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Hodos
Guest
He would probably dig the song by that name though.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
It is ringing in my head now.
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Hodos
Guest
Mission Accomplished.
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AugustTherese
Guest
You want oral tradition in the form of an epistle that you can see and read? Well, then it wouldn’t be oral tradition but an epistle.Provide a quote of a parable from Jesus that wasn’t captured in scripture. Or feel free to provide a Petrine or Pauline passage that wasn’t quoted in scripture. I’ll wait. Also, provide evidence that said quote can be traced back to the apostles or to Christ.
No! The teachings by word of mouth and epistle was! Why do you presume that anything taught by tradition is ‘additional’ to that which is materially found in Scripture?The point is, I keep hearing all these grand claims to additional revelation in order to set scripture aside, but the scripture was the objective artifact of the teaching of the apostles.
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AugustTherese
Guest
Read the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils. Do they merely quote Scripture alone? No! They quote the tradition of the Fathers that properly interpret the true meaning of the Scriptures. The Council of Trent used Tradition and Scripture to anathematize a gross misinterpretation of St. Paul’s epistles.Well, again, elucidate the oral tradition that we are missing. Paul’s oral gospel didn’t contradict what he wrote in his epistles. If your argument is that there was additional revelation, provide the quotes from Paul that have been defined by the Church that are not located in his epistles.
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Hodos
Guest
Read the Augsberg Confession. So do we. We just place primacy on scripture over tradition. And again, what part of what I said in this thread are you disputing since you are making the statement that I am providing a gross misinterpretation of Paul? Stay on topic sport.Read the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils. Do they merely quote Scripture alone? No! They quote the tradition of the Fathers that properly interpret the true meaning of the Scriptures. The Council of Trent used Tradition and Scripture to anathematize a gross misinterpretation of St. Paul’s epistles.
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Hodos
Guest
No, I am just trying to have you confirm what oral statement of Paul’s that you can quote that isn’t provided in scripture since you keep claiming insider knowledge to some revelation that is outside of scripture handed down by Paul.You want oral tradition in the form of an epistle that you can see and read? Well, then it wouldn’t be oral tradition but an epistle.
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jcrichton
Guest
There’s no need of special conjuring…
Scriptures speak clearly about the Unfolding.
It is developed right from the inception of the Church: Oral Teaching during at least the first decade, Oral Teaching along with references to Old Covenant’s Writings, Oral Teaching along with New Covenant’s Writings, Oral Teaching never replaced by Sacred Writings, Definition and Corrections in the Life of the Church placed in Writings, Doctrine and Practice in the Life of the Church placed in Writings, loads upon loads of references to Church practice that is not placed in Writings, Dogmatic Pronouncements right in the Sacred Writings, Development of Doctrine, Church Hierarchy, and Practice set in Sacred Wrings…
Yep, no special schooling needed to see, from Scriptures, that the Church did not operate in a vacuum for decades till the first New Covenant Writing was inked and that the Church did not simply reread the Gospel and other Apostolic Writing as the sole means to Bring to the world the Good News!
Maran atha!
Angel
Scriptures speak clearly about the Unfolding.
It is developed right from the inception of the Church: Oral Teaching during at least the first decade, Oral Teaching along with references to Old Covenant’s Writings, Oral Teaching along with New Covenant’s Writings, Oral Teaching never replaced by Sacred Writings, Definition and Corrections in the Life of the Church placed in Writings, Doctrine and Practice in the Life of the Church placed in Writings, loads upon loads of references to Church practice that is not placed in Writings, Dogmatic Pronouncements right in the Sacred Writings, Development of Doctrine, Church Hierarchy, and Practice set in Sacred Wrings…
Yep, no special schooling needed to see, from Scriptures, that the Church did not operate in a vacuum for decades till the first New Covenant Writing was inked and that the Church did not simply reread the Gospel and other Apostolic Writing as the sole means to Bring to the world the Good News!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
No; rather, you place primacy on the interpretation of Scriptures–the primacy you speak of changes according to the “founding” element, be it Luther, Calvin or whatever came along throughout the decades. The difference between the Jehovah Witnesses and others is that the Jehovah Witnesses make abrupt changes to their “primacy” and at times bury it and reincarnate it with contrasting understandings and values.We just place primacy on scripture over tradition
Maran atha!
