Does NFP really work?

[Debora123]

Do you really need “grave” reasons to use NFP to avoid anyway? I really don’t see why you would. Did I miss something?

No, you don’t. Serious reasons are enough. But some posters here seem to be saying that no one EVER has ANY good enough reason to not have more than 2 kids. So I just jumped right on to using “grave.”

 

[Debora123]

OF course there are grave reasons to not have more than 2 kids. Honestly though a generic “the economy is crazy and our lives are fast paced” doesn’t really seem grave, but …that’s where the rest of my previous reply comes in. If it IS really grave, then they should follow God’s design to avoid conception and abstain from that which makes another child possible.

When I was referring to the economy and to the fast pace, I was referring to people not having enough money to support themselves, and both parents having to work full time or overtime just to put food on the table. Sorry, I guess I did not make that clear.

Anyway, this whole discussion I started originated from another poster’s statements here, saying that couples who marry young and only have 2 kids are practically practicing sexual anorexia via NFP and this is not healthy. (please see post #60)

So I was asking that poster what a couple should do if they DO marry young but genuinely end up not being able handle/afford more than 2 kids. Should they then be cursed to deal with “unhealthy sexual anorexia?” Just wanted to know her views on that.

 

[Castello]

We get things so twisted and upside down.

The DEFAULT setting for marriage is get married, have sex, welcome babies as they come.

That is how a healthy marriage is supposed to be.

When there is a serious reason not to welcome a child, the couple needs to abstain from relations. The Church knows that abstaining may cause some people to sin, through masturbation or adultery, so, as an alternative a couple may monitor the wife’s fertility signs and choose to have relations only when she is infertile.

Using NFP or abstaining for long periods of time is going to be difficult, it is not supposed to be that way - so, something is wrong and making the couple do something that is unnatural to the nature of marriage (abstaining or using NFP to avoid).

NFP is to be the exception in marriage, not the rule.

To go into marriage saying “something is gonna be sooooo wrong for the next 20, 30 years that we will never be able to welcome more than 2 children” flies on the face of faith in God and our command to BE NOT AFRAID.

Open wide your hearts, welcome the blessings God has planned for you.

 

[Debora123]

We get things so twisted and upside down.

The DEFAULT setting for marriage is get married, have sex, welcome babies as they come.

That is how a healthy marriage is supposed to be.

When there is a serious reason not to welcome a child, the couple needs to abstain from relations. The Church knows that abstaining may cause some people to sin, through masturbation or adultery, so, as an alternative a couple may monitor the wife’s fertility signs and choose to have relations only when she is infertile.

Using NFP or abstaining for long periods of time is going to be difficult, it is not supposed to be that way - so, something is wrong and making the couple do something that is unnatural to the nature of marriage (abstaining or using NFP to avoid).

NFP is to be the exception in marriage, not the rule.

To go into marriage saying “something is gonna be sooooo wrong for the next 20, 30 years that we will never be able to welcome more than 2 children” flies on the face of faith in God and our command to BE NOT AFRAID.

Open wide your hearts, welcome the blessings God has planned for you.

I’m not referring to a scenario where a couple gets married and already has the mentality that they just don’t want more than 2 kids. I’m talking about people who genuinely CANNOT handle/afford anymore once they’ve had their second. They have no choice but for NFP to be “the rule” in their marriage. Does this mean they have an unhealthy sex life?

 

[twoangels]

So you’re saying that there is never a just reason to avoid having more than 2 kids?

I know for a fact that some people have to “get creative” and do everything extremely on the cheap just so they can HAVE 2 kids…

Would using NFP be unhealthy/anorexic for this marriage, as you stated in your earlier post?

Having more than 2 kids doesn’t mean having more than 2 kids at once. My Dad’s aunt is the same age as he is. One of the girls’ I went to gradeschool with was one of two until she became an adult. After she was out of the house, her parents ended up having 3 more children. Remember, if you get married at 22 and hit menopause at 55, that’s 33 years of fertility.

Its a very rare thing for people to spend their entire marriage staying in the same income bracket.

I think that there are definitely health reasons that can force a couple to practice NFP obsessingly strictly, but this is unforunate.

"Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. Unless the Lord keep the city, he watcheth in vain that keepeth it. In vain ye rise before the light: rise not till ye have rested, O ye that eat the bread of sorrow.

When he hath given sleep to his beloved: lo, chidlren are a heritage from the Lord, and the fruit of the womb a reward. Lik as arrows in the hand of the mighty one: so are the children of those who have been cast out. Blessed is the man whose desire is satisfied with them: he shall not be confounded, when he speaketh with his enemies at the gate" Psalm cxxvi (copies from the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin

I take this to mean this. If you grasp and worry and frett over having tight control over your life (and your family size), all your efforts to have control are in vain. You “eat the bread of sorrow” We are reassured in this passage that God will take care of us, that God will ensure we get the rest we need and that it is emphasized that children are gifts and a reward from God. Large families are a great blessing.

