Does papal infallibility interfere with free will?

[Student09]

From my priest:

Conditions that must be met for a papal statement to be infallible

• Must teach or in some way clarify
• Can’t contradict previous teachings
• Must involve faith and morals
• To be held by all
• Statement made of his own free will
• He must invoke the full authority of his office

This is helpful, thank you. Ok, so let’s say that a pope, of his own free will and invoking the full authority of his office, makes the statement, to be held by all, that there is no God. (Why a pope would do this … do not ask me. It’s just an example.) That would be considered not infallible … because it contradicts the deposit of faith. Correct? (By the way, has a pope ever done something like this?)

Ok, now let’s say that a pope - wishing to mislead/distract the people - makes a statement that meets all the above conditions, and does not contradict the deposit of faith or any previous teachings, but is, however, false. What then?

Now, do you think the Holy Spirit would choose such a person to be pope?

 

[Rence]

Ok, so let me get this straight. You are saying that there are popes that have taught error on faith and morals? Or are you saying that there were popes who really wanted to teach error on faith and morals but were mysteriously unable to do so? I always thought the corruption of the “bad” popes was more general and did not apply to this one area … Please clarify.

I’m not sure what the Church reveals about teachings on faith and morals regarding the “bad” popes. I haven’t gotten that far yet. However, teaching is done by example. Therefore, does not a Pope teach through his words and actions? And whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant when speaking with someone who does not believe in papal infallibility: if they were able to use their free will to do harm, what was to stop them from using their free will in other areas? Free will is free will. There is nothing in the Church that says that the Holy Spirit would guide the leaders of the Church and that their free will would be altered so that they couldn’t make a mistake.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Stephen_VI

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XII

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_IX

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Urban_VI

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_VII

 

[Rence]

This is helpful, thank you. Ok, so let’s say that a pope, of his own free will and invoking the full authority of his office, makes the statement, to be held by all, that there is no God. (Why a pope would do this … do not ask me. It’s just an example.) That would be considered not infallible … because it contradicts the deposit of faith. Correct? (By the way, has a pope ever done something like this?)

Ok, now let’s say that a pope - wishing to mislead/distract the people - makes a statement that meets all the above conditions, and does not contradict the deposit of faith or any previous teachings, but is, however, false. What then?

Now, do you think the Holy Spirit would choose such a person to be pope?

The Holy spirit doesn’t choose the popes. The holy spirit guides the members of the conclave to choose a pope. Obviously, they have free will too.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

. And it does have to do with free will. If you don’t have free will, you are not capable of misinterpretation or disobedience, but the fact that one has free will means that things outside the Holy Spirit influence them, and they have the free will (whether intentional or not) to misinterpret or minunderstand, because being human, they have their own beliefs, values, even biases.
.

No, if the Pope could speak error in faith and morals he would not be infallible. Period. It in no way effects his free will. If he is fallible, he can speak error. If he is infallible he cannot, otherwise he would not be infallible. How can a person who is infallible speak error? He’s infallible. You can’t be infallible and able to speak error at the same time. You would cease to be infallible just like a triangle ceases to be a triangle when it has more than three sides.

Free will does not turn someone into something they are not. Free will molds a person into what they are.

Exactly. If the Pope is infallible, he is infallible. Free will, as you said, cannot make him somehting he is not… ie fallible, able to speak error. If he is fallible he is fallible. If he is infallible he is infallible. He cannot be both. He cannot be infallible (in faith and morals) and capable of error, because he would then not be infallible.

But the OP is talking about someone who doesn’t believe in papal infallibility.

And, as I said, that is where the discussion should be. Not whether his infallibity (which the friend doesn’t even believe in in the first place) hinders the Pope’s free will.

A four sided triagle is not a triangle, free will has nothing to do with it.

Yep that was exactly my point. A four sided triangle is not a triangle just like a person who can speak error is not infallible, it is a contradiction, like a four sided triangle. An infallible person speaking error is every bit a contradiction as a four sided triangle.

For example: Adam and Eve were told not to touch the fruit from the Tree of Life. They used their free will to disobey him. They didn’t turn the fruit into a diamond. They didn’t make something out of nothing.

A contradiction is nothing. An infallible being able to speak error is a contradiction. They would not be an infallible being, they would be fallible.

So the analogy of using Free will to create a four sided triangle does not encompass free will.

Sure it does, because it is a contradiction. The Pope, who is infallible (meaning he cannot error) can no more teach error (because he would then stop being infallible) then he could create a four sided triangle. It cannot be done. An infallible being (in faith and morals) able to teach error cannot be possible. They would cease to be infallible like a triangle ceases to be a triangle when it has more than three sides.

