It might surprise some to learn that a JPII generation priest who wears a cassock, enjoys using Latin in the liturgy, isn’t afraid to preach on contraception and abortion, and hears confessions everyday actually enjoys contemporary music and thinks it has a place for use in the liturgy. But, that is the situation.
I realize this is straying from the topic at hand, but I feel like this needs to be said on this board. As it stands now, I would not recommend these fora to someone interested in exploring the faith. Understand, it’s not that I have any huge disagreement with what is written here. I disagree with the tone in which it is often presented. The end result fosters an inherent spirit of suspicion among the faithful. The faithful then stop praying, and start questioning. We start worrying more about how Father holds his hands during the orans position than the state of our hearts. We start worrying more about whether or not the introductory rite used was approved than whether or not we are examining our consciences preparing to receive the King of Kings into our very bodies.
I have been waiting a long time for someone to say this as well as you just did. Thank you!OK…off rant…off soap box. That’s all I have to say, but I felt like I needed to say it. I’d be happy to have a civil conversation with you, opus101, or anyone else, on the issue at hand, which is Bishop Sample’s pastoral letter.
Is it possible, at these conferences, to use this music in a variety of settings/venues other than the Mass? It would certainly highlight the difference between the two types of prayer. It would be a great teaching tool about the true nature of the Mass. It could even prepare them spiritually to enter into the Mass with greater devotion, and appreciate more its beauty and simplicity.*]In talking with young people whom I have taught, worked with in youth groups, met on conferences, etc, they explicitly tell me by their words, and implicitly by their participation, that they prefer the music at these conferences and wish we could have it at home.
Would it be possible to offer them “more” outside of the context of the Mass? Maybe at conferences, talks, prayer meetings, catechism classes, "praise and ‘worship’ " gatherings, retreats, picnics,etc.?Still though, my experience tells me that our young people are looking for more.
I appreciate your desire, but I respectfully disagree with your tactics. First of all, is it really necessary that we “enjoy” the music? Isn’t the music more of a sacred conduit for us to pray the Mass? Secondly, it is not easy to grow in appreciation of something that one is not exposed to regularly. Just my opinion.Eventually, I’d like to get them to the point where they enjoy this type of music.
Again, there are many venues for young people to be evangelized outside of Mass, but most young Catholics under 18 attend with their families anyway (if they come from a church-going Catholic family), so I don’t see how they could be absent just because they don’t like the music… As far as college students go, there are bible studies, Catechism classes, social work groups, etc., that are perfect for evangelization. There are also RCIA classes and retreats.I can’t evangelize someone who isn’t there. I can’t share my love of Christ with someone who isn’t there.
Some would say that admitting this type of music into the liturgy is very close to being sacreligious.( This is no criticism of individuals who provide the music, who are undoubtably good, generous with their gifts and sincere.) Is there no other venue in the 16 waking hours of our day to bring people to Christ?Short of doing something immoral or illegal (and by immoral, I would include changing things in the liturgy that cannot be changed) I will leave no stone unturned to bring people to Christ.
Well, actually we are talking about playing secular and rock “styles” of music (the compositional structures and sometimes instrumentation) in the Mass, sans the secular text.Certainly no one is talking about playing secular music of any kind including Rock and Roll or anything else during the liturgy.
Yes, and it is this that some (including myself) are wrestling with. Last year, Bishop Olmsted described the difference between “religious music” and “sacred music”. There is quite a difference. Religious music can be in a secular style, and is not composed for the liturgy. Sacred music is written in a style that conforms to the vast heritage of (and Church directives for) music for liturgical purposes, and is set aside for those purposes alone.Are we not just talking about music with a Christian/Catholic message that happens to be set to the beats and or style of contemporary music?
This is a good idea. I know that the organizers are certainly open to suggestions, and I suspect the topic at hand is one that is often brought up. I can say this though. The music IS toned down for Mass. My experience has been that three “levels,” for lack of a better word, are used at the conferences.Is it possible, at these conferences, to use this music in a variety of settings/venues other than the Mass? It would certainly highlight the difference between the two types of prayer. It would be a great teaching tool about the true nature of the Mass. It could even prepare them spiritually to enter into the Mass with greater devotion, and appreciate more its beauty and simplicity.