As a friend of mine who has a large family told me, often she feels like her plate is about to overflow. She asks God “Please don’t give me any more.” He than hands her a larger plate.

Its very similiar to the passage about the Lilies of the Field in the gospels.

 

[twoangels]

The answer I keep getting here is… well, it’s not really an answer to my original question. Instead it’s just posters basically saying that there is no such thing as grave reasons to avoid having more than 2 kids. I don’t believe this, personally.

I’m not saying that there is NEVER a grave reason to have only two kids or even only one. I’m saying that our cultural view that 2 children is the ideal is a rather anorexically warped view of what a family should look like.

 

[twoangels]

I’m not referring to a scenario where a couple gets married and already has the mentality that they just don’t want more than 2 kids. I’m talking about people who genuinely CANNOT handle/afford anymore once they’ve had their second. They have no choice but for NFP to be “the rule” in their marriage. Does this mean they have an unhealthy sex life?

I think that if they had a serious enough reason to sacrifice that much sex, than the sacrifice becomes an act of love. Its a great cross to bear, but because it is done out of love and not selfishness, than it can bear good fruit. I think though it requires a grave reason because sex IS important to a marriage. You have to see sex as a very important expression of love. It is so important that our reasons for avoiding pregnancy have to be sufficient enough to give up the good that sex is.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I’m not saying that there is NEVER a grave reason to have only two kids or even only one. I’m saying that our cultural view that 2 children is the ideal is a rather anorexically warped view of what a family should look like.

I agree with you that there’s absolutely nothing negative about having 3+ kids (hey, my brother has 9.) But at the end of the day, isn’t it for the couple to discern their own feelings on the matter?

 

[Debora123]

I think that if they had a serious enough reason to sacrifice that much sex, than the sacrifice becomes an act of love. Its a great cross to bear, but because it is done out of love and not selfishness, than it can bear good fruit. I think though it requires a grave reason because sex IS important to a marriage. You have to see sex as a very important expression of love. It is so important that our reasons for avoiding pregnancy have to be sufficient enough to give up the good that sex is.

Ah, gotcha. This answers my question. Thanks!

 

[twoangels]

I agree with you that there’s absolutely nothing negative about having 3+ kids (hey, my brother has 9.) But at the end of the day, isn’t it for the couple to discern their own feelings on the matter?

I was talking about a cultural view. I think that people who aren’t married and who start daydreaming and pre-planning how many children they’re going to have in their marriage are making judgments based more on what the culture has taught them than about their own lived our experiences. I think the best and wisest answer to “How many children do you plan on having?” should be “We’ll see what God has in store for us.” It not an answer that says no to NFP. It just means that till you’re practicing NFP and dealing with all of life’s struggles, you won’t know what its like and you really can’t know ahead of time what you can handle.

I just think that the tendency to have larger families has more to do with the lack of need to have only two children than with the method failing couples.

 

[divinefaith]

I think that if they had a serious enough reason to sacrifice that much sex, than the sacrifice becomes an act of love. Its a great cross to bear, but because it is done out of love and not selfishness, than it can bear good fruit. I think though it requires a grave reason because sex IS important to a marriage. You have to see sex as a very important expression of love. It is so important that our reasons for avoiding pregnancy have to be sufficient enough
to give up the good that sex is.

So it seems like couples who have their just reasons to avoid are punished by this period of abstinence -sighs

 

[Newsy]

The idea that using NFP is the same as sexual anorexia is ridiculous. Using NFP, choosing times of abstinence, has made our “together time” more passionate. To further the food references, using ABC’s is like living in a 24 hour buffet. It’s always there and available, no big deal. Once we started NFP, all of the sudden it wasn’t available all the time, it made us appreciate it more.

Large families are a great thing, not everyone is called to have a large family. It comes down to prayer for discernment, health and financial responsibilities. IF, in order to afford more children, I would have to spend more time away from them, this would be something to consider. I do agree that some people get caught up in the idea of a big house with a big yard and 2.3 kids, but some may be called to only 2 or 3 kids.

The thread was asking if NFP works. Yes, but it isn’t always easy. NFP has been a blessing to me and to many. It is up to you to discern how many kids God wants you to have. The cool thing is that, no matter whether you use NFP or ABC’s, God is always in control!

 

[Em_in_FL]

To answer the OP’s question - I’m 33, my husband is 43. We have 4 children.