God bless you

 

[Student09]

I’m not sure what the Church reveals about teachings on faith and morals regarding the “bad” popes. I haven’t gotten that far yet. However, teaching is done by example. Therefore, does not a Pope teach through his words and actions? And whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant when speaking with someone who does not believe in papal infallibility: if they were able to use their free will to do harm, what was to stop them from using their free will in other areas? Free will is free will. There is nothing in the Church that says that the Holy Spirit would guide the leaders of the Church and that their free will would be altered so that they couldn’t make a mistake.

*"What infallibility does do is prevent a pope from solemnly and formally teaching as “truth” something that is, in fact, error. It does not help him know what is true, nor does it “inspire” him to teach what is true. … infallibility does not include a guarantee that any particular pope won’t “neglect” to teach the truth, or that he will be sinless, or that mere disciplinary decisions will be intelligently made. It would be nice if he were omniscient or impeccable, but his not being so will fail to bring about the destruction of the Church. " *- from Catholic.com

So infallibility does not apply to teaching by example or any such thing, only to statements made with all the conditions that Mark provided above. A pope can lead a dissolute life and even privately hold erring theological opinions without making false theological statements that must be held by the whole Church.

For example, the link you provided on Pope Benedict IX said: “He reportedly led an extremely dissolute life, and also allegedly had few qualifications for the papacy other than connections with a socially powerful family, although in terms of theology and the ordinary activities of the Church he was entirely orthodox.”

So his actions were dissolute but his theology was fine. He did not issue theological statements with the intention of misleading the Church.

 

[hellopeople]

The Holy spirit doesn’t choose the popes. The holy spirit guides the members of the conclave to choose a pope. Obviously, they have free will too.

Is it really free will if the holy spirit guides them? I don’t think so. Infallibility obviously depends on the holy spirit guiding the decisions of men, so how is that free will?

 

[hellopeople]

I would stick with the impossibility of an infallible person (in faith and morals) being able to speak error. If he could speak error he would not be infallible. Period. Free will has nothing to do with it.

God bless you

What a circular argument. The pope can’t make a mistake because he is infallible and he is infallible because he can’t make a mistake…

 

[Student09]

What a circular argument. The pope can’t make a mistake because he is infallible and he is infallible because he can’t make a mistake…

Actually it is not circular but definitional, which still isn’t helpful.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

What a circular argument. The pope can’t make a mistake because he is infallible and he is infallible because he can’t make a mistake…

No, go back and read the original post in this thread. The question was:

if the pope is infallible, does that mean that God does not allow him to use his free will to choose to teach error on faith and morals …?

“If” the Pope was infallible. The OP’s friend has asked a question where concedes that the Pope is infallible (hypothetically of course) and then asks “if” he is infallible would that hinder his free will. No it would not, because “if” he is infallible he could not speak error in faith and morals because he would then not be infallible. Free will has nothing to do with it. If he could speak error (and again the friend is asking if he were infallible) he would not be infallible.

It would be circular if the friend asked why is the Pope infallible and I answered, because he is infallible. But the friend did not ask that, he asked, “if the Pope is infallible does God not allow him to use his free will” My answer is, if he is infallible, he cannot speak error, otherwise he would not be infallible.

This is why I suggested, more than once, changing the topic of the discussion with his friend to whether or not the Pope is (not if) infallible. And not just hypothetically.

God bless you

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Actually it is not circular but definitional, which still isn’t helpful.

Your friend’s question was “if” the Pope were infallible does God hinder his free will to speak error. If the Pope were infallible he would be unable to speak error, free will has nothing to do with it because if he spoke error he would cease to be infallible.

I am fallible, does that mean that God hinders my free will if I wanted to be infallible? No because I am fallible. I cannot will myself to be something I am not. I cannot will myself to be an eight legged spider. I cannot will myself to be infallible. A Pope “if” he is infallible cannot will himself to be fallible.

I am sorry you do not find this helpful.

God bless you

 

[hellopeople]

No, go back and read the original post in this thread. The question was:

“If” the Pope was infallible. The OP’s friend has asked a question where concedes that the Pope is infallible (hypothetically of course) and then asks “if” he is infallible would that hinder his free will. No it would not, because “if” he is infallible he could not speak error in faith and morals because he would then not be infallible. Free will has nothing to do with it. If he could speak error (and again the friend is asking if he were infallible) he would not be infallible.

It would be circular if the friend asked why is the Pope infallible and I answered, because he is infallible. But the friend did not ask that, he asked, “if the Pope is infallible does God not allow him to use his free will” My answer is, if he is infallible, he cannot speak error, otherwise he would not be infallible.

This is why I suggested, more than once, changing the topic of the discussion with his friend to whether or not the Pope is (not if) infallible. And not just hypothetically.

God bless you

I see what you are saying…but HOW is he infallible? He is only infallible if the holy spirit makes it so. Right? So if the holy spirit is guiding him then he MUST not have free will.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I see what you are saying…but HOW is he infallible? He is only infallible if the holy spirit makes it so. Right? So if the holy spirit is guiding him then he MUST not have free will.

