Does prayer get rationalized?

[johnnyjones]

Does prayer do anything, and when the answer is yes, is it filled with rationalizations?

 

[OxygenMan]

What do you mean?

 

[catholictiger]

Does prayer do anything, and when the answer is yes, is it filled with rationalizations?

I’m not sure what you mean, but prayer isn’t just about asking asking asking asking for God. Prayer’s primary focus should be a growing in a relationship with Jesus Christ and the Father who only Jesus Christ is the Father reveled.

 

[bzkoss236]

I think he is asking, as I’ve heard before, if people’s prayers become a sort of self-fulfilled prophecy, such as if you pray for something, and you get it, then you “rationalize” it by saying that it was because of your prayer.

My response is, that yes, prayer works, but not in the way you think. We don’t always get what we want, but assuredly we get what we need. For those who pray because of suffering, the means of their suffering may have an end that is for good and the will of God, but others can be brought out of suffering. For those who pray out of selfishness, they will likely not “get their prayer answered” at least not in the way they expect. If you ask for something, expecting a yes, and you get a no, that is still an answer.

 

[OxygenMan]

Many prayers aren’t really for the gain or loss of something, also. Many prayers are said to glorify God and to give thanks. Others are attempts to discern God’s desires. Only some prayers are actually asking for something.

 

[Fomalhaut]

What I am wondering is: is prayer meant to have an actual effect ? If a little girl is really very close to death, you pray for her and she survives, do you think she would have died without your prayers ?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I’m not sure what you mean, but prayer isn’t just about asking asking asking asking for God. Prayer’s primary focus should be a growing in a relationship with Jesus Christ and the Father who only Jesus Christ is the Father reveled.

I think the OP is asking whether or not God will act to change the outcome of a situation in response to some one engaging in intercessory prayer or whether people make assumptions that God acted on their behalf in response to the request for intercession. Even with the understanding that prayer is for more than requesting intercession I don’t think that information by itself addresses his question.

 

[johnnyjones]

My point about rationalization is that, if your a believer in prayer, no matter what the outcome of the desired intent (of prayer), you will say this is what was supposed to happen.

You have some (as already posted) people say, “well prayer is not really for this or that” or 'it is to change you" or “wherever your heart is” that will be the outcome. Point being, seems like a lot of variables. If I or many others are praying for the recovery of a child that gets abducted by some nut job, and the it turns out the chld was beaten and killed, the next thing to say about those prayers is…what? Answers that rationalize the outcome?

I am not putting down prayer, believe me I pray. I am simply questioning the facets of it.

 

[JRKH]

Prayer is just one among many things that are not fully understood. Yes there is a lot of rationalization because in many cases those involved have not fully understood the journey and embraced it. Instead they are trying to define, clarify, understand and utilize parts without actually recognizing the need to see and fit together the whole.

All of our lives must be about conforming ourselves to Christ. Prayer is a critical part of this but looked at in isolation it becomes distorted. This is where all sorts of “rationalization” can begin to come in.
Looked at in the total picture, prayer simply becomes “conversing” with our God as we would someone standing next to us who we respect - revere - greatly and from who we hope to obtain good counsel. So we speak to God and we thank Him. We tell Him of our Love and we ask Him to help and guide us. This is the essence of prayer as we have received it from our Lord. Of course if we have specific requests that is fine too…but these are only secondary to seeking God’s counsel and guidance.
Then - having poured out ourselves to Him…we leave the rest up up Him accepting with grace all of His will for us. All we have to do is live our normal life in Love.

Peace
James

 

[ricmat]

I think the OP is asking whether or not God will act to change the outcome of a situation in response to some one engaging in intercessory prayer or whether people make assumptions that God acted on their behalf in response to the request for intercession. Even with the understanding that prayer is for more than requesting intercession I don’t think that information by itself addresses his question.

What I am wondering is: is prayer meant to have an actual effect ? If a little girl is really very close to death, you pray for her and she survives, do you think she would have died without your prayers ?

Here are some thoughts.