Yes. Absolutely. And at least in our parish, we do. We don’t actually have a “teen” Mass, or a “contemporary” Mass, as a matter of fact.Would it be possible to offer them “more” outside of the context of the Mass? Maybe at conferences, talks, prayer meetings, catechism classes, "praise and ‘worship’ " gatherings, retreats, picnics,etc.?
I don’t think that it’s necessary that we enjoy it, no. But, I also don’t think our objective should be to bore either. My first experience with Franciscan University of Steubenville was not one of their conferences. This was about a year before I entered the seminary and I was invited by a friend to join her for the University’s celebration of the Triduum. I got their for the liturgy on Good Friday, and then I was there for the Easter Vigil. I was completely blown away! The Mass started at 8:00 and didn’t finish until 12:30 Easter Sunday morning. But, wow! It seemed like only ten minutes went by. This was the one time in my life when I can truly say I felt as though I were participating in the heavenly liturgy. Just remembering that experience gives me chills about what the actual heavenly liturgy must be like. Now, I realize that EVERY SINGLE TIME I celebrate Mass, I’m objectively in the heavenly liturgy. But, knowing something is true objectively and subjectively experiencing it are two different things. In the spiritual tradition of the Church, there has always been an understanding of spiritual consolation. With the exceptions of my own ordination and first Mass, never have I experienced as much spiritual consolation at Mass as I did that Easter Vigil. It wasn’t just the music…but I think the music played a major role in that for me.I appreciate your desire, but I respectfully disagree with your tactics. First of all, is it really necessary that we “enjoy” the music? Isn’t the music more of a sacred conduit for us to pray the Mass? Secondly, it is not easy to grow in appreciation of something that one is not exposed to regularly. Just my opinion.
True, but most young people don’t come to those things. Most young people don’t want to go to youth group or Bible study. It’s not “cool” enough for them. For whatever reason though, I can get them to sign up in droves for these conferences.Again, there are many venues for young people to be evangelized outside of Mass, but most young Catholics under 18 attend with their families anyway (if they come from a church-going Catholic family), so I don’t see how they could be absent just because they don’t like the music… As far as college students go, there are bible studies, Catechism classes, social work groups, etc., that are perfect for evangelization. There are also RCIA classes and retreats.
A valid point.It is interesting that we expect RCIA candidates to leave the Mass after the Gospel reading (having been evangelized elsewhere), but we try to evangelize young Catholics at the Mass itself by trying to cater to their likes and dislikes.
Yes indeed! We must evangelize ALL! Christ came to save ALL and the Gospel message is intended for ALL. I certainly don’t think this music should be used in every liturgy, precisely for the reasons you give. Some people simply don’t like it. Just as I don’t want to hinder a 16 year old’s ability to come to Christ by insisting on only using Gregorian chant in every single liturgy, I don’t want to limit YOUR ability to come to Christ by insisting on Matt Maher at every single liturgy. I just think the Church is a big tent. There is ample room to praise God in different ways.As I said before, what about everyone else? I’ve been putting up with adolescent pop and rock music at Mass for more than 15 years, and yet I still go to Mass. I don’t like it. But it doesn’t excuse me from attending Mass.And believe me, people like me need to be evangelized too.
True. That’s why I’m glad we’re having this discussion. I may be wrong. As I skim Bishop Sample’s letter, and as I read, for instance, Ratzinger (who I LOVE) in Spirit of the Liturgy, the preference is CERTAINLY for chant and polyphony. I don’t deny that for a moment. But yet, I come back to the fact that these conferences are producing tons of spiritual fruit. Among them are:Some would say that admitting this type of music into the liturgy is very close to being sacreligious.( This is no criticism of individuals who provide the music, who are undoubtably good, generous with their gifts and sincere.) Is there no other venue in the 16 waking hours of our day to bring people to Christ?
