Does Orthodox Judaism consider itself subject to change?

[Hatikvah]

Here, I am assuming that this is a mainstream Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism consensus, or even individual views; I know that Reform Judaism implies change, and Conservative Judaism (I think?) involves cultural appropriations.

Now, by “change,” I would necessarily mean “to make or become different” in a general sense for the purposes of the OP on this thread.

Catholicism has an understanding of doctrinal development, and most Protestants would admit that the Church changes in one sense or another; religions reliant upon philosophy, like Hinduism or Buddhism, certainly change in some format, with doctrines being elaborated upon or added throughout history, movements, and regions. We can even see moral development in revelation to Israel in the Hebrew Bible with the adding up of Divine Law, as in Leviticus.

But would Orthodox Jews consider their faith subject to change? I’ve noticed that the two major predecessors of Rabbinical Judaism in general, to the exclusion of the Essenes, the Pharisees and Sadducees, had some differences in the views of the Law and in doctrine.

Also, in the Talmud, the two schools of Hillel and Shammai were pretty antithetical to each other, so a change would have had to take place. The very fact that the Oral Torah was written down as the Talmud may be significative of change.

 

[Kaninchen]

Here, I am assuming that this is a mainstream Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism consensus, or even individual views; I know that Reform Judaism implies change, and Conservative Judaism (I think?) involves cultural appropriations.

Now, by “change,” I would necessarily mean “to make or become different” in a general sense for the purposes of the OP on this thread.

Catholicism has an understanding of doctrinal development, and most Protestants would admit that the Church changes in one sense or another; religions reliant upon philosophy, like Hinduism or Buddhism, certainly change in some format, with doctrines being elaborated upon or added throughout history, movements, and regions. We can even see moral development in revelation to Israel in the Hebrew Bible with the adding up of Divine Law, as in Leviticus.

But would Orthodox Jews consider their faith subject to change? I’ve noticed that the two major predecessors of Rabbinical Judaism in general, to the exclusion of the Essenes, the Pharisees and Sadducees, had some differences in the views of the Law and in doctrine.

Also, in the Talmud, the two schools of Hillel and Shammai were pretty antithetical to each other, so a change would have had to take place. The very fact that the Oral Torah was written down as the Talmud may be significative of change.

Why do you insist on the term ‘Rabbinical Judaism’?

 

[Hatikvah]

Why do you insist on the term ‘Rabbinical Judaism’?

Primarily to distinguish it from, say, Kabbalah or “Jewitchery” (which isn’t even Judaism, they’re just neopagans who insist upon their Judaism). Also, that might take out some of the more spontaneous, radical movements that aren’t part of mainstream Judaism.

I’m trying to recognize the modern diversity that can be found in Judaism, but not making it far too specific.

 

[Kaninchen]

Primarily to distinguish it from, say, Kabbalah or “Jewitchery” (which isn’t even Judaism, they’re just neopagans who insist upon their Judaism). Also, that might take out some of the more spontaneous, radical movements that aren’t part of mainstream Judaism.

I’m trying to recognize the modern diversity that can be found in Judaism, but not making it far too specific.

Well, I think you could just leave it to us to decide what’s Jewish or not.

 

[Hatikvah]

Well, I think you could just leave it to us to decide what’s Jewish or not.

Okay!

 

[Kaninchen]

Now, by “change,” I would necessarily mean “to make or become different” in a general sense for the purposes of the OP on this thread.

There tend rarely to be simple answers to Jewish questions and this is a monumental “on the one hand, meanwhile on the other hand, while on another hand entirely” question so, as an example of the question of change and orthodoxies, here’s an article from Haaretz* which involves a topic with which Catholics may be only too familiar.

*If you get an ad, just press refresh

 

[meltzerboy]

Here, I am assuming that this is a mainstream Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism consensus, or even individual views; I know that Reform Judaism implies change, and Conservative Judaism (I think?) involves cultural appropriations.

Now, by “change,” I would necessarily mean “to make or become different” in a general sense for the purposes of the OP on this thread.

Catholicism has an understanding of doctrinal development, and most Protestants would admit that the Church changes in one sense or another; religions reliant upon philosophy, like Hinduism or Buddhism, certainly change in some format, with doctrines being elaborated upon or added throughout history, movements, and regions. We can even see moral development in revelation to Israel in the Hebrew Bible with the adding up of Divine Law, as in Leviticus.

But would Orthodox Jews consider their faith subject to change? I’ve noticed that the two major predecessors of Rabbinical Judaism in general, to the exclusion of the Essenes, the Pharisees and Sadducees, had some differences in the views of the Law and in doctrine.

Also, in the Talmud, the two schools of Hillel and Shammai were pretty antithetical to each other, so a change would have had to take place. The very fact that the Oral Torah was written down as the Talmud may be significative of change.

Let’s just say there are more principles in Orthodox Judaism that are not subject to change than there are in other streams of Judaism, and that would apply, I believe, to all the divisions within the Orthodox Jewish movement. One broad example is the sanctity and divine inspiration of both the Written Law and Oral Law, which does not necessarily mean that all of the minutiae contained therein need be interpreted in exactly the same way by all Orthodox Jewish rabbis and laypeople. But the Law in its entirety will not change.

 

[Kaninchen]

There tend rarely to be simple answers to Jewish questions and this is a monumental “on the one hand, meanwhile on the other hand, while on another hand entirely” question so, as an example of the question of change and orthodoxies, here’s an article from Haaretz* which involves a topic with which Catholics may be only too familiar.

*If you get an ad, just press refresh

If you have problems with the Haaretz site, here’s an alternative.