1. Praying (petition) is always good for the person praying, because at a minimum it presupposes that God is greater than we are. And God loves to hear our voices.
2. If we pray for the same thing that God Himself wills, then our prayers will be answered favorably.
3. If we pray for something that God does not will, our prayers will be answered unfavorably. Since God knows better than we do what is good for the person being prayed for, it wouldn’t make sense for God to put our preferences above His. And in fact we wouldn’t want God to put our preferences above His.
4. So the way to pray is with love (for the person prayed for), but to accept whatever the result is. We try to ask “in the name of God / Jesus” for things. “In the name of…” means that our wills are conformed to God’s will. Which may or may not be true despite our attempts. And difficult though it may be, we should willingly accept the outcome as being somehow what was best for the person prayed for, even if it wasn’t what we prayed for. That would indicate that our minds were not in fact conformed to the divine will.
5. Does prayer change things? Yes, it changes the person praying. And the outcome changes as well, so long as that it was God’s will to change the outcome as a result of our prayers.

Excuse me if this seems incoherent. I didn’t sleep well last night, and I’m hastily writing this before venturing forth for my daily duties!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

1. If we pray for the same thing that God Himself wills, then our prayers will be answered favorably.
2. If we pray for something that God does not will, our prayers will be answered unfavorably. Since God knows better than we do what is good for the person being prayed for, it wouldn’t make sense for God to put our preferences above His. And in fact we wouldn’t want God to put our preferences above His.

In reading that I can’t help but think of a phrase attributed to Henry Ford about the model-T. “You can get it in any color you want as long as it’s black.” In otherwords it sounds like you are saying that request for intercession have no impact so a person needs to adjust to the already decided outcome/destiny. Or in terms of Henry Ford’s Model-T, “Don’t ask for cars that are not black.”

 

[hazcompat]

Prayer begins in heaven.

Peace

 

[ricmat]

In reading that I can’t help but think of a phrase attributed to Henry Ford about the model-T. “You can get it in any color you want as long as it’s black.” In otherwords it sounds like you are saying that request for intercession have no impact so a person needs to adjust to the already decided outcome/destiny. Or in terms of Henry Ford’s Model-T, “Don’t ask for cars that are not black.”

Right.

And if you went to Henry and said “I want a car that will explode, crash and burn the first time I turn the ignition key” he would not have sold such a car to you. In your better interest.

Thankfully, God is not a prayer in / results out vending machine.

 

[johnnyjones]

Here are some thoughts.

1. Praying (petition) is always good for the person praying, because at a minimum it presupposes that God is greater than we are. And God loves to hear our voices.
2. If we pray for the same thing that God Himself wills, then our prayers will be answered favorably.
3. If we pray for something that God does not will, our prayers will be answered unfavorably. Since God knows better than we do what is good for the person being prayed for, it wouldn’t make sense for God to put our preferences above His. And in fact we wouldn’t want God to put our preferences above His.
4. So the way to pray is with love (for the person prayed for), but to accept whatever the result is. We try to ask “in the name of God / Jesus” for things. “In the name of…” means that our wills are conformed to God’s will. Which may or may not be true despite our attempts. And difficult though it may be, we should willingly accept the outcome as being somehow what was best for the person prayed for, even if it wasn’t what we prayed for. That would indicate that our minds were not in fact conformed to the divine will.
5. Does prayer change things? Yes, it changes the person praying. And the outcome changes as well, so long as that it was God’s will to change the outcome as a result of our prayers.

Excuse me if this seems incoherent. I didn’t sleep well last night, and I’m hastily writing this before venturing forth for my daily duties!

I would surmize that if one is in sin, practicing a mortal sin, prayer would be ineffective.

My view of prayer is that you ask God for what you or others need, and throw your hands up (figuritively) and leave it in Gods hands because ultimately His will will be done anyway.

Again though, whatever the outcome, life or death, good or bad, we will end up attributing the event to the will of God. Could we rationalize these events? I think so, but I don’t know for sure.