Does papal infallibility interfere with free will?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Student09
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
kepha1 said:
Even if Satan himself were to somehow get elected Pope it would be impossible for him to use Papal Infallibility to change dogma. This has actually been tested when Pope Vigilius came to power in the 6th century, after killing the previous Pope, and tried to bring the Church into heresy. Once he sat in the Chair of Peter something came over him and he could not go through with the plan. The dogma of the Church was protected.
Click to expand...
The thing that came over him, was it the Holy Spirit?

So do you agree with JohnAlexander (post # 77) that the Pope, through an action of the Holy Spirit, would lose his free will if he were to attempt (intentional or not) to teach an untruth?

I think that is the clarification the OP is looking for.
 
hellopeople said:
If the pope has complete free will, then he can teach error. If he is being guided by the Holy spirit, then his free will is being impeded and he does not have free will. You can’t have it both ways.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Pope can teach error. No, being led by the Holy Spirit does not abrogate free will. Maybe you can’t have it both ways, but the Church can.
 
diggerdomer said:
Yes, the Pope can teach error. No, being led by the Holy Spirit does not abrogate free will. Maybe you can’t have it both ways, but the Church can.
Click to expand...
But can the Pope teach error when he defines that teaching as an infallible truth?
If not, why not?
 
diggerdomer said:
Yes, the Pope can teach error. No, being led by the Holy Spirit does not abrogate free will. Maybe you can’t have it both ways, but the Church can.
Click to expand...
Can the Pope teach error when he is pronouncing something as infallible? And if he is being led by the Holy Spirit, how do you know he is following it? What if he is being led by the Spirit and then chooses to go against it…that is possible in your scenario and would definitely make him fallible, right?
 
hellopeople said:
Can the Pope teach error when he is pronouncing something as infallible? And if he is being led by the Holy Spirit, how do you know he is following it? What if he is being led by the Spirit and then chooses to go against it…that is possible in your scenario and would definitely make him fallible, right?
Click to expand...
The Church teaches that when the Pope teaches something pronouncing it as infallible, then it is not an error.

If the Pope is teaching something that he doesn’t declare as infallible, then it may not be infallible though it is presumed that his intention is to always teach the truth. Basically, he may be in error if not declaring a teaching infallible.

You don’t know he’s following the holy spirit, you have to trust that he does and believe that he does. The Church says that the Holy Spirit will protect the Church in this way.

According to Church teaching, if he’s being led by the holy spirit, he will choose to follow the holy spriit and not go against it.
 
Rence said:
According to Church teaching, if he’s being led by the holy spirit, he will choose to follow the holy spriit and not go against it.
Click to expand...
But if this is 100% established that the pope will do this, then he cannot have free will while doing it. If he does have free will, he can say something is infallible even when not true, thus he is not really infallible. Infallibility has to come from the Holy Spirit swaying his decisions, and if his decisions are swayed by the holy spirit, he cannot have free will. I don’t see how it can be any other way.
 
hellopeople said:
But if this is 100% established that the pope will do this, then he cannot have free will while doing it.
Click to expand...
This can only be true if one equate free will=freedom. I submit that the two are very different. The nature of infallibility is that it is a limitation on freedom, it is not a limitation on free will.
If he does have free will, he can say something is infallible even when not true, thus he is not really infallible. Infallibility has to come from the Holy Spirit swaying his decisions, and if his decisions are swayed by the holy spirit, he cannot have free will. I don’t see how it can be any other way.
Click to expand...
 
davidv said:
This can only be true if one equate free will=freedom. I submit that the two are very different. The nature of infallibility is that it is a limitation on freedom, it is not a limitation on free will.
Click to expand...
if free will is not freedom, what is it?
 
hellopeople said:
If it is all free will, then there is room for error. In my opinion either the pope does not have free will when speaking infallibly, or he isn’t really speaking infallibly. You can’t have it both ways IMO.
Click to expand...
Wasn’t Peter given insight by the Father to exclaim that Jesus was the Son of God, i.e., do you believe this interfered with his free will?
 
hellopeople said:
if free will is not freedom, what is it?
Click to expand...
Free will is the ability to make a choice.
Freedom it the ability to carry out a choice.

A good example in crime is attempted murder. In this case someone has chosen to kill someone (free will). Circumstances prevented them from carrying out their will (no freedom).
 
josie_L said:
Wasn’t Peter given insight by the Father to exclaim that Jesus was the Son of God, i.e., do you believe this interfered with his free will?
Click to expand...
No, this did not interfere with his free will. God revealed this to Peter and through his own free will he went and proclaimed it. What I am saying is that God could do that with all the popes as well (although I have never heard a pope speak in the terms “God revealed this to me”) BUT if it is their choice to proclaim it or not, or even proclaim the opposite, then they cannot be infallible. If God makes sure that the pope proclaims the truth that is revealed to him, then his free will is impeded.
 
davidv said:
Free will is the ability to make a choice.
Freedom it the ability to carry out a choice.

A good example in crime is attempted murder. In this case someone has chosen to kill someone (free will). Circumstances prevented them from carrying out their will (no freedom).
Click to expand...
So what you are saying is that God impedes on someone’s freedom by making them carry out an infallible teaching, but this does not impede on the pope’s free will?
 
hellopeople said:
So what you are saying is that God impedes on someone’s freedom by making them carry out an infallible teaching, but this does not impede on the pope’s free will?
Click to expand...
Do you really know what infallibility means? God does not make them do anything. He only prevents them to teaching untruths. There is no impeding the will. They can choose to be as godless as they would like, they just wouldn’t be permitted to teach error, no matter how much error they would practice.
 
davidv said:
Do you really know what infallibility means? God does not make them do anything. He only prevents them to teaching untruths. There is no impeding the will. They can choose to be as godless as they would like, they just wouldn’t be permitted to teach error, no matter how much error they would practice.
Click to expand...
What if they will to teach an error? Then what?
 
davidv said:
Do you really know what infallibility means? God does not make them do anything. He only prevents them to teaching untruths. There is no impeding the will. They can choose to be as godless as they would like, they just wouldn’t be permitted to teach error, no matter how much error they would practice.
Click to expand...
Then they don’t have free will. IF I am not able to teach something, my free will is impeded.
 
hellopeople said:
Then they don’t have free will. IF I am not able to teach something, my free will is impeded.
Click to expand...
Not true, please be consistent with definitions.
You are always free to will anything you want. You just don’t always have the freedom to carry it out.
 
hellopeople said:
In my opinion you can’t have it both ways. IF the pope is infallible, he is being swayed by the holy spirit, and thus he does not have free will. If the pope does have free will, then he can’t be infallible because the choices would be up to him and not the holy spirit. Other people have said that the holy spirit will guide the people to elect a pope that won’t make errors BUT that means that the people who were electing the pope did not have free will when electing him. For the holy spirit to guide anything means that God is interfering with free will. I don’t think it can be any other way.
Click to expand...
Is it possible everyone misunderstands the “of his own free will” part?

Is it not possible that someone could put a gun to the pope’s head, kidnap his sister, drug him, blackmail him, or in some other way influence him?

I see the chance of faithful Catholics being duped by a phoney infallible papal statement as slim to zilch.

As I understand it,CS Lewis never “poped” because he was worried that some such phoney infallible statement could possibly happen in the future.

I wonder what he thinks now?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top