Angel
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Francis
Guest
No,he is doings things accordingly, as inspired by the holy Spirit as the will of god in the present situation where he’s giving preaching the word of god according with prudence and wisdom than personally baptizing people as other disciples are baptizing.
2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish; 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish; 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
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jcrichton
Guest
The problem is that you refuse to accept St. Paul at his own word:No, I am just trying to have you confirm what oral statement of Paul’s that you can quote that isn’t provided in scripture since you keep claiming insider knowledge to some revelation that is outside of scripture handed down by Paul.
St. Paul commands Christians to hold on to the Traditions Taught by the Apostles–both the Oral and Written Traditions; notably, St. Peter pronounces that the Written Traditions of the Apostles are Sacred Scriptures (get it?). Hence, you (non-Catholics) are rejecting what St. Paul and St. Peter Taught in light of your own traditions (whatever founder you may have had or whatever “inspiration” you claim from the Holy Spirit to set against what is Written).14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2–DRA)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2–KJV)
Since you have divorced yourself from the Church, you lack Apostolic Succession; hence, you can only rely on what you term “primacy” which said/set definition, if we were to use non-Catholics terms, is “extra Biblical.”
Maran atha!
Angel
Maran atha!
Angel
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AugustTherese
Guest
You mean the Augsburg Confession; I have. While there are some correct interpretations and proper uses of Tradition, there are some misinterpretations.Read the Augsberg Confession. So do we.
You place your interpretation of Scripture over Tradition. And since Scripture alone never heeds or promotes this novel idea of placing Scripture over Tradition, you are actually placing a 16th century tradition over Scripture; ‘sola scriptura’ is a tradition under the pretext of only using Scripture.We just place primacy on scripture over tradition
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Francis
Guest
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm
ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
74 God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth":29 that is, of Christ Jesus.30 Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth:
God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.31
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32
In the apostolic preaching. . .
76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36
78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38
79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
74 God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth":29 that is, of Christ Jesus.30 Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth:
God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.31
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32
In the apostolic preaching. . .
76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
- orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";33
- in writing "by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing".34
77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36
78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38
79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
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Francis
Guest
1 Corinthians 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you.2 Timothy 2:2 and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.
2 Thessalonians 3:66 Now we command you, beloved,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they received from us.
2 Thessalonians 3:66 Now we command you, beloved,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they received from us.
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RobynP
Guest
But to be fair, don’t all Christians believe things that are not found in Scripture?I absolutely acknowledge that not all of Jesus words were captured in scripture. So given that you are making the claim that we are missing something, please fill us in. Provide a quote of a parable from Jesus that wasn’t captured in scripture. Or feel free to provide a Petrine or Pauline passage that wasn’t quoted in scripture. I’ll wait. Also, provide evidence that said quote can be traced back to the apostles or to Christ. The point is, I keep hearing all these grand claims to additional revelation in order to set scripture aside, but the scripture was the objective artifact of the teaching of the apostles.
I mean…is there anything explicitly in Scripture that condemns polygamy? Or sexual relations outside of marriage? Or abortion? Let’s be honest, there are parts of Scripture that seem pretty ambiguous and even down right indifferent to the life of the unborn, and if you talk to certain sects they can provide all sorts of arguments from Scripture in favor of polygamy. Jesus certainly never addressed either of those issues.
But would you say that because Scripture is unclear there is room for legitimate disagreement on these issues among Christians, and that faithful Christians can support abortion or polygamy? Why or why not?
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