I covered that in an earlier post, probably won’t be to your satisfaction though. I’m only human. I am far to lazy to go back and find it though

Plus I am just about to leave for a week or so and don’t really want to get to far into this debate more than I have as I will be gone and unable to answer.

Here is my point, **if **the Pope is infallible he cannot speak error. If he did, he would not be infallible. I still highly suggest that the OP start with whether or not the Pope is infallible. Better yet, since he is speaking to a non-Christian, beginning with Christ and Who He claimed to be wouldn’t be a bad place to start. Maybe he has already covered that though? IDK

God bless

 

[hellopeople]

I covered that in an earlier post, probably won’t be to your satisfaction though. I’m only human. I am far to lazy to go back and find it though

Plus I am just about to leave for a week or so and don’t really want to get to far into this debate more than I have as I will be gone and unable to answer.

Here is my point, **if **the Pope is infallible he cannot speak error. If he did, he would not be infallible. I still highly suggest that the OP start with whether or not the Pope is infallible. Better yet, since he is speaking to a non-Christian, beginning with Christ and Who He claimed to be wouldn’t be a bad place to start. Maybe he has already covered that though? IDK

God bless

This is a strawman argument. You are being asked if the pope being infallible effects his free will, but you are answering a completely different question. You haven’t addressed the question of free will at all.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

This is a strawman argument. You are being asked if the pope being infallible effects his free will, but you are answering a completely different question. You haven’t addressed the question of free will at all.

I fail to see how it is a strawman argument? The friend asked “if” the Pope were infallible does that mean God then hinders his free will to speak error? My argument is, “if” he is infallible he cannot speak error, period because if he did he would then cease to be infallible. You cannot be both infallible and able to speak error in matters of faith and morals at the same time. If you could, you would not be infallible.

I am fallible, does that mean that God hinders my free will to be infallible? Even if I really wanted to be infallible? No because I cannot be infallible, I am fallible. I cannot will myself to be something I am not. I cannot will myself to be infallible. I cannot will myself to be an eight legged spider. I cannot will myself to be an elephant. The Pope, “if” he is infallible cannot will himself to speak error because he would then cease to be infallible. If if he infallible he cannot will himself to be something he is not, fallible. It is a contradiction. The Pope, if infallible, can no more speak error than a triangle can have four sides.

The proper question is whether or not the Pope is infallible.

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Well I must be going. If I fail to answer follow up questions be assured that it is nothing against you. I just won’t have access to a computer. Besides my replies have been "unhelpful’ to the OP, so it is best I stop wasting his time.

God bless

 

[Student09]

Well I must be going. If I fail to answer follow up questions be assured that it is nothing against you. I just won’t have access to a computer. Besides my replies have been "unhelpful’ to the OP, so it is best I stop wasting his time.

God bless

I’m sorry! Maybe I am just not understanding. Thanks for trying, though.

 

[hellopeople]

I’m sorry! Maybe I am just not understanding. Thanks for trying, though.

In my opinion you can’t have it both ways. IF the pope is infallible, he is being swayed by the holy spirit, and thus he does not have free will. If the pope does have free will, then he can’t be infallible because the choices would be up to him and not the holy spirit. Other people have said that the holy spirit will guide the people to elect a pope that won’t make errors BUT that means that the people who were electing the pope did not have free will when electing him. For the holy spirit to guide anything means that God is interfering with free will. I don’t think it can be any other way.

 

[diggerdomer]

What is the source of the pope’s infallibility?

God (Christ)

 

[diggerdomer]

If it is all free will, then there is room for error. In my opinion either the pope does not have free will when speaking infallibly, or he isn’t really speaking infallibly. You can’t have it both ways IMO.

The Pope has free will (as all humans do). The Church can teach infallibly. Both of those statements are taught by the Catholic Church.

What, more exactly, is your difficulty with these teachings?

 

[diggerdomer]

Read my post #7. How can someone who is infallible be able to speak error (in faith and morals)? It can’t possibly be otherwise they would not be infallible. An infallible person who can speak error is a contradiction. Again it has nothing to do with free will. The question should be whether or not the Pope is infallible (in faith and morals). If he is, then he cannot possibly speak error (in faith and morals) otherwise he would not be infallible. It has nothing to do with free will anymore than my inability to turn a triangle into a square limits my free will. If it is a triangle it is not a square, if it is a square it is not a triangle. Even if I really really wanted the triangle to be a square. If the Pope can speak error he is not infallible. If the Pope is infallible he cannot speak error. It has nothing to do with free will. The discussion should be whether or not the Pope is infallible.

God bless you

No human is, simply, infallible. Only God is without error. The Catholic Church does not teach that the Pope (or any human or group of humans) is/are infallible.