I think that if they had a serious enough reason to sacrifice that much sex, than the sacrifice becomes an act of love. Its a great cross to bear, but because it is done out of love and not selfishness, than it can bear good fruit. I think though it requires a grave reason because sex IS important to a marriage. You have to see sex as a very important expression of love. It is so important that our reasons for avoiding pregnancy have to be sufficient enough to give up the good that sex is.

This is such a well-worded post! I agree completely!

We have used NFP (sympto-thermal method) throughout our marriage - yes it works.
There were times when we followed all the rules completely - no failures whatsoever.
There were other times when we decided to slack on some of the rules - with full knowledge. Not to say we were actively trying to conceive, but just breaking some of the rules - that’s how we got to #4! There are times and seasons when we felt it was necessary to avoid conception (as in, spacing out our children), and other times when God was opening our hearts for more. As crazy as I could ever imagine it would be to have more children, I trust God will take care of us if He moves to open our hearts to more in the future. But for now, I need a break and will be following the rules completely.

 

[twoangels]

The idea that using NFP is the same as sexual anorexia is ridiculous.

I never said that NFP is the same as sexual anorexia. I said that the idea that 2 children is the ideal and that large families are obviously the result of NFP failures is based on an anorexic view of having children. If you use NFP with the contraceptive mentality, you are going to practice sexual anorexia. If you used it the way its supposed to be used, it’d like a healthy diet that is personalized to your day to day needs.

 

[Newsy]

I never said that NFP is the same as sexual anorexia. I said that the idea that 2 children is the ideal and that large families are obviously the result of NFP failures is based on an anorexic view of having children. If you use NFP with the contraceptive mentality, you are going to practice sexual anorexia. If you used it the way its supposed to be used, it’d like a healthy diet that is personalized to your day to day needs.

Sorry! I misunderstood

 

[manualman]

Glad it’s worked for you. Unfortunately, in this crazy economy and fast paced life style, it really is not unheard of for some couples to really not be able to handle more than 2 children:

So my questions for “Two Angels” still stands.

That’s where we thought we were as of about 6 years ago. We continued to use NFP. Yeah, it sucks to be ineligible the best days of the month. But without it, we might have took a LOT longer to recognize that what were initially good reasons after the economic shock and emotional fatigue of our non-sleper baby #2 faded over time. With the sacrifices of NFP, we were forced to confront the fading seriousness of that reason to avoid monthly and re-evaluate it. Once kid #2 was almost 4 years old and sleeping regularly, we started wondering about the seriousness of that reason. One “what the heck” evening and child #3 came along. Now I’m broke, driving a 17 year old car and have little in the savings account. And I don’t regret a thing. Yeah we used up the safety margin, so what? Life is not something you can orchestrate 100% because if you try, you miss out on the very best things. Our third child is the source of unbounded joy, energy and life in our home. And she’d never have happened if we were coldly analyzing the situation while enjoying truncated intimacy via contraception.

My experience says that Humanae Vitae and the supporting developments since is the brightest light the Church ignited in the 20th century. As the rest of Western Civilization contracepts itself into oblivion, this will only become more and more clear.

 

[Debora123]

That’s where we thought we were as of about 6 years ago. We continued to use NFP. Yeah, it sucks to be ineligible the best days of the month. But without it, we might have took a LOT longer to recognize that what were initially good reasons after the economic shock and emotional fatigue of our non-sleper baby #2 faded over time. With the sacrifices of NFP, we were forced to confront the fading seriousness of that reason to avoid monthly and re-evaluate it. Once kid #2 was almost 4 years old and sleeping regularly, we started wondering about the seriousness of that reason. One “what the heck” evening and child #3 came along. Now I’m broke, driving a 17 year old car and have little in the savings account. And I don’t regret a thing. Yeah we used up the safety margin, so what? Life is not something you can orchestrate 100% because if you try, you miss out on the very best things. Our third child is the source of unbounded joy, energy and life in our home. And she’d never have happened if we were coldly analyzing the situation while enjoying truncated intimacy via contraception.

My experience says that Humanae Vitae and the supporting developments since is the brightest light the Church ignited in the 20th century. As the rest of Western Civilization contracepts itself into oblivion, this will only become more and more clear.

Perhaps you don’t mean for it to come off this way, but this post may come off as a bit insulting for couples who have just reasons to avoid child #3.

You chose to have intercourse on a fertile day and thus baby #3 was created. Now you claim to be “broke.” I am sure all your children are a blessing, as children always are. But forgive me if I’m wrong, this post kinda comes off as saying we are all obligated to have children to the point of being broke.

Again, I think this discernment is between the couple and God… and it really bothers me sometimes when people with more kids seem to get on their high horse and look their noses down on those who DIDN’T come to the prayerful conclusion that having more kids was the best thing for the family.