I really don’t have any problem at all with the conferences, and think they are probably a very, very good thing. My interest is with sacred music for the Mass.True. That’s why I’m glad we’re having this discussion. I may be wrong. As I skim Bishop Sample’s letter, and as I read, for instance, Ratzinger (who I LOVE) in Spirit of the Liturgy, the preference is CERTAINLY for chant and polyphony. I don’t deny that for a moment. But yet, I come back to the fact that these conferences are producing tons of spiritual fruit. Among them are:
I also still come back to the fact that Archbishop Chaput (Steubenville of the Rockies) as well as Cardinal Burke (Steubenville Mid-America is not technically in the Archdiocese of St. Louis, but it is sponsored and organized by the Archdiocese of St. Louis) found no problems with the conferences, or at least an insufficient number of problems to justify shutting them down. Archbishop Chaput and Cardinal Burke are certainly not liturgical liberals.
- Powerful confessions (obviously, I can’t and won’t say more about this, but trust me on this point)
- Vocations
- Deeper, more vibrant faith lives among teenagers
- Increased love of the Mass and of the Holy Eucharist
Interesting question. Since Music is not required for Mass, I would argue that there has to be more to it than just being some sort of conduit. I would argue that, at least to the extent that it does not actually detract from the dignity due to God during the liturgy, then, yes, our worship should be performed in a way that is “enjoyable”." First of all, is it really necessary that we “enjoy” the music? Isn’t the music more of a sacred conduit for us to pray the Mass?"
What did Cardinal Burke say? I’d love to read that if you have a link for it.I really don’t have any problem at all with the conferences, and think they are probably a very, very good thing. My interest is with sacred music for the Mass.
I’m not at all saying that the people involved with the non-sacred style music are sinning or are subjectively wrong for participating in it. The reason why is that, aside from the writings of Bishops Olmsted, Sample and Cardinal Burke, there has been little or no SPECIFIC guidance on these matters from our bishops (even though the Popes have been very vocal and specific about it). How can we be held responsible for things we don’t know or things that we may have been misled about (whether by omission or commission)? Frankly, I think that everyone has had the best of intentions. But maybe now, 50 years after Vat.II, we need to settle down a bit and try to see where we’ve gone a bit overboard.
Here is one. I’ll try to find others.forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/5255/cardinal-burke-speaking-on-sacred-music/p1What did Cardinal Burke say? I’d love to read that if you have a link for it.
I heartily agree that the Church must evangelize. That means bringing the Church to the world, not the world into the Church. Evangelization does not mean cavalierly junking ancient and venerable traditions in favor of whatever modernist mush might keep the pews a little fuller.Actually, I think it’s a terrible thing. The first mission of the Church is to evangelize, so says Pope Paul VI. John Paul II said in Redemptoris Missio the time has come to place all of the Church’s energy into the New Evangelization.
With all due respect, I think we should listen to God first (Acts 5:29). God’s voice can be heard in Catholic Tradition, not in the spirit of this godless age (and what passes for “culture” therein). To withhold any part of the Church’s treasury of beautiful music, devotions,or art in favor of some modernistic simulacra is not Evangelization, but giving serpents and stones to souls in need of fish and bread.We mustn’t take the attitude of, “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.” Rather, we must listen to people first.
Whether or not a music is “enjoyable” is a totally subjective matter. Whether it is “dignified” is less so.I would argue that, at least to the extent that it does not actually detract from the dignity due to God during the liturgy, then, yes, our worship should be performed in a way that is “enjoyable”.
Sorry that’s so garbled.We can go without cheeseburgers on Fridays for love of God; can we not forswear the junky pop pablum during our musical pallettes have become accustomed to on Sundays, for the same reason?
While it is true that sacred music is comprised of music and text, the type/style of music to which the text is set is one of the criteria used to determine whether or not it is sacred. This can be found throughout all of Church history up to the most recent papal (and other magisterial) documents on the subject. The music must have a sacred character that is not associated with secular life.I don’t agree with that exactly, particular where Opus qualified the form as “sacred music.” Music, in and of itself, can in no way be deemed “sacred.” It requires a direct (or indirect, as in the case of associative organ pieces) with a sacred and/or liturgical text.