 

[Hatikvah]

Let’s just say there are more principles in Orthodox Judaism that are not subject to change than there are in other streams of Judaism, and that would apply, I believe, to all the divisions within the Orthodox Jewish movement. One broad example is the sanctity and divine inspiration of both the Written Law and Oral Law, which does not necessarily mean that all of the minutiae contained therein need be interpreted in exactly the same way by all Orthodox Jewish rabbis and laypeople. But the Law in its entirety will not change.

Yes, that makes sense. So there is room for some differences in interpretation (as there is not one uniform interpretation), but the Law itself does not change.

If you have problems with the Haaretz site, here’s an alternative.

I couldn’t use Haaretz because I didn’t have an account, therefore I could only read a little bit, so I did end up using the alternative (thanks for linking it). So there are rabbis and individual Orthodox Jews with different interests, whether they’re conservative or liberal, particularly in the case of female rabbis?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Yes, that makes sense. So there is room for some differences in interpretation (as there is not one uniform interpretation), but the Law itself does not change.

So there are rabbis and individual Orthodox Jews with different interests, whether they’re conservative or liberal, particularly in the case of female rabbis?

I would say not only does the interpretation change but the practice changes from person to person (or community to community).

 

[phil19034]

Here, I am assuming that this is a mainstream Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism consensus, or even individual views; I know that Reform Judaism implies change, and Conservative Judaism (I think?) involves cultural appropriations.

Now, by “change,” I would necessarily mean “to make or become different” in a general sense for the purposes of the OP on this thread.

Catholicism has an understanding of doctrinal development, and most Protestants would admit that the Church changes in one sense or another; religions reliant upon philosophy, like Hinduism or Buddhism, certainly change in some format, with doctrines being elaborated upon or added throughout history, movements, and regions. We can even see moral development in revelation to Israel in the Hebrew Bible with the adding up of Divine Law, as in Leviticus.

But would Orthodox Jews consider their faith subject to change? I’ve noticed that the two major predecessors of Rabbinical Judaism in general, to the exclusion of the Essenes, the Pharisees and Sadducees, had some differences in the views of the Law and in doctrine.

Also, in the Talmud, the two schools of Hillel and Shammai were pretty antithetical to each other, so a change would have had to take place. The very fact that the Oral Torah was written down as the Talmud may be significative of change.

Hello Hatikvah,

I noticed that you are Protestant. I’m just curious, is there a question about Catholicism that you are trying to answer here? My wife is Jewish, so this post has me interested.

God Bless

 

[Hatikvah]

Hello Hatikvah,

I noticed that you are Protestant. I’m just curious, is there a question about Catholicism that you are trying to answer here? My wife is Jewish, so this post has me interested.

God Bless

Hi, Phil.

On this thread in particular, there isn’t anything about Catholicism that I’m asking nor answering. That’s why I posted this on Non-Catholic Religions. I merely referred to Catholic doctrinal development as an example, inquiring whether Orthodox Judaism has an equivalent or anything relative. However, I’m happy to add that I have certainly asked questions here on CAF about Catholicism and have gotten fulfilling, respectful answers.

God bless.

 

[TheAtheist]

On this thread in particular, there isn’t anything about Catholicism that I’m asking nor answering. That’s why I posted this on Non-Catholic Religions. I merely referred to Catholic doctrinal development as an example, inquiring whether Orthodox Judaism has an equivalent or anything relative. However, I’m happy to add that I have certainly asked questions here on CAF about Catholicism and have gotten fulfilling, respectful answers.

You know what Hatikvah… threads like this always remind me of a niggling issue in all my time on the internet looking for forums where believers of a certain faith collect…

I’ve never run across a JAF if you will… or maybe that should be a JEF.

CAF is quite lucky to have a few that are so knowledgeable…

 

[Kaninchen]

I couldn’t use Haaretz because I didn’t have an account, therefore I could only read a little bit, so I did end up using the alternative (thanks for linking it). So there are rabbis and individual Orthodox Jews with different interests, whether they’re conservative or liberal, particularly in the case of female rabbis?

The reason I linked to it was the whole “two Jews, at least three opinions” aspect to anything and everything not least the question of change.

Judaism is a religion of Law and everyone’s a lawyer.

 

[petra22]

The reason I linked to it was the whole “two Jews, at least three opinions” aspect to anything and everything not least the question of change.

Judaism is a religion of Law and everyone’s a lawyer.

sorry, but that’s how I see U.S. elites at this time…

 

[Kaninchen]

sorry, but that’s how I see U.S. elites at this time…

I’m afraid you’re talking to somebody with not the slightest interest in the US and what Americans get up to.

 

[carefullytread]

The rather eccentric political philosopher David Friedman (son of the more famous Milton) has a book online about different legal systems, specifically trying to understand cultures that used a form of law that is substantially different than the one people are used to in the United States.

Here’s his chapter on Jewish Law. He is very interested in the question of “How does the law adapt to changing circumstances when it comes from God?” The answer he claims Judaism comes up with is “The solution to the problem of legal uniformity was a simple one. Truth is not determined by majority vote, but law can be.”

I’m not an orthodox Jew and neither is Friedman, so I have no idea if he has the right description of how they address this problem, but it’s an interesting read regardless.

 

[Hatikvah]

You know what Hatikvah… threads like this always remind me of a niggling issue in all my time on the internet looking for forums where believers of a certain faith collect…

I’ve never run across a JAF if you will… or maybe that should be a JEF.

CAF is quite lucky to have a few that are so knowledgeable…

I agree! We’re quite a diverse bunch, and that’s fantastic.