Sorry if I’m way off and if this is not what you are trying to get across. But this is the impression I get sometimes around here…

 

[manualman]

Actually my point is the opposite. God’s design for human sexuality transcends rules and emotionally detached analysis. There ARE people who have “serious” reasons to avoid more kids, perhaps even after 1. The beauty of the way we are made is that we are NOT called to boil the analysis down to a soulles list of rigid critieria for when NFP to avoid is acceptable or not. The method itself is compatible with human nature so that rationalization, IF it occurs, breaks down over time under the weight of human nature. If you are even pretty sure you have a serious reason to avoid, go ahead and use NFP to avoid and the method itself will assist you over time in verifying that ‘seriousness.’ I have no doubt that if we had continued to see a truly serious reason to avoid that would could have using NFP. But had we simply switched to using a pill, we most likely would not have noticed that the initial serious reason had faded away. That we chose to abandon “caution” was simply God smashing down our wall of rationalizing using natural human sexuality as originally designed.

This is my testimony and my experience, not a judgement of people who have fewer kids than I do. No two human situations are ever truly the same. This is precisely why the Church doesn’t rigidly define what a “serious reason to avoid” is.

Btw, if you feel defensive from my post, recognize that that isn’t a bad thing. Feeling defensive is an opportunity to reality check your assumptions. I experience it regularly when family and friends talk about their 5,6, 7 kids. Their witness awes me, but shouldn’t make me feel defensive or like I don’t measure up. We all just have to recognize that different people come to different conclusions even in apparently similar circumstances. Americans hate that for some reason. We seem to have this bizarre need to all be alike. I dunno why.

 

[Debora123]

Perhaps you don’t mean for it to come off this way, but this post may come off as a bit insulting for couples who have just reasons to avoid child #3.

You chose to have intercourse on a fertile day and thus baby #3 was created. Now you claim to be “broke.” I am sure all your children are a blessing, as children always are. But forgive me if I’m wrong, this post kinda comes off as saying we are all obligated to have children to the point of being broke.

Again, I think this discernment is between the couple and God… and it really bothers me sometimes when people with more kids seem to get on their high horse and look their noses down on those who DIDN’T come to the prayerful conclusion that having more kids was the best thing for the family.

Sorry if I’m way off and if this is not what you are trying to get across. But this is the impression I get sometimes around here…

I’d also like to add that some couples find it best to have the appropriate # of kids to where they are still able to afford taking them on vacations to see different parts of the country/world or to visit family or to go to Disney World.

Some feel best if they can afford having enough to put their kids in private Catholic schools and help them pay for college.

Some families may want to be able to afford keeping one parent in the house while the other doesn’t have to work over time to make ends meet and can spend more time at home with the family.

The above are all things I personally plan on keeping in mind when trying to discern # of children. I’d love to be able to afford taking my kids on vacations to see different places and relatives… and maybe a trip to Disney. I’d love to be able to afford putting my kids in private schools and not making them worry about college loans. I’d love to afford quitting my job so that I could be a full time stay at home mom while not having to send my husband off to work extra hours.

We are not ALL required to keep having children until we are broke. It just depends on what we think is best for our family, how we want to parent, and what we think God calls us to.

 

[Debora123]

Actually my point is the opposite. God’s design for human sexuality transcends rules and emotionally detached analysis. There ARE people who have “serious” reasons to avoid more kids, perhaps even after 1. The beauty of the way we are made is that we are NOT called to boil the analysis down to a soulles list of rigid critieria for when NFP to avoid is acceptable or not. The method itself is compatible with human nature so that rationalization, IF it occurs, breaks down over time under the weight of human nature. If you are even pretty sure you have a serious reason to avoid, go ahead and use NFP to avoid and the method itself will assist you over time in verifying that ‘seriousness.’ I have no doubt that if we had continued to see a truly serious reason to avoid that would could have using NFP. But had we simply switched to using a pill, we most likely would not have noticed that the initial serious reason had faded away. That we chose to abandon “caution” was simply God smashing down our wall of rationalizing using natural human sexuality as originally designed.

This is my testimony and my experience, not a judgement of people who have fewer kids than I do. No two human situations are ever truly the same. This is precisely why the Church doesn’t rigidly define what a “serious reason to avoid” is.

Btw, if you feel defensive from my post, recognize that that isn’t a bad thing. Feeling defensive is an opportunity to reality check your assumptions. I experience it regularly when family and friends talk about their 5,6, 7 kids. Their witness awes me, but shouldn’t make me feel defensive or like I don’t measure up. We all just have to recognize that different people come to different conclusions even in apparently similar circumstances. Americans hate that for some reason. We seem to have this bizarre need to all be alike. I dunno why.

Ah, I see. Thanks, and sorry for having gotten the wrong impression.