Does penance have any place in Protestantism?

[adf417]

I understand that Catholics don’t see it this way. However, this is what Protestants see as the practical outcome of Catholic practice. But you are right, I’m not Catholic, so I am uninformed in the ways that Catholics understand their practices and beliefs. It can be terribly hard to see things from the point of view of other churches and traditions.

Im sorry i misunderstood your position. It sounded like you were explaining the Catholic view point which you seem to be pretty good at.

As for your other questions, they seem to have been answered pretty will. If not please let us know.

Peace!!!

 

[JonNC]

HomeschoolDad:

Would a Protestant ever feel any need to do penance for their sins?

Not the protestants I’ve ever spoken to, they think Jesus did it all for them on the cross.

“Go and sin no more.” ISTM that conforming one’s ways to that of Christ, dying to sin and being raised in Christ is the course of action we should take.
Is it penance to give up sin?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

St. Jerome was not joking, nor the magisterium, when “Repent” was translated “Do Penance” in the Scriptures

This is the “one big thing” that jumps out at you, when you compare the King James to the Douay-Rheims, both of which came out at about the same time. For Protestants, “repent” means confess your sin, repudiate it, and simply lie back and accept Christ’s suffering and death as full satisfaction for it, once and for all. For Catholics, “do penance” means yes, do all that, but you also have to do your part — there is still temporal satisfaction to be made, either “the easy way” here on earth, or “the hard way” in purgatory. Immediately after baptism, yes, the slate is wiped clean, but ordinarily, you have your whole life in front of you, and unless you die very soon, you are going to sin, and sin again and again. You resolve not to, but human weakness will get the best of you.

First of all, you’re free to show remorse to God any time without waiting for a priest to invite you to do it. A lot of us do penance frequently and not just after we’ve confessed.

Penance can and should be done often, every day of your life. As TBS points out, it is not limited to that token penance you do after the priest assigns it to you in confession.

 

[Wannano]

BigRon:

HomeschoolDad:

Would a Protestant ever feel any need to do penance for their sins?

Not the protestants I’ve ever spoken to, they think Jesus did it all for them on the cross.

“Go and sin no more.” ISTM that conforming one’s ways to that of Christ, dying to sin and being raised in Christ is the course of action we should take.
Is it penance to give up sin?

I have looked and pondered on your statement here and am struck by the realization that although you and I come from different traditions, what you have stated here is the central message of the teaching of Jesus and something we both have been taught. How we conform to Christ and individually die to sin is as varied as our own personalities and experience. I am still thinking on the penance concept.

 

[JonNC]

I have looked and pondered on your statement here and am struck by the realization that although you and I come from different traditions, what you have stated here is the central message of the teaching of Jesus and something we both have been taught. How we conform to Christ and individually die to sin is as varied as our own personalities and experience. I am still thinking on the penance concept.

Thanks.
I’ve felt for many years now that Paul’s statement that the wrong I would not do, I do, the right I would do, that I do not describes me.
For me, giving up everyday the wrong that I would not do is a response to the grace that forgives. That seems to me a form of penance, the Catholic definition notwithstanding. It isn’t an earning of grace (an oxymoron), but with the guidance of the Spirit, a desire to conform to the one who forgives.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

[For some reason, my home computer won’t allow me to copy and paste, so I have had to wait until I had access to another computer later this afternoon - HSD]

WRT Colossians 1:24, I think the best — and Catholic — thing to do, is to look to the Fathers of the Church and what they had to say about this verse, per Haydock’s commentary:

Ver. 24. And fill up those things . . . in my flesh for his body, which is the church. [5] Nothing was wanting in the sufferings or merits of Christ, for a sufficient and superabundant redemption of mankind, and therefore he adds, for his body, which is the church, that his sufferings were wanting, and are to be endured by the example of Christ by the faithful, who are members of a crucified head. See S. Chrys. and S. Aug. Wi. — Wanting. There is no want in the sufferings of Christ himself as head; but many sufferings are still wanting, or are still to come in his body, the Church, and his members, the faithful. Ch. — S. Chrysostom here observes that Jesus Christ loves us so much, that he is not content merely to suffer in his own person, but he wishes also to suffer in his members; and thus we fill up what is wanting of the sufferings of Christ. S. Chrys. — The wisdom, the will, the justice of Jesus Christ, requireth and ordaineth that his body and members should be companions of his sufferings, as they expect to be companions of his glory; that so suffering with him, and after his example, they may apply to their own wants and to the necessities of others the merits and satisfaction of Jesus Christ, which application is what is wanting, and what we are permitted to supply by the sacraments and sacrifice of the new law.

I think everyone should stop and reflect for a moment, that Haydock’s commentaries are available free online, whereas it hasn’t been too long ago, that you would have had to buy a very expensive book to have Haydock at your fingertips. (For Protestants, I would explain that Haydock is kind of the Catholic version of Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance.)

We are living in the salad days of apologetics, with all this “free stuff” available without so much as having to leave one’s house. One huge solar storm or well-placed EMP blast by an aggressor could wipe out our access to this kind of thing for a long time. Make hay while the sun shines…

 

[GKMotley]

You have a point with Haydock.

In general and almost exclusively, for over 60 years I’ve accumulated books. The fragility of the net, or my access to it, has only increased my buying. Usually facilitated by the net.

Of course, there is the thought of physical storage space. Or a match.

 

[JM3]

A splinter at a time

 

[ltwin]

For Protestants, “repent” means confess your sin, repudiate it, and simply lie back and accept Christ’s suffering and death as full satisfaction for it, once and for all.

You make Protestants sound so lazy, but it isn’t reflective of the Protestantism I grew up with at all. I was taught that we had to die to self and pursue holiness, without which no one will see God.

The difference is that we were taught this was the result of Christ’s love molding and transforming us into who he desires us to be; Christ working in us and through us. Loving and forgiving those who hurt us, reconciling with someone we hurt, helping those in need, etc. etc. are things we do because this is how we obey God, imitate Christ and love other people. We don’t do these things to remove temporal punishment. All punishment for sin was addressed on the Cross in Christ.

 

[Vico]

Would a Protestant ever feel any need to do penance for their sins?
…

Lutheran Service Book (2006):

O Almighty God, merciful Father, I a poor, miserable sinner, confess to you all my sins and iniquities,
with which I have ever offended you and justly deserved your punishment now and forever. But I am heartily sorry for them and sincerely repent of them, and I pray you of your boundless mercy,
and for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of your beloved son, Jesus Christ,
to be gracious and merciful to me, a poor sinful being.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Interesting thread.

If you forget sins – I mean legitimately forget, just cite what you do know and tell the priest I’d like to include anything i may not be remembering. All is forgiven, it is that simple. Don’t bug out like Luther and leave the Church over scrupulosity. If something pops up in your head afterwards, try to include it in your next visit. God is merciful. Trust in it.

On a related note. I had an KJVO- IFB trying to save my Catholic soul months ago. And he tells me, “do you honestly think you can become perfect and sinless”? I said no, but you can get close. You can improve in your problem areas. To say otherwise is pure laziness and spiritual apathy. He seemed perplexed by my response. Not all protestants, but some, like this fellow, almost seem to view repentance/penance and works as negative things. Then they go on and on about Romans 3:28, as if that is the only verse in the scriptures that matter.

 

[TNMan]

This is my understanding of the concept of “penance” but have never been able to put it into words.

 

[Hodos]

Would a Protestant ever feel any need to do penance for their sins?

The answer to this question is irrelevant. What I feel is separate from what scripture teaches.

If I am understanding the classical Protestant position, Jesus took care of all sin, and all punishment for sin, past, present, and future, by His passion and death on the cross.

Christ made atonement for your sin (guilt and punishment). He is the means by which all in the Church are reconciled to God and to one another.

That being said, there are times when in order to reconcile myself to my brother, I would do what I can to recompense them for the harm that I have done in sinning against them. The purpose of this is not to obtain forgiveness, but out of love for my brother I would want to make them whole again. So for example, when my brother was a kid and he shoplifted a pair of sandals from our corner drug store, my mom made him bring the sandals back and apologize that he might be reconciled to the store owner and provide back what he had taken to make the store owner whole again.

With regard to your quoting of Colossians, Paul is not talking about penance at all, but is talking about how in his ministry to proclaim the gospel he suffers for the sake of those he means to evangelize. It has nothing to do with trying to effect absolution, it has to do with the persecution he faces in his body in proclaiming the gospel in a world hostile to the gospel.

On a more homely note, I have observed in my past working life, how Protestants were able to eat abundantly on Good Friday, and joyfully to partake of meat with great gusto, without the slightest pang of “this isn’t quite right”. To them, it seems to be just another “TGIF”.

This also has nothing to do with forgiveness of sins. Fasting does not provide you with forgiveness or absolution. It is a spiritual discipline used to help discipline yourself against temptations of the flesh. And many Protestants do engage in fasting during Lent, or Daniel Fasts, etc.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

For Protestants, “repent” means confess your sin, repudiate it, and simply lie back and accept Christ’s suffering and death as full satisfaction for it, once and for all.

I do not think Protestants are “so lazy”. It all boils down to whether you believe that it is necessary to do penance — freely chosen sacrifices, sufferings, prayers, in short, something that you “reach in and take out of yourself”, that involves just a little bit of hardship or labor — to offer to Almighty God as an atonement, or “punishment accepted”, for one’s sins committed after baptism. Catholics do believe this is necessary. The general consensus of Protestantism is that you do not have to do this, in fact, it would be pointless, because “Jesus did it all” on the cross. You can, and should, “die to self and pursue holiness”, not necessarily to make satisfaction for your sins, but to become a better Christian. You can do any of number of things to “become a better Christian” without these things necessarily being penitential.

We don’t do these things to remove temporal punishment. All punishment for sin was addressed on the Cross in Christ.

This sums up the Protestant view. Thank you.

Lutheran Service Book (2006):

O Almighty God, merciful Father, I a poor, miserable sinner, confess to you all my sins and iniquities,
with which I have ever offended you and justly deserved your punishment now and forever. But I am heartily sorry for them and sincerely repent of them, and I pray you of your boundless mercy,
and for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of your beloved son, Jesus Christ,
to be gracious and merciful to me, a poor sinful being.

This is a beautiful prayer, and there is not a thing un-Catholic about it, but it does not have a penitential element, nor, with its being a Lutheran prayer, would I expect it to.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

That being said, there are times when in order to reconcile myself to my brother, I would do what I can to recompense them for the harm that I have done in sinning against them. The purpose of this is not to obtain forgiveness, but out of love for my brother I would want to make them whole again.

Being reconciled to one’s brother, noble though that is, is not “penance”. Penance is a Catholic concept of, as I said above, doing things to make satisfaction to Almighty God for the deserved punishment of one’s sins, and to mitigate this punishment. Essentially, it is getting one’s purgatory and temporal punishment out of the way in this life — where it is far more meritorious, and where one can grow in holiness — than leaving it undone until then, where it will be far more difficult, less meritorious, and no growth in holiness will be possible. In short, God is more satisfied with penances joyfully and voluntarily embraced and accepted in this life, than with the involuntary penances you will have to do in the next life — assuming you die in the state of grace and heaven is open to you, just not until you have been purified. If you die outside of the state of grace, it’s “game over”, and I think we all know what that means.

Fasting does not provide you with forgiveness or absolution. It is a spiritual discipline used to help discipline yourself against temptations of the flesh. And many Protestants do engage in fasting during Lent, or Daniel Fasts, etc.

Fasting is done by Catholics both for penitential reasons, and for the very good spiritual disciplines you cite. The minimal fasts required of Catholics — two days a year (Ash Wednesday and Good Friday), and very, very mild at that, one full meal and two half-meals — are nothing compared to the fasts you describe. They are mere “token fasts”.

 

[Vico]

…
This is a beautiful prayer, and there is not a thing un-Catholic about it, but it does not have a penitential element, nor, with its being a Lutheran prayer, would I expect it to.

By Oxford Dictionary it does (“I am heartily sorry for them and sincerely repent of them”). Can you explain more precisely what you mean?

• penitential, adjective
  1. relating to or expressing penitence or penance.
• penitence, noun
  1. the action of feeling or showing sorrow and regret for having done wrong; repentance

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Penance is a Catholic concept of, as I said above, doing things to make satisfaction to Almighty God for the deserved punishment of one’s sins, and to mitigate this punishment. Essentially, it is getting one’s purgatory and temporal punishment out of the way in this life — where it is far more meritorious, and where one can grow in holiness — than leaving it undone until then, where it will be far more difficult, less meritorious, and no growth in holiness will be possible.

Where are you getting this definition from? Penance can be done for an indulgence to shorten purgatory or remove temporal punishment, but that’s not the only kind of penance out there, nor is it even the main reason for penance. I think you’re thinking only in terms of the penance assigned after confession, which gave rise to the concept of indulgences which could be obtained in place of the penances back then which were very onerous things like travel to the Holy Land and back.

The dictionary definition of penance, copied from Google, is

voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

And that’s all it is. If I do some penance right now, it can be for me to show repentance for my sins, it can be for me to offer up for the sins of other poor sinners or for the world, and it’s not necessarily to shorten my own purgatory time or even that of others. It could just be me offering up to God on behalf of the living world or to save a living person from hell. (I can’t shorten a living person’s purgatory time, other than my own, but I can help save another living person from hell by doing prayers and penance for them.)

Example: last December we were all called (several times) to do penance for the abuses that went on at the Amazon Synod with the Pachamama to try to make it up to God that humans had behaved so wrongly. This obviously isn’t our personal sin if we weren’t there and didn’t bow to Pachamama, so it’s not to repent of our own sin or shorten our own Purgatory time, but we are doing penance for the sins of others, and obviously not to shorten their purgatory time if they’re still alive, as we cannot do that for a living person other than ourselves. It’s done to save sinners, to console God, and to try to avert his wrath from the fallen world (also the message of several major approved Marian apparitions).

 

[TULIPed]

For Protestants, “repent” means confess your sin, repudiate it, and simply lie back and accept Christ’s suffering and death as full satisfaction for it, once and for all.

Perhaps for some. Reformed Protestants are trained to think of the word “repent” as to completely “turn around” or “turn away from” sin. In other words when we repent, we physically move away from what we were doing sinfully and willfully on our own, and pivot 180 degrees towards Christ and His will for us. Repentance always involves dying to our sinful selves. Death is (often) painful.

To take it a step further, Reformed Christians look for true repentance as a sign that the Holy Spirit is active in our lives. We do this because we know that true repentance only happens with and through the grace and activity of the Holy Spirit. If we don’t see our lives being (very, very slowly - for me at least!) conformed to that of Christ, we must ask ourselves about the veracity of our faith.

 

[Hodos]

Being reconciled to one’s brother, noble though that is, is not “penance”. Penance is a Catholic concept of, as I said above, doing things to make satisfaction to Almighty God for the deserved punishment of one’s sins, and to mitigate this punishment.

Right, and the Bible states that Christ became the curse of the law in our place and reconciled us to himself by his blood. This is also why I did not call the actions I take to repair the relationship with my brother as “penance” although depending on your definition (and there are multiple definitions of penance within Catholicism and even being used within this forum thread ) this example was relevant to the conversation as a means of pointing to the scriptural examples of reconciliation.

Fasting is done by Catholics both for penitential reasons, and for the very good spiritual disciplines you cite. The minimal fasts required of Catholics — two days a year (Ash Wednesday and Good Friday), and very, very mild at that, one full meal and two half-meals — are nothing compared to the fasts you describe. They are mere “token fasts”.

Our confessions would reject the penitential benefits of fasting (meaning that by fasting I merit forgiveness of sin) for the reason stated above, but would affirm them as useful disciplines in the training of one’s body for the purpose of sanctification.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

The dictionary definition of penance, copied from Google, is

voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

Well, I would look to a Catholic definition of penance, not necessarily a dictionary definition (they could be different), but I do see, from your explanation, that purgatorial penance is not the only kind of “penance”. I knew that, I just had a kind of “tunnel vision”, reasoning that since Protestants don’t have a concept of purgatory, nor of having to make some kind of tangible satisfaction to Almighty God for the punishment due their sins — since “Jesus did it all” — they then do not do what we would call “penance” for any other reasons. Clearly they do, at least in some fashion. I don’t think they offer their sufferings and sacrifices, putting them in some kind of celestial “penance bank” to atone to God for their sins and the sins of others, but they do have some kind of at least partial concept of penance, even if they don’t call it that.

I don’t deny for a moment that penance can be offered and performed for reasons other than mitigating one’s own just punishment that will be exacted either in this life or, failing that, in purgatory. Catholics can and do offer all sorts of atonement, penance, call it what you will, for the sins of the whole world and the sins of others, both living and dead. We have a very elaborated concept of “consoling God” that, if it exists in Protestantism, I’ve never heard of it. But I do think that all Christians have a concept of “the wrath of God” and that He can, and may, punish the world in general, or evil societies in particular, in the “here and now”. We need look no further than Sodom and Gomorrah, or the whole world as in the case of the Flood. Even no less an authority than Jack Chick’s publishing house assures us that the next worldwide chastisement will